NL/AL MVP Discussion: Donaldson wins AL, Harper wins NL

[GIN ANTONIC]

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/11/19/awards-watch-mvp-josh-donaldson-mike-trout-bryce-harper

Donaldson ran into just three outs on the bases all year compared to Trout’s 13. Donaldson was a perfect 6-for-6 in stolen base attempts and took the extra base (advancing two bases on a single, three bases on a double or advancing at all on a fly out, wild pitch, passed ball, balk or defensive indifference) 57 times. By comparison, Trout was caught on seven of his 18 steal attempts and took the extra base just 50 times. But Trout took the extra base on a hit in 65% of his opportunities to do so compared to just 38% for Donaldson. Again, the opportunities provided by their teammates masked Trout’s superiority.

 

[Terry Yake]

Again, Donaldson was dealing with an injury for a lot of the season as well.

he's been dealing with injuries since around the AS break LAST season. big reason why his numbers took a drop in the second half of 2014

dude's a warrior

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I am really happy Donaldson won as a Jays fan and I don't think him winning is ridiculous like some in this thread make it seem but if I were to take my Jays fan goggles off Trout did have a better season, offensively there is really no argument otherwise honestly. Defensively and baserunning Donaldson was better but was that enough to close the gap between them offensively? I would say no but I also don't think Donaldson winning is egregious they were very very close.

I don't think anyone thinks it's ridiculous, just that a lot of the arguments are. He had a phenomenal season and it was very MVP-worthy, but when the main arguments are how he had so many ribbies and led his team to the playoffs, it's annoying.

Also, apparently ribbies gets autocorrected to rubbish. I figure some would get a kick out of that.

 

[JS19]

I don't think anyone thinks it's ridiculous, just that a lot of the arguments are. He had a phenomenal season and it was very MVP-worthy, but when the main arguments are how he had so many ribbies and led his team to the playoffs, it's annoying.

Also, apparently ribbies gets autocorrected to rubbish. I figure some would get a kick out of that.

I agree. Those people are almost as bad as guys who only focus on WAR.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I agree. Those people are almost as bad as guys who only focus on WAR.

War is definitely not the only stat Trout has an advantage on Jd.

Donaldson is better in some himself, but not as many.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I agree. Those people are almost as bad as guys who only focus on WAR.

Most people I've seen pushing for Trout haven't even brought up WAR or at most it has been a side note in their argument. As Clowe Me said there are a lot of stats that claerly favour Trout over JD.

 

[JS19]

War is definitely not the only stat Trout has an advantage on Jd.

Donaldson is better in some himself, but not as many.

Oh no, I agree that Trout is superior to Donaldson. I'm saying people who only focus on WAR are missing the point. Just like how people say "Donaldson took the team on his shoulders!" are missing the point.

Most people I've seen pushing for Trout haven't even brought up WAR or at most it has been a side note in their argument. As Clowe Me said there are a lot of stats that claerly favour Trout over JD.

As I said to Clowe Me, I do agree that Trout is superior to Donaldson especially when looking at certain stats. It's not limited to this thread, but I've seen people use the WAR argument terribly, whether it's to justify Trout's MVP or hold it against Donaldson.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

If you guys can't see that it is at least a debate between the two, you are way too caught up in metrics.

Everyone posting the September stats like that cancels what I originally said. I already said in the post after that he rebounded in September.

By the way, the wins count the same.. but an AB in the heat of a pennant race in August/September is not the same as an AB in May.

Not to say Trout can't handle the pressure or anything, not saying that at all.. but you can't say the pressure is the same in August/September as it is in April.

"Pressure"

 

[robert terwilliger]

you know as many people are complaining that "people are only looking at war" i don't think i've mentioned it once.

it's like people already have the argument in their heads or something, i dunno.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

you know as many people are complaining that "people are only looking at war" i don't think i've mentioned it once.

it's like people already have the argument in their heads or something, i dunno.

Agreed. And I don't think anyone is the sabre community would really trumpet as a "be all, end all" stat or a tie breaker in a really close case such as this. Yeah, if we're talking about a difference of like 2.0 or more then it would be something to really look at but it's likely at that point there are other stats that are fairly obvious.

This race between between JD and Trout was really close and no one is denying it. That's why it's important to look at every stat and the context to see what they actually mean.

 

[darko]

Pretty sure that those people who mentioned WAR have also mentioned OBP, SLG, OPS, wOBA, wRC+.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

So basically we can't use stats to backup our POV......We need to use superlatives instead?

 

[Pwnasaurus]

Trevor Rosenthal got a vote.

Did the Pirates organization get a vote?

 

[Discoverer]

I'm a Jays fan, and I think if I were an impartial observer who had a vote, I would have picked Trout. But this isn't some egregious choice, like Cabrera over Trout in 2012. The differences between the two of them this year were minute, so I don't really understand why people feel so strongly one way or the other.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I'm a Jays fan, and I think if I were an impartial observer who had a vote, I would have picked Trout. But this isn't some egregious choice, like Cabrera over Trout in 2012. The differences between the two of them this year were minute, so I don't really understand why people feel so strongly one way or the other.

Likely because this isn't the first, or second time he's lost out to a player that had an inferior season.

But like you said, their differences weren't that extravagant. This is definitely outside of the top 10 in all time bad mvp choices.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Yeah, definitely not an egregious-worst-of-all-time type thing. It was VERY close but as others have mentioned, in the end I see Trout with the edge and there are plenty of solid stats to back it up.

 

[Discoverer]

Yeah, definitely not an egregious-worst-of-all-time type thing. It was VERY close but as others have mentioned, in the end I see Trout with the edge and there are plenty of solid stats to back it up.

Absolutely. And, as I just said, I probably would have picked Trout, too. But when there's a difference in WAR of something like +/- 0.5, it's really impossible to say either candidate got robbed.

This is the first time in his career that Trout actually had another legitimate contender to go up against in the MVP voting. If he had won in 2012 and 2013 like he should have, I doubt people would be complaining about this one.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

I woulda voted for Trout, but it was close. Him losing to Donaldson isn't as bad as the 2 times Cabrera beat him though.

Guy should have 4 MVPs, or at worst 2 or 3. Him losing in 2012 was a travesty, but you know Triple Crown!!1!


He's got Pujols syndrome, but at least Pujols lost to Barry freaking Bonds 4 times. The one he lost to Ryan Howard in 2006 however puts the Trout's loses to shame.

 

[robert terwilliger]

yeah look, this isn't juan gonzalez or justin morneau by any means and aside from the typical counting stat nonsense there was a definite debate, which i've debated and have no issue with someone presenting a case and backing it up like that.

there's too much rbi's, playoffs, clubhouse, etc. nonsense when it comes to the mvp every year. we should be better than that.

 

[Pwnasaurus]

The players voted Donaldson player of the year. Their word carries much more weight than a bunch of keyboard warriors who probably don't have an athletic bone in their body.

Hey I pitched in a state championship game damn it.....

/me goes back to his chocolate chip muffin and slouched posture.....

 

[542365]

The players voted Donaldson player of the year. Their word carries much more weight than a bunch of keyboard warriors who probably don't have an athletic bone in their body.

Says the guy with over 2000 posts on a message board.... Something about a pot...or a kettle...

EDIT: For the record, played hockey and baseball through college and made Babe Ruth World Series.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Says the guy with over 2000 posts on a message board.... Something about a pot...or a kettle...

EDIT: For the record, played hockey and baseball through college and made Babe Ruth World Series.

Didn't you know? If you have an opinion that differs from a majority of the players (not all) then you never played and you're a keyboard warrior.

 

[Big Poppa Puck]

Yea I never got "the players thought this and they know better than you."

Players are playing the games. They're not really watching other teams and players. And it's not inconceivable a fan knows be then them. How many GMs ever played? And they know a lot more than players.

I'd take the opinion or like Brian Kenney or even Keith Law, who gives off dickish "I'm know more than you vibe", over some meathead player like say Brian McCann.

Same thing goes for analysts on TV they're almost always former players but most of us would be a much better analyst than like Harold Reynolds or Joe Morgan. And that could be true whether you only played through little league, high school, college, pro or never picked up a baseball.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Yea I never got "the players thought this and they know better than you."

Players are playing the games. They're not really watching other teams and players. And it's not inconceivable a fan knows be then them. How many GMs ever played? And they know a lot more than players.

I'd take the opinion or like Brian Kenney or even Keith Law, who gives off dickish "I'm know more than you vibe", over some meathead player like say Brian McCann.

Same thing goes for analysts on TV they're almost always former players but most of us would be a much better analyst than like Harold Reynolds or Joe Morgan. And that could be true whether you only played through little league, high school, college, pro or never picked up a baseball.

To add, just because the players voted Donaldson doesn't mean they didn't agonize over it. Or its also quite possible they were more inclined to vote Donaldson given Trout won last year(and is a lot younger). A lot of factors in play.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

People here sure seem to be agonizing about the decision to choose Donaldson over Trout for MVP.

THey were separated by a whopping .5 WAR folks - pretty negligible. Time to let it go.