Nikita Kucherov is the clear favorite for the Art Ross Trophy

[Beyonder91]

Let's do a simple and straightforward comparison between the two: how about we identify whose totals have been propped up the most by more easily attainable points, and who has consistently delivered crucial points that actually secured victories in closely contested games, where the outcome remained uncertain, embodying the very essence of an MVP.


MacKinnon - cheap easy points or meaningless points; 9
November 15 - assist late in third while up 7 to 2
November 22 - EN assist while up by 2
November 27 - EN assist while up by 2
December 17 - EN goal while up by 3
December 21 - EN goal
January 20 - EN goal while up by 2
February 13 - EN assist
February 20 - EN assist
March 30 - EN goal while up by 2

As for Mac's important late game winning or tying point total... It was FourTEEN with 9 game winners;
November 9 - Assisted on late game tying goal
November 30 - Scored game trying goal late in third
December 11 - Scored game winning goal late in third
December 21 - Assisted on late game winning goal
January 2 - Assisted on late game tying goal, then in OT...
January 2 - Scored the OT winner
January 4 - Scored the OT winner
January 13 - Scored game winning goal late in third completing the 0-3 comeback
February 18 - Assisted on late game winning goal
March 8 - Assisted on OT winner
March 13 - Assisted on OT winner
March 16 - Assisted on OT winner
March 24 - Scored game trying goal late in third, then in OT...
March 24 - Assisted on OT winner completing the 0-4 comeback


meanwhile...
Kucherov - cheap easy points or meaningless points; 16
October 10 - EN goal 2 seconds left
November 24 - assist late in the third while up 7 to 2
Dec 28 - EN assist with 7 seconds left while up by 2
January 23 - EN goal with 11 seconds left while up by 2
January 27 - EN assist
February 10 - EN assist
February 24 - EN assist
February 25 - EN goal while up by 2
February 27 - assist late in third while down 1 to 9
March 14 - EN goal while up by 2
March 16 - EN goal
March 27 - EN goal
March 29 - EN goal
March 30 - EN assist while up by 2
April 4 - EN assist while up by 2
April 9 - EN assist while up by 2

And here's the exhaustive list of Kucherov's important late game winning or tying points; FOUR. With points in just 2 game winners;
November 20 - Assisted on late game tying goal
December 9 - Assisted on OT winner
January 11 - Scored the OT winner
March 23 - Assisted on late game tying goal


While Mac's been piling up the game winners the last couple of months, Kuch has been piling up the empty netters. #86 anit touching the Hart.

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on this site and that is saying something.

Yes, a player who has literally been a part of HALF of his teams goals this year hasn't "consistently delivered crucial points" for his team. Okay bud!

 

[gritdash60]

1. He'd have to push for closer to 75+ goals

He might displace McDavid at #3 as a finalist though

Dude, i dont think you give the respect for a (possible) 70goal season that it deserves. Yes if the voting was about who is the best player in the world, my vote would likely go to Kucherov. Hart trophy? very easy Matthews for me, there is 8 players in the history of the game that have scored 70, and none of those faced this kind of opposition.

Selänne said it in a podcast that "the defenders were so slow that they should have skate forwards because they couldnt skate backwards, and the ones who did were too slow". Thats how people scored 70+ back in the day, today? There isnt a single one defender in any team that isnt a great hockey player. Scoring 70+ in 23-24 is just insane to me, i would say some stuff but i dont want haters piling on me.

 

[Firsov99]

Whelp, then Kucherov got this unless MacK pulls off an 8pts Eberle performance.

You know, it’s not impossible considering how this season has been going. Let’s say Kuch adds a couple of points in two games, and MacK has a stellar 6 point game to finish the season. Not unrealistic at all.

 

[ricky0034]

Dude, i dont think you give the respect for a (possible) 70goal season that it deserves. Yes if the voting was about who is the best player in the world, my vote would likely go to Kucherov. Hart trophy? very easy Matthews for me, there is 8 players in the history of the game that have scored 70, and none of those faced this kind of opposition.

Selänne said it in a podcast that "the defenders were so slow that they should have skate forwards because they couldnt skate backwards, and the ones who did were too slow". Thats how people scored 70+ back in the day, today? There isnt a single one defender in any team that isnt a great hockey player. Scoring 70+ in 23-24 is just insane to me, i would say some stuff but i dont want haters piling on me.

and only 3 that have had 100 assists

 

[WarriorofTime]

If WPG wins their next game or loses in overtime, that locks Colorado for third in central. They can still have movement on where they fall with pacific teams for a potential WCF if they get passed WPG and DAL.

Would they consider resting MacKinnon last game?

 

[Beukeboom]

Dude, i dont think you give the respect for a (possible) 70goal season that it deserves. Yes if the voting was about who is the best player in the world, my vote would likely go to Kucherov. Hart trophy? very easy Matthews for me, there is 8 players in the history of the game that have scored 70, and none of those faced this kind of opposition.

Selänne said it in a podcast that "the defenders were so slow that they should have skate forwards because they couldnt skate backwards, and the ones who did were too slow". Thats how people scored 70+ back in the day, today? There isnt a single one defender in any team that isnt a great hockey player. Scoring 70+ in 23-24 is just insane to me, i would say some stuff but i dont want haters piling on me.

That's pretty flawed, because Zack Hyman and Sam Reinhart are on their way to 55 (or more) goals seasons. Matthews has 14 goals more than Zack Hyman. I'm not saying 70 isn't amazing, but it's pretty much what it was any other season with similar scoring levels (or other similar factors affecting top end scoring)?

 

[gritdash60]

That's pretty flawed, because Zack Hyman and Sam Reinhart are on their way to 55 (or more) goals seasons. Matthews has 14 goals more than Zack Hyman. I'm not saying 70 isn't amazing, but it's pretty much what it was any other season with similar scoring levels (or other similar factors affecting top end scoring)?

What does Reinhart or Hyman scoring goals have to do with Matthews? They score goals because they have good centers, Matthews scoring 70 has nothing to do with Panthers or Oilers.

 

[bobholly39]

McDavid is back tonight vs the Sharks.

Does anyone think he has a 7 or 8 point game in him tonight, and isn't completely out of the race just yet? With the insane season we've had so far, and McDavid's own track record, I won't completely dimiss this out of hand until tonight's game is over....would be fun to see, that's for sure

 

[Beukeboom]

What does Reinhart or Hyman scoring goals have to do with Matthews? They score goals because they have good centers, Matthews scoring 70 has nothing to do with Panthers or Oilers.

You said defensemen were crappy back in the day so 70 goals wasn't as impressive then. I'm saying that if a Zack Hyman calibre player can score 55 (or more) it seems pretty comparable to how things have always been. It would be very different if the second best scorer had 45 goals.

When Gretzky scored 87 goals in only 74 games (his most impressive season imo), the second best scorer had 56, in other words Zack Hymanesque. Hence this season is very comparable to any in the past, and thusly Matthews 70 goals campaign is not more impressive than any other 70 goal campaign.

 

[TheTotalPackage]

McDavid is back tonight vs the Sharks.

Does anyone think he has a 7 or 8 point game in him tonight, and isn't completely out of the race just yet? With the insane season we've had so far, and McDavid's own track record, I won't completely dimiss this out of hand until tonight's game is over....would be fun to see, that's for sure

I think it's all about 100 assists at this point. The Art Ross is out of reach. He gets one more assist, etching his name in history, and then takes it easy until the playoffs.

 

[Video Nasty]

Still a decent chance Kucherov hits 100 assists first, by virtue of his game starting earlier today.

Either way, I hope McDavid reaches the mark tonight. While I don’t think this is necessarily his one and only chance at 100 assists in a season, nothing is guaranteed and I’d rather not look at his career stats for years to come with the obvious reminder how agonizingly close he came.

 

[ViD]

Seriously, anyone who thinks the Art Ross winner will not also get the Hart trophy is delusional.

There’s zero argument to give one trophy to player A and the other to player B. This year the winner takes it all

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Seriously, anyone who thinks the Art Ross winner will not also get the Hart trophy is delusional.

There’s zero argument to give one trophy to player A and the other to player B. This year the winner takes it all

I mean the voting should already be set in stone for MVP at least , points in the last 2 games shouldnt skew them , I think Kuch is the MVP and 2 games won't change that , all 3 of their teams are clinched... Not that I think Kuch will win it but realistically what can happen to change a voters mind in the last two games?

 

[Despote]

You said defensemen were crappy back in the day so 70 goals wasn't as impressive then. I'm saying that if a Zack Hyman calibre player can score 55 (or more) it seems pretty comparable to how things have always been. It would be very different if the second best scorer had 45 goals.

Matthews has 14 ( 25.4%) more goals than the 2nd place scorer. That''s the highest margin of the cap era, surpassing Ovechkin's 13 (25%) in 08.

 

[authentic]

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen on this site and that is saying something.

Yes, a player who has literally been a part of HALF of his teams goals this year hasn't "consistently delivered crucial points" for his team. Okay bud!

I mean what he's saying isn't wrong. When two players are that close and one has a boatload more meaningful points and the other has the record for empty net points it's not a hard decision who to take

Seriously, anyone who thinks the Art Ross winner will not also get the Hart trophy is delusional.

There’s zero argument to give one trophy to player A and the other to player B. This year the winner takes it all

Lol why though?

 

[authentic]

McDavid is back tonight vs the Sharks.

Does anyone think he has a 7 or 8 point game in him tonight, and isn't completely out of the race just yet? With the insane season we've had so far, and McDavid's own track record, I won't completely dimiss this out of hand until tonight's game is over....would be fun to see, that's for sure

It's a possibility, more so that he has a performance that could give him 7 or 8 points but performances that good usually end up as 4 or 5 points with a bunch of close chances that he or his linemates couldn't quite capitalize on. I say he gets 4 points tonight.

 

[authentic]

and only 3 that have had 100 assists

5 after this season, Adam Oates also had 97 and paced for over 120 in 61 games one season. It's not this AINEC thing that people try to portray it as by stubbornly using only Gretzy/Lemieux/Orr doing it as the be all end all argument.

 

[Despote]

McDavid is back tonight vs the Sharks.

Does anyone think he has a 7 or 8 point game in him tonight, and isn't completely out of the race just yet? With the insane season we've had so far, and McDavid's own track record, I won't completely dimiss this out of hand until tonight's game is over....would be fun to see, that's for sure

I really doubt he's going to waste energy for that. He'll get the 100th assist and rest another game.

 

[Video Nasty]

5 after this season, Adam Oates also had 97 and paced for over 120 in 61 games one season. It's not this AINEC thing that people try to portray it as by stubbornly using only Gretzy/Lemieux/Orr doing it as the be all end all argument.

We could probably do something similar for 70 goals though, no? There’s the obvious close ones like Bossy’s 68 or 69 when he had only 80 games to work with, Lemieux’s pair of 69 goal seasons while missing 24 and 12 games off the schedule, Esposito’s once record 68 with just 78 games available, and so on.

Then of course, there must be examples comparable to Oates and assists, where someone was on pace for 70 goals while playing just 60 games.

 

[Beyonder91]

I mean what he's saying isn't wrong. When two players are that close and one has a boatload more meaningful points and the other has the record for empty net points it's not a hard decision who to take



Lol why though?

This idea that empty net points aren't at all meaningful is hilarious to me. Since when is securing a win not meaningful?
If you watch the games you will really see the skill that goes into many of these points by reading the ice and making plays... especially in your own zone.
Yes, I'm aware that it's more of a subjective stat as there are factors such as the number of close games you play with a late lead that can add a lot of variance year by year but it's not meaningless.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Some days old but regarding “cheap easy points” just a reminder:

View attachment 852066

That is insane, thanks for sharing. Kuch has more than double the amount of points (52) than McD and MacK (25 each) against top-10 opponents.

 

[TheStatican]

MacKinnon - can't compete in tough games/vs tough opponents, but racks up points against weaker opponents.

Kucherov - is a beast, the tougher the opponent the better his performance, ie allowing his team to compete/win in games where they'd have no chance without him.

Narratives are fun.

Kucherov will win the Ross and should win the Hart too. He's simply had the better season.

And this is a narrative that you believe in? That BOTH MacKinnon AND McDavid "can't compete in tough games/vs tough opponents, but rack up points against weaker opponents."

It is a fact, not a narrative that scoring levels playing against an empty net are about three times! as high as powerplay scoring, nevermind how absurdly easier they are to come by than even strength 5 on 5 scoring. These are the points that Kuch has padded his totals with;

 

[bobholly39]

And this is a narrative that you believe in? That BOTH MacKinnon AND McDavid "can't compete in tough games/vs tough opponents, but rack up points against weaker opponents."

Of course not - I was clearly exagarating for show. But it's just as silly as saying "let's cherry pick one player's points and subjectively decide how many of his points are not important".

 

[RussianGuyovich]

And this is a narrative that you believe in? That BOTH MacKinnon AND McDavid "can't compete in tough games/vs tough opponents, but rack up points against weaker opponents."

It is a fact, not a narrative that scoring levels playing against an empty net are about three times! as high as powerplay scoring, nevermind how absurdly easier they are to come by than even strength 5 on 5 scoring. These are the points that Kuch has padded his totals with;
View attachment 852214

I think I found the problem with your logic here: Padding stats and lots of points rules.

More points > less points.

 

[tabness]

5 after this season, Adam Oates also had 97 and paced for over 120 in 61 games one season. It's not this AINEC thing that people try to portray it as by stubbornly using only Gretzy/Lemieux/Orr doing it as the be all end all argument.

We could probably do something similar for 70 goals though, no? There’s the obvious close ones like Bossy’s 68 or 69 when he had only 80 games to work with, Lemieux’s pair of 69 goal seasons while missing 24 and 12 games off the schedule, Esposito’s once record 68 with just 78 games available, and so on.

Then of course, there must be examples comparable to Oates and assists, where someone was on pace for 70 goals while playing just 60 games.

how can we forget the ultimate pace player Sid Crosby who was pacing for 100+ assists in 2011-2012?

or predecessor Pete Forsberg who paced for 100+ assists in 2007-2008?