Nikita Zadorov Discussion Part II

[member 116861]

Best prospect pool the teams ever had by a wide margin... Guess that's nothing though

:kermitthefrogemoji

They should have had more and better prospects though. #AssetManagement

 

[Avs44]

Best prospect pool the teams ever had by a wide margin... Guess that's nothing though

:kermitthefrogemoji

It doesn't mean much when you got that improved prospect pool by missing the playoffs for three consecutive years, and traded away a really high end young player, no...any half competent GM should be able to nail high draft picks and get a good futures return on a good player. If that's the bar for praise now then I think we've been inundated with incompetence for too long. Certainly Sakic has done a decent job with the high picks he's had (so far), but I don't think that earns him a bunch of praise, or the benefit of the doubt. Not when everything else is so wrong.

 

[McMetal]

It doesn't mean much when you got that improved prospect pool by missing the playoffs for three consecutive years, and traded away a really high end young player, no...any half competent GM should be able to nail high draft picks and get a good futures return on a good player. If that's the bar for praise now then I think we've been inundated with incompetence for too long. Certainly Sakic has done a decent job with the high picks he's had (so far), but I don't think that earns him a bunch of praise, or the benefit of the doubt. Not when everything else is so wrong.

He didn't just nail high draft picks. We now have Mironov, Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov, and Henry out of the 3rd round and beyond, who we all have some hope for. I'm not even counting second rounders for that list, because top 40 picks should be consistently hit, too.

I know, I know, they haven't proven anything yet, but that's something you can say about literally any pool of prospects around the league. That's why they're prospects. The point is, they look like good picks now; some still do 2+ years after their draft. If Sakic is fired tomorrow, a large part of the success a new GM might have is going to be thanks to what he did with organically grown depth.

The whole point of this is that people blindly brush aside any attempts to point out that anything remotely positive is happening. Your post kind of is the template for what we're talking about.

 

[AllAboutAvs]

He didn't just nail high draft picks. We now have Mironov, Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov, and Henry out of the 3rd round and beyond, who we all have some hope for. I'm not even counting second rounders for that list, because top 40 picks should be consistently hit, too.

I know, I know, they haven't proven anything yet, but that's something you can say about literally any pool of prospects around the league. That's why they're prospects. The point is, they look like good picks now; some still do 2+ years after their draft. If Sakic is fired tomorrow, a large part of the success a new GM might have is going to be thanks to what he did with organically grown depth.

The whole point of this is that people blindly brush aside any attempts to point out that anything remotely positive is happening. Your post kind of is the template for what we're talking about.

Yep exactly my point. A new GM would have come in and do everything that Sakic has done lately and he would have been praised as the GM that is turning the franchise around but for Sakic it's "he is just doing what any good GM should be doing". Well good GMs make mistake too. Take the Duchene situation for example. Even if Sakic gets everything he wants in that deal I am convinced that most people would concentrate on the fact that he had taken too long to do the deal instead of the return.

Was Sakic bad? Of course he was. Even somebody (not myself) wants to blame Roy for all the mistakes that were done before, he was still the GM and should have not approved some of these changes and direction. But since he has been alone more good things has happened than bad. Bednar is still a huge question mark though that will be answered quickly into the season. Even if that was a mistake, keeping him for now will only help getting that high pick so many people here wants to get. Anyway IMO Sakic is learning and coming around nicely. For that he is getting my benefit of the doubt. For that people can call me an apologist if they want.

I think we have derailed this thread enough and maybe these last few posts should be transferred to the Sakic thread so they are not lost in the shuffle and to clean up this thread.

 

[henchman21]

He didn't just nail high draft picks. We now have Mironov, Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov, and Henry out of the 3rd round and beyond, who we all have some hope for. I'm not even counting second rounders for that list, because top 40 picks should be consistently hit, too.

I know, I know, they haven't proven anything yet, but that's something you can say about literally any pool of prospects around the league. That's why they're prospects. The point is, they look like good picks now; some still do 2+ years after their draft. If Sakic is fired tomorrow, a large part of the success a new GM might have is going to be thanks to what he did with organically grown depth.

The whole point of this is that people blindly brush aside any attempts to point out that anything remotely positive is happening. Your post kind of is the template for what we're talking about.

I think it is a bit early to call those picks successes. They should establish themselves in the NHL first IMO.

Sakic has made a lot of bad decisions, and most of them relate to the big club. Where most of his direct responsibility lies. The last GM who let a big name player sit on the block this long was Gillis. The Lou situation was a fiasco, and rightfully, it was a joke around the league. We are at a solid 20 months of the Duchene drama...

There has been good, but I don't think there is a way the NHL team is better at any position than when Sakic arrived. The AHL team isn't any better. We have a few more promising prospects, but that is about it.

 

[Postanin CB Ting]

Back to Zads.. over/under 28 points next year?

 

[henchman21]

Under... I'd be thrilled with 20 with 3 or 4 being goals.

 

[Postanin CB Ting]

I'd agree with that if he ended up beside Barrie playing more defensive. I'm hoping by Christmas he's beside EJ and able to play a more two - way game. Maybe some 2nd PP mins I could see 30+ 8 goals

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

He didn't just nail high draft picks. We now have Mironov, Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov, and Henry out of the 3rd round and beyond, who we all have some hope for. I'm not even counting second rounders for that list, because top 40 picks should be consistently hit, too.

I know, I know, they haven't proven anything yet, but that's something you can say about literally any pool of prospects around the league. That's why they're prospects. The point is, they look like good picks now; some still do 2+ years after their draft. If Sakic is fired tomorrow, a large part of the success a new GM might have is going to be thanks to what he did with organically grown depth.

The whole point of this is that people blindly brush aside any attempts to point out that anything remotely positive is happening. Your post kind of is the template for what we're talking about.

So when it comes to guys like Colborne, that's Roy's fault. But you want to give Sakic credit for drafting these mid round picks? That's all scouting, not Sakic.

Bringing common sense and logic to the conversation is not blindly brushing aside something. Maybe you Sakic defenders should find bigger things to point to than these things that can be easily countered. Oh wait, you can't. Because Sakic sucks at his job and all you defenders have are these small little details that should just naturally happen anyways. Seriously, by giving him credit for the prospect pool you are basically saying, "good job sucking ass the past 3 years".

Just some friendly advice (I did this during the season) maybe you should just take a break from the board if you don't like negativity. We just had a historically bad year. **** ain't going to be positive around here for awhile. Especially when the great Joe Sakic is still in charge. People want hope. Its hard to have hope when you have no faith in your GM.

Yep exactly my point. A new GM would have come in and do everything that Sakic has done lately and he would have been praised as the GM that is turning the franchise around but for Sakic it's "he is just doing what any good GM should be doing". Well good GMs make mistake too. Take the Duchene situation for example. Even if Sakic gets everything he wants in that deal I am convinced that most people would concentrate on the fact that he had taken too long to do the deal instead of the return.

Was Sakic bad? Of course he was. Even somebody (not myself) wants to blame Roy for all the mistakes that were done before, he was still the GM and should have not approved some of these changes and direction. But since he has been alone more good things has happened than bad. Bednar is still a huge question mark though that will be answered quickly into the season. Even if that was a mistake, keeping him for now will only help getting that high pick so many people here wants to get. Anyway IMO Sakic is learning and coming around nicely. For that he is getting my benefit of the doubt. For that people can call me an apologist if they want.

I think we have derailed this thread enough and maybe these last few posts should be transferred to the Sakic thread so they are not lost in the shuffle and to clean up this thread.

Oh please, a new GM would be doing a hell of a lot more than Sakic has.

And what exactly has he learned other than old and slow doesnt make a good hockey player?

The simply fact that after half a decade you guys are hanging your hat on "he is learning" is quite telling. If this guy wasn't so terrible at his job you Sakic defenders would shave a lot more to point to to have just "he is learning". But hey, at this pace we might make the playoffs 15 years from now.

 

[Avs44]

He didn't just nail high draft picks. We now have Mironov, Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov, and Henry out of the 3rd round and beyond, who we all have some hope for. I'm not even counting second rounders for that list, because top 40 picks should be consistently hit, too.

I know, I know, they haven't proven anything yet, but that's something you can say about literally any pool of prospects around the league. That's why they're prospects. The point is, they look like good picks now; some still do 2+ years after their draft. If Sakic is fired tomorrow, a large part of the success a new GM might have is going to be thanks to what he did with organically grown depth.

The whole point of this is that people blindly brush aside any attempts to point out that anything remotely positive is happening. Your post kind of is the template for what we're talking about.

I know you mentioned they are unproven, but listing guys like that and slapping them in the "positives" category is kind of what I'm talking about when I say the bar of success has been put so low for some of you. If 4-5 of those guys become quality and key NHLers then that would be brilliant by Sakic, but if realistically only 2-3 of them turn into consistent NHLers than that's nothing too special either. In other words, we have no idea how that's going to look, and certainly shouldn't be anointing that as a success right now...which is precisely what some folks are doing. It is something to look forward to for us as fans, but it's not a feather in Sakic's cap right now.


The bottom line, like henchy said, is that since Sakic has arrived the NHL team is actually worse, the bright outlook of the team that he took over when he arrived has stagnated and died, several of the young stars from that promising team will likely be gone, we are looking forward to rebuild 2.0 since rebuild 1.0 busted under Sakic's watch, our coaching is arguably worse or on par with the moron coach running the team just before Sakic took over...I mean, this past season, after 4 years in charge, Sakic just took the team back to 2012/13 bottom of the basement levels (and worse). We've literally gone full circle. So after years of wasting several players' careers, our time as fans, the efforts of rebuild 1.0, no...I'm not going to slap Sakic on the back for creating a better prospect pool out of all that misery. He has to turn those prospects into a quality and promising NHL team at this point in time (or have many of those prospects became the foundation of the next GMs team), considering the hell that's been the last bit of his tenure, to warrant any redemption.



And back to Zads...~20 points would be good for me. I'd rather see him solidify his defensive game. If he's being pushed to the first pairing with big minutes I don't think he'll even have time to focus on much more.

 

[Balthazar]

If only one of Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov or Henry becomes a NHL regular one day I'll be impressed. People always disregard history when looking at prospects.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

If only one of Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov or Henry becomes a NHL regular one day I'll be impressed. People always disregard history when looking at prospects.

There's times to be optimistic and times to be realistic. I'd be ecstatic if the Avs developed more than one of them into NHL regulars, let alone one of them. Even one would be a huge improvement.

I know they're all potential-laden individuals, but we were penciling Gaunce into the 2nd pairing regularly once upon a time and he was drafted higher than them all and has been through numerous organizations now.

 

[tigervixxxen]

If only one of Beaudin, Nantel, Martin, Boikov, Lindholm, Shvyrov or Henry becomes a NHL regular one day I'll be impressed. People always disregard history when looking at prospects.

Or the development system

 

[UncleRisto]

Or the development system

Do you ever get tired of pointing that out?

 

[Foppberg]

Do you ever get tired of pointing that out?

If TV had a Tinder account her bio would be 'Looking for a man who enjoys the development of prospects'

 

[tigervixxxen]

Do you ever get tired of pointing that out?

I do and I'll stop once it sinks in

 

[UncleRisto]

I do and I'll stop once it sinks in

So what do you expect to change?

 

[henchman21]

Completely a chicken/egg situation... hard to tell exactly what the real issue is, but I still have reasons to think they have issues identifying translatable talent. We all know I loved this draft year, but there are still picks Kvaca, Anderson, Werner, Barron, etc that are questionable.

 

[Bubba Thudd]

So what do you expect to change?

You can't possibly think the development team is as good as they can be?

 

[McMetal]

I know you mentioned they are unproven, but listing guys like that and slapping them in the "positives" category is kind of what I'm talking about when I say the bar of success has been put so low for some of you. If 4-5 of those guys become quality and key NHLers then that would be brilliant by Sakic, but if realistically only 2-3 of them turn into consistent NHLers than that's nothing too special either. In other words, we have no idea how that's going to look, and certainly shouldn't be anointing that as a success right now...which is precisely what some folks are doing. It is something to look forward to for us as fans, but it's not a feather in Sakic's cap right now.

That argument would hold more water if you couldn't say it about literally any prospect pool in the league, even the ones we all envy. Drafting is part of Sakic's job whether you like to admit it or not.

But if you want to go ahead and say that we don't know what will happen to those guys, therefore it means nothing, it stands to reason that what's really needed is some more time to see how the drafting actually plays out before we judge how Sakic has done as a GM.

Has he made mistakes? Good God yes. But part of the problem here is that when he was building his team's depth, he had to do it entirely out of free agency, because he came in with no homegrown depth whatsoever. Free Agency is notoriously filled with old, slow, journeyman players in a lot of cases. Could he have done better? Probably, but the point is that he had NO OTHER METHOD TO FILL A TEAM because the drafting had been so bad. Now that we have some more U23 options, it stands to reason that maybe, just maybe, things will get better and this is a one-off year.

 

[UncleRisto]

You can't possibly think the development team is as good as they can be?

I'm sorry, is someone here responsible for filling those positions? I mean, we have dozens of trade rumor and prospect threads each season. Is every single one from here on out going to boil down to "but with this team's coaching", "with this team's development", "with this team's drafting", "with this team's scouting", "with Sakic as GM". What if the next management doesn't win? Will you people finally snap and switch teams or something?

 

[LieutenantDangle]

That argument would hold more water if you couldn't say it about literally any prospect pool in the league, even the ones we all envy. Drafting is part of Sakic's job whether you like to admit it or not.

But if you want to go ahead and say that we don't know what will happen to those guys, therefore it means nothing, it stands to reason that what's really needed is some more time to see how the drafting actually plays out before we judge how Sakic has done as a GM.

Has he made mistakes? Good God yes. But part of the problem here is that when he was building his team's depth, he had to do it entirely out of free agency, because he came in with no homegrown depth whatsoever. Free Agency is notoriously filled with old, slow, journeyman players in a lot of cases. Could he have done better? Probably, but the point is that he had NO OTHER METHOD TO FILL A TEAM because the drafting had been so bad. Now that we have some more U23 options, it stands to reason that maybe, just maybe, things will get better and this is a one-off year.

a very good point. Knowing this though, Sakic absolutely NEEDED to handle the good young talent on the roster better. Losing Stastny for nothing, and the O'Reilly saga that dragged out for several years were both huge unrecoverable errors that pretty much did the team in. IF Sakic had managed to keep a competitive roster, WHILE still restocking the pipeline of prospects the team would be in a much better position right now, and we'd be a lot less doom and gloom. But at this point, whats done is done, and we have to live with reality. Constantly lambasting Sakic from half the Avs board is the main reason people are 'Sakic apologists' as some here call us. We aren't defending Sakic, were just tired of the whining, and the failure to see that at this point, Sakic is laying in the bed he made, not digging a deeper grave

 

[Tommy Shelby]

Yeah, sure, the prospect pool looks better than it did (nowhere but up to go when you have guys like Mitchell Heard, Joey Hishon and Mark Olver in your "top" prospects)

But the sad reality is that our prospect pool is still worse than virtually every other team with similar points totals over the past 5 years. That's because those teams traded assets for picks and prospects, and signed players who could then be used as trade bait rather than riding out their NHL career in our lineup.

 

[tigervixxxen]

You have guys who had talent at one time too like Elliott. It's all part of the haha and we thought those guys were good prospects. Well maybe it wasn't the talent level, maybe it's what happened to them after. It's certainly some of both, bad picks and bad development. But until development is a widely accepted major aspect of the equation then it's going to keep getting brought up.

 

[The Kingslayer]

This boy still hasn't officially signed yet?