Nikita Zadorov: The Almost Dynasty and The Future Travesty Part 1; The Squabble

[Kcoyote3]

The Sabres were criticized all season long for tanking and not making an effort to improve. Now that they're making moves to improve, they're once again being criticized. Got it.

In my original post I said I was actually a fan of the tanking and the building. Like a really big fan. I would go to your site and look over your "Assets" thread and imagine building a team out of it.

I realize you're speaking to the population for criticizing you, but I was not one of them.

 

[gallagt01]

In my original post I said I was actually a fan of the tanking and the building. Like a really big fan. I would go to your site and look over your "Assets" thread and imagine building a team out of it.

I realize you're speaking to the population for criticizing you, but I was not one of them.

The theory of building a team out of assets hoarded through a scorched-Earth rebuild is flawed, I think. Buffalo added proven young talent without giving up a single primary piece to do it (Myers' loss is offset by Bogosian/Zadorov is debateable...I considered him a secondary asset).

They added two very good, proven talents without moving Eichel, Reinhart, Risto or Girgensons. That's huge.

 

[Kcoyote3]

I never said don't trade the assets. I said don't trade the defense. When Myers had even a serviceable team in front of him with Winnipeg he went off at the end of last year. That's a big red flag for what was given up for Myers.

Now Bogosian may end up being great for Buffalo, I just like Myers a hell of a lot more.

I think they rushed into these three deals this year to try and put something on the ice. And the parts they traded were not good parts to trade.

There once was a time a certain Toronto team traded a first rounder for a solid back-up goaltender too.

His name was Vesa Toskala, and the pick San Jose acquired was traded up and turned into Logan Couture.

Anyways, all the deals just are from the wrong end. Trade all of your offensive prospects, but keep Myers and Zadorov, and this doom and gloom thread isn't made.



Also I'm happy the 31st Jeremy Roy ended up with the Sharks, but that could have been Buffalo's pick as well.

 

[Diatomic]

They gave up alot of pieces and prospects to speed up their rebuild by 2-3 years. Maybe the fans and management became impatient.

 

[Kcoyote3]

They gave up alot of pieces and prospects to speed up their rebuild by 2-3 years. Maybe the fans and management became impatient.

It didn't speed it up. It slowed it down.

 

[Thorton02]

I never said don't trade the assets. I said don't trade the defense. When Myers had even a serviceable team in front of him with Winnipeg he went off at the end of last year. That's a big red flag for what was given up for Myers.

Now Bogosian may end up being great for Buffalo, I just like Myers a hell of a lot more.

I think they rushed into these three deals this year to try and put something on the ice. And the parts they traded were not good parts to trade.

There once was a time a certain Toronto team traded a first rounder for a solid back-up goaltender too.

His name was Vesa Toskala, and the pick San Jose acquired was traded up and turned into Logan Couture.

Anyways, all the deals just are from the wrong end. Trade all of your offensive prospects, but keep Myers and Zadorov, and this doom and gloom thread isn't made.



Also I'm happy the 31st Jeremy Roy ended up with the Sharks, but that could have been Buffalo's pick as well.

Myers was traded because of how he played behind the serviceable team Buffalo put in front of him. You made decent points OP, but Sabres fans saw enough of Myers to be comfortable with the trade.

 

[gallagt01]

It didn't speed it up. It slowed it down.

What? How?

 

[Rebels57]

What? How?

Probably because their Defense is worse off after the trades and Defense is what drives success in todays NHL.

 

[oXo Cube]

Take it from an Oiler fan that simply waiting for everything to fall into place isn't always the best approach...

That doesn't mean that the moves Murray made are good or bad of course. We all have our opinions on them but even if you aren't a fan I think it's only fair to give them a chance to work out before we declare that they didn't.

 

[PucksInDeep]

I think some of the moves Buffalo has done are a bit riskier than I would like. But, there is something to be said for taking that risk and being willing to give up prospects to get the players you want.

Myers looks like he might have a resurgence in Winnipeg, but would that have happened in Buffalo? Every season since his Calder year has been a disappointment from what I remember.

From my own perspective, the Caps for years had a lot of top-level talent and good prospects, but were always missing a couple pieces here and there that prevented them from going deep in the playoffs. Up until last season our depth on defense has been atrocious for all of Ovechkin's career. When McPhee was the GM, he was very careful about not giving up prospects - but this meant he never made the moves that could've pushed the Caps over the top.

Buffalo right now is stacked down the middle with Eichel/O'Reilly/Girgensons/Reinhart, and I really think Ristolainen is going to be a fantastic #1 defenseman. Lehner is still unproven, but he's very young and has already had some success in the NHL, and certainly has more upside than Lack/Talbot/etc. Buffalo still has a season or two where they won't be a contender and where they probably won't make the playoffs, and they should be able to pick up some more great prospects in the draft. They should be fine.

 

[Thorton02]

Take it from an Oiler fan that simply waiting for everything to fall into place isn't always the best approach...

That doesn't mean that the moves Murray made are good or bad of course. We all have our opinions on them but even if you aren't a fan I think it's only fair to give them a chance to work out before we declare that they didn't.

Sigh, unfortunately that line of thinking doesn't work in the summer.

 

[Kcoyote3]

What? How?

If Buffalo was looking to be a playoff team, then sure it sped it up.

If Buffalo was looking to build a dynasty, it slowed it down. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Buffalo had the pieces already in place on defense to accelerate their growth up front. They no longer have that. They could get it back through FA or by waiting to draft, but it isn't there right now. Now the team will be somewhat more stagnant.

I'm not looking to rip on anyone here. I'm just calling it like I see it.

 

[Moskau]

Buffalo should have waited until Joel Armia and Mikhail Grigorenko continued to destroy what little value they had.

Buffalo has traded two valuable assets in all of this.

Zadorov and Myers. But Bogosian is just as good as Myers and for Buffalo was actually better overall. Hell, Myers was actually a statistical downgrade for Winnipeg as well. But Buffalo needed Bogosian's skill set more and Winnipeg needed Myers'.

So overall Buffalo traded away one truly valuable asset in Zadorov and acquired two players who are still only 24 or younger.

Buffalo still has the 2nd deepest prospect pool in the entire league behind Winnipeg.

 

[ModernUser]

I don't even know where to begin. I stopped reading when you said an 18 year old Eichel should be the #1 center to start next year.

Yea I read something about "keys to the kingdom" and then I was like that's enough internet this morning

 

[MikeModano9]

As an Oiler fan I'm going to tell you RNH will be playing 1st line minutes against top competition like he always does. He's a beast defensivley and should be even better this year. Just how I think ROR should be doing in Buffalo. Eichel isn't getting screwed here, he's getting a chance to adapt and succeed. What a weird thread.

 

[Moskau]

If Buffalo was looking to be a playoff team, then sure it sped it up.

If Buffalo was looking to build a dynasty, it slowed it down. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Buffalo had the pieces already in place on defense to accelerate their growth up front. They no longer have that. They could get it back through FA or by waiting to draft, but it isn't there right now. Now the team will be somewhat more stagnant.

I'm not looking to rip on anyone here. I'm just calling it like I see it.

Trading away one defensemen who has been nothing but a headache for the organization slows down building a dynasty? Jesus Christ where do people come up with this ****?

Buffalo has Ristolainen, Bogosian, Pysysk and McCabe right now which is far better than what Chicago had when Chicago first started taking steps to becoming great. Chicago pulled Duncan Keith out of their ass and that's not something you can ever plan for. Buffalo is going to have to "build a dynasty" without planning on drafting the best defensemen in the league in the late 2nd round. And trading away one defensemen in Zadorov does nothing to change that.

 

[gallagt01]

If Buffalo was looking to be a playoff team, then sure it sped it up.

If Buffalo was looking to build a dynasty, it slowed it down. That's the point I'm trying to make here. Buffalo had the pieces already in place on defense to accelerate their growth up front. They no longer have that. They could get it back through FA or by waiting to draft, but it isn't there right now. Now the team will be somewhat more stagnant.

I'm not looking to rip on anyone here. I'm just calling it like I see it.

So trading Zadorov, who is still a question mark, derailed Buffalo's rebuild and sabotaged the team's ability to be a dynasty long-term.

Got it.

This thread also operates under the assumption that Murray is done building and that he's content with Gorges as the team's top LD long-term. It's just silly.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Buffalo should have waited until Joel Armia and Mikhail Grigorenko continued to destroy what little value they had.

Buffalo has traded two valuable assets in all of this.

Zadorov and Myers. But Bogosian is just as good as Myers and for Buffalo was actually better overall. Hell, Myers was actually a statistical downgrade for Winnipeg as well. But Buffalo needed Bogosian's skill set more and Winnipeg needed Myers'.

So overall Buffalo traded away one truly valuable asset in Zadorov and acquired two players who are still only 24 or younger.

Buffalo still has the 2nd deepest prospect pool in the entire league behind Winnipeg.

I have NO problem trading Armia or Lemieux. Use all your prospects. But to say because Myers has had three years of mediocre point totals does not make him a worse player than Bogosian. He's had the worst team in the NHL to play for the past three years. As a number one defenseman without an actual NHL goaltender for the most part. Of course he's going to be terrible on the score sheet, Buffalo's leading scorers the past three years have put up 46, 41 and 44 points. But why do you think he went to Winnipeg and suddenly put up more points in 24 games (15) than he did with the Sabres in 47 games (13)? The team is going to miss his presence, and him having a one-two punch with Ristolainen on the second pairing would have been magical for the team in the future.

That's all I'm saying. You acquired two great young players. But they aren't elite talents nor are they at the needed position. You had Eichel/Girgensons/Reinhart, why would you add ROR unless you plan on making them expendable. Acquiring good but not elite wingers does not build a team. Look at JVR for Toronto.

 

[Ainec]

They target the right players but in the ROR trade they could have made a deal without including the 31st imo. Call Col's bluff.

No defending Lehner trade

 

[jetsfan91]

I have zero problems with what Buffalo is doing. They've been a bad team for a lot of years. They had a nice prospect pool. They decided who they wanted to keep, and who they could trade for ESTABLISHED NHL'ers. Give your young players pieces to play with and that's just going to speed up their progress. There's less pressure on a guy like Eichel now that they have ROR and Kane in their line up.

 

[MilanKraft*]

The players they think are good are not really that good...

ennis, kane, bogosian, etc..

 

[pigpen65]

Murray walked into a situation unlike any other in the league. Aside from Miller, the vets had already been cleared out. The "rebuild" was already done. All he had to do was coast through the season for Eichel or McDavid and wait it out. Basically it was served up on a plate for him. He inherited all of his assets, he didn't have to work for them. That led to him overspending on every single trade. It's easier to spend money you haven't worked for. Ask any trust fund kid. The funny thing is that Sabres fans that are so quick to applaud him as a GM still haven't seen him GM. Anybody can spend a bunch of money you give them. Give me a hundred dollars, I'll be back in 20 minutes with some cool stuff. Tell me to be back in 20 minutes with 100 dollars worth of cool stuff without giving me the 100 dollars first, well, that's a whole different ball game. Spending isn't what makes a GM. Spending is the easy part. Acquiring is the hard part.

 

[Kcoyote3]

The players they think are good are not really that good...

ennis, kane, bogosian, etc..

Bogosian and Kane especially. I have no problem with how Ennis is represented. I do have a problem with somehow Bogosian being a superior defenseman than Myers.

 

[Moskau]

I have NO problem trading Armia or Lemieux. Use all your prospects. But to say because Myers has had three years of mediocre point totals does not make him a worse player than Bogosian. He's had the worse team in the NHL to play for the past three years. As a number one defenseman without an actual NHL goaltender for the most part. Of course he's going to be terrible on the score sheet, Buffalo's leading scorers the past three years have put up 46, 41 and 44 points. But why do you think he went to Winnipeg and suddenly put up more points in 24 games (15) than he did with the Sabres in 47 games (13)? The team is going to miss his presence, and him having a one-two punch with Ristolainen on the second pairing would have been magical for the team in the future.

That's all I'm saying. You acquired two great young players. But they aren't elite talents nor are they at the needed position. You had Eichel/Girgensons/Reinhart, why would you add ROR unless you plan on making them expendable. Acquiring good but not elite wingers does not build a team. Look at JVR for Toronto.

That's great but I watched Bopgosian on Buffalo and I watched Tyler Myers on Buffalo and Bogosian was the better defensemen for Buffalo. Which is exactly what I said in my post that you somehow struggled to read.

And any Buffalo poster worth their **** have all agreed that Bogosian was simply equal to or better than Myers on Buffalo last season. The same way that you can look at stats and see that Bogosian and Myers had nearly the same effect on Winnipeg as well. Bogosian actually has the slightly better numbers there too.

So really all it comes down to is Zadorov. Buffalo traded Zadorov, two prospects with declining value in Armia and Grigorenko, one prospect who had no interest in Buffalo in Lemieux, one prospect who regressed last season and is redundant in Buffalo's system in Compher and some picks for Evander Kane and Ryan O'Reilly. Myers and Bogosian are a textbook wash.

 

[jetsfan91]

That's great but I watched Bopgosian on Buffalo and I watched Tyler Myers on Buffalo and Bogosian was the better defensemen for Buffalo. Which is exactly what I said in my post that you somehow struggled to read.

And any Buffalo poster worth their **** have all agreed that Bogosian was simply equal to or better than Myers on Buffalo last season. The same way that you can look at stats and see that Bogosian and Myers had nearly the same effect on Winnipeg as well. Bogosian actually has the slightly better numbers there too.

So really all it comes down to is Zadorov. Buffalo traded Zadorov, two prospects with declining value in Armia and Grigorenko, one prospect who had no interest in Buffalo in Lemieux, one prospect who regressed last season and is redundant in Buffalo's system in Compher and some picks for Evander Kane and Ryan O'Reilly. Myers and Bogosian are a textbook wash.

Bogo and Myers isn't a wash lol! not even close..