Nikita Gusev is already getting scratched..

[Melkor]

What you seem to not be getting is that he is in that position and he is failing. And so folks are attempting changes so that he will no longer fail. If he can't change, then it would seem that despite expectations he was never good enough to be an NHLer.

That's hardly an unusual position. There are many folks who are very good at hockey who are not NHL-capable.

What you seem to not get is that he is not.

 

[Viqsi]

Congratulations, you've rediscovered why +/- is unhelpful - what an irrelevant try to take a shot. I don't give two ****s about any defensive metrics including +/- when it comes to assessing a player whose strength is not a defense.
And yes, such a guy would be benched - And no, he wouldn't. Back up your words with actual examples of star forwards getting benched for negative ratio of goals for/ against and then we can talk. Otherwise, it's just a BS.

Hon? Gusev is not a star forward. He's not. Not in the NHL, anyways. If he was, he wouldn't be giving up so damn much. He has capabilities that he could use to make himself a star - and that's why NHL teams have interest in him - but he's not going all the way. He is not the first and would not be the last to be close to stardom yet fall short.

I would like to see him succeed at this level. He still has the chance to become a star. But he's demonstrated that he'd have to improve elsewhere for that to happen. And he's not there right now.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

It's too early to do that if you ask me.

Maybe in game 20 if he continues to be bad I'd understand, but way... too early.

 

[Melkor]

Hon? Gusev is not a star forward. He's not. Not in the NHL, anyways. If he was, he wouldn't be giving up so damn much. He has capabilities that he could use to make himself a star - and that's why NHL teams have interest in him - but he's not going all the way. He is not the first and would not be the last to be close to stardom yet fall short.

I would like to see him succeed at this level. But he's demonstrated that he'd have to improve elsewhere for that to happen.

You're insinuating that any player who scores 85 and has a negative ratio of scoring chances would be benched. Give some proof. Don't be reaching. Star or not a star, that imaginable player scoring 85 is clearly special to score that much.

 

[Oneiro]

Hynes scratches everybody that's not a veteran or number one pick.

This isn't a big deal.

 

[Vegan Knight]

I don't think calling Hynes a bad coach to try to say Gusev should be playing is a good argument. Gallant is definitely not a bad coach and refused to play him in the playoffs and did not want him on the team thus allowing him to be traded.

He just doesn't play the game as of now to succeed in the NHL and no one is going to make so many concessions for their team to try to get the most of one player when they have other players who are more complete whose skills they can maximize.

 

[StoneHands]

I'm not huge into possession number but a 34.4% Corsi while playing against 3rd and 4th lines is pitiful for a guy who is supposed to be a good offensive player. Anyone who is on the ice for 44 Corsi events for and 84 against through 9 games should be packing their bags in anticipation of getting sent down.

 

[BahlDeep]

The fact that people think it's a bad thing that Gusev sits with a cerebral ex-player like Elias should get checked

 

[SlapshotTheMovie]

Goose is not a good player. He can be a great scorer but that doesnt change he is below average at everything besides offense. Of course he should learn the other side of the puck but if you are signing a dude that is 27 and has years of footage on him and then expecting him to change his game in less then a year you are the ass hole not him. Devils look real stupid here. Just like the kings looked stupid as shit signing Kovi to a 6m contract and then putting him on the 4th line. Yes players should function in all 3 zones but if you sign a vet to a multi million dollar deal that has a long history of not playing 3 zone hockey and then publicly blast them for not playing 3 zone hockey thats on you.

 

[BahlDeep]

I'm not huge into possession number but a 34.4% Corsi while playing against 3rd and 4th lines is pitiful for a guy who is supposed to be a good offensive player. Anyone who is on the ice for 44 Corsi events for and 84 against through 9 games should be packing their bags in anticipation of getting sent down.

Reason is he can't play in his own zone. His positioning is awful.

 

[Viqsi]

You're insinuating that any player who score 85 and has a negative ratio of scoring chances would be benched. Give some proof. Don't be reaching. Star or not a star, that imaginable player scoring 85 is clearly special to score that much.

Not really. If you get someone who's constantly staying high in the neutral zone so that every defensive play with him on the ice is practically 5-on-4 but who's constantly getting breakaways from outlet passes as a result - and a coach that's sufficiently boneheaded that he lets that keep happening - you could have a player who scores like that without being particularly "special".

And your standards for evidence are inherently self-contradictory; you're hiding behind a non-falsifiable hypothesis. You want examples of guys who score a lot and get benched, but - bear with me here - it's a teensy bit difficult to keep scoring when you're on the bench. Guys who are that bad end up benched and not scoring more and losing ice time because coaches recognize the trend and pull those guys before they can do more damage. Which is what is presently being done with Gusev.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Gusev needs a leash if he's to succeed in the NHL. He may have been traded to the wrong coach. He's still a rookie in a sense.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I don't see any issue with this.

And i don't agree with any "see, another KHL failure" hot takes. I actually think the Devils are doing this because they like Gusev, and think that if they can just fix a couple of things he'll be a really good player. Otherwise they'd just scratch his ass without saying a word and look for a way out.

We all know Gusev isn't good without the puck, however there are things with timing that are fixable. I was watching the KHL for a few weeks before the NHL season and it just reminded me how different the game is over there. Gusev seems to sometimes try rushing things because he thinks he doesn't have time, or take too long when he doesn't see the pressure coming.

Obviously playing for the Devils right now sort of magnifies his shortcomings as the whole team have struggled. If he was playing for a structured team that just needed some offense it would be easier to look the other way. It was pretty easy for a guy like Panarin to come in to a Hawks team that only needed someone to play with Kane and the rest would take care of itself.

When you combine the preseason and regular season we've already seen what he's capable of offensively. All his goals have/should've been important ones. Freed the team from pressure in the 1st game scoring the opening goal which led to 3 unanswered, goal against Edmonton put them up 2-1 in a game that they probably should've won and he scored practially the gamer winner in their first win of the season in the 3rd when it looked like the Rangers had all the momentum to tie the game up. And in the preseason especially we saw some of the elite passes he's able to dish out.

It's completely different to Shipachyov who looked invisible/totally out of his element most of the time in all the games he played.

In other words, from what i've seen, i think he's an NHL player. Just needs to figure some stuff out.

 

[Albatros]

I'm not huge into possession number but a 34.4% Corsi while playing against 3rd and 4th lines is pitiful for a guy who is supposed to be a good offensive player. Anyone who is on the ice for 44 Corsi events for and 84 against through 9 games should be packing their bags in anticipation of getting sent down.

He also has 62.2 percent defensive zone starts which makes little sense for a player whose qualities are all at the other end of the rink. He's been severely misused and his numbers merely confirm that fact.

 

[Melkor]

Not really. If you get someone who's constantly staying high in the neutral zone so that every defensive play with him on the ice is practically 5-on-4 but who's constantly getting breakaways from outlet passes as a result - and a coach that's sufficiently boneheaded that he lets that keep happening - you could have a player who scores like that without being particularly "special".

And your standards for evidence are inherently self-contradictory; you're hiding behind a non-falsifiable hypothesis. You want examples of guys who score a lot and get benched, but - bear with me here - it's a teensy bit difficult to keep scoring when you're on the bench. Guys who are that bad end up benched and not scoring more and losing ice time because coaches recognize the trend and pull those guys before they can do more damage. Which is what is presently being done with Gusev.

I said don't be reaching and you did exactly that. Nobody, even a complete liability without the puck, plays like that anymore, doesnt matter NHL or KHL. About standards: Ovechkin has never been benched in the years when he was terrible defensively. And he hasnt even been scoring A GOAL PER GAME like you assumed. Same with Malkin. Same with Tavares. Those guys have had a lot of off years as a defensive players and were allowed to play and produce. So those examples are very easy to find if you don't have an established narrative that you want 5 capable defenders on the ice which is a rare thing even in the NHL.

 

[Viqsi]

I don't see any issue with this.

And i don't agree with any "see, another KHL failure" hot takes. I actually think the Devils are doing this because they like Gusev, and think that if they can just fix a couple of things he'll be a really good player. Otherwise they'd just scratch his ass without saying a word and look for a way out.

We all know Gusev isn't good without the puck, however there are things with timing that are fixable. I was watching the KHL for a few weeks before the NHL season and it just reminded me how different the game is over there. Gusev seems to sometimes try rushing things because he thinks he doesn't have time, or take too long when he doesn't see the pressure coming.

Obviously playing for the Devils right now sort of magnifies his shortcomings as the whole team have struggled. If he was playing for a structured team that just needed some offense it would be easier to look the other way. It was pretty easy for a guy like Panarin to come in to a Hawks team that only needed someone to play with Kane and the rest would take care of itself.

When you combine the preseason and regular season we've already seen what he's capable of offensively. All his goals have/should've been important ones. Freed the team from pressure in the 1st game scoring the opening goal which led to 3 unanswered, goal against Edmonton put them up 2-1 in a game that they probably should've won and he scored practially the gamer winner in their first win of the season in the 3rd when it looked like the Rangers had all the momentum to tie the game up. And in the preseason especially we saw some of the elite passes he's able to dish out.

It's completely different to Shipachyov who looked invisible/totally out of his element most of the time in all the games he played.

In other words, from what i've seen, i think he's an NHL player. Just needs to figure some stuff out.

I think he's ultimately capable of being an NHL player. He's just not showing it right now.

(And Panarin was never "bad" defensively. )

* * *​

He also has 62.2 percent defensive zone starts which makes little sense for a player whose qualities are all at the other end of the rink. He's been severely misused and his numbers merely confirm that fact.

Zone start stats are known to be somewhat less than helpful because they're exclusively about faceoffs, and most folks get on the ice with in-play shift changes (which are less easily classified as "offensive" or "defensive").

 

[traparatus]

I'd like to see good players get signed by teams that like them the way they are and put him in a position to succeed, not get frustrated while 'changing' and leave for home disappointed.

I don't think any team liked Gusev the way he is. That's why Vegas didn't commit to him and New Jersey paid a very moderate price for a player with obvious offensive ability.

You know, there is a possibility that a winning NHL club cannot have Gusev being Gusev on their roster.

 

[Albatros]

Zone start stats are known to be somewhat less than helpful because they're exclusively about faceoffs, and most folks get on the ice with in-play shift changes (which are less easily classified as "offensive" or "defensive").

In principle yes, but usually the starts reflect the general usage quite well. And anyway we're talking about a guy with just over 12 minutes of ice time which is a dozen or so shifts.

 

[Viqsi]

I said don't be reaching and you did exactly that. Nobody, even a complete liability without the puck, plays like that anymore, doesnt matter NHL or KHL. About standards: Ovechkin has never been benched in the years when he was terrible defensively. And he hasnt even been scoring A GOAL PER GAME like you assumed. Same with Malkin. Same with Tavares. Those guys have had a lot of off years as a defensive players and were allowed to play and produce. So those examples are very easy to find if you don't have an established narrative that you want 5 capable defenders on the ice which is a rare thing even in the NHL.

There's a massive difference between "off years defensively" for those guys and what Gusev is doing now. An "off year" for Ovechkin/Malkin/Tavares is dipping into the upper 40s in CF%. Gusev is in the mid-to-low 30s.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

You're insinuating that any player who scores 85 and has a negative ratio of scoring chances would be benched. Give some proof. Don't be reaching. Star or not a star, that imaginable player scoring 85 is clearly special to score that much.

Nobody in the NHL is actually scoring 85 points and giving up nearly as much as Gusev is because the players who give up as much as Gusev does don’t get to play enough minutes or games to post that kind of production. And because the players with the potential to post that kind of production are players who don’t give up remotely as much as Gusev does.

 

[Viqsi]

In principle yes, but usually the starts reflect the general usage quite well. And anyway we're talking about a guy with just over 12 minutes of ice time which is a dozen or so shifts.

See "limiting damage" w/r/t shift count.

 

[Melkor]

I don't think any team liked Gusev the way he is. That's why Vegas didn't commit to him and New Jersey paid a very moderate price for a player with obvious offensive ability.

You know, there is a possibility that a winning NHL club cannot have Gusev being Gusev on their roster.

The thing is there are not many winning clubs, to put it softly. Many clubs objectively can't win it all in the near future and NJD is definitely not a "winning" one.

 

[HBK27]

I'd be glad if that happens. Especially would be glad to see it by GMs who can't assess a player well and sign him already with intention to change his game.

You're really jumping to conclusions here. You have zero clue what went into the Devils management team scouting and assessing Gusev or that they had any intention of radically changing his game.

Regardless of how well he performed in the KHL, it's still a massive step up to the NHL - including getting use to a smaller ice surface. Who knows where Gusev's game is right now versus his peak in the KHL or how much the Devils are really looking to change it. You can't just oversimplify it as "you knew he didn't play defense well, so how dare they ask him to play defense well".

Quite honestly, I'm also fairly certain that the Devils were able to talk to Gusev's camp prior to trading for him (thus, he signed his contract immediately as the trade was announced), so I'm sure there were some conversations about expectations.

He's not playing well enough right now, is still a rookie in this league and at this point is taking a game off to watch and discuss his game with Elias. Pavel Zacha is in his 4th full season with the Devils and he was scratched a game earlier this season and has come back to be one of NJ's best forwards since. It's not that big of a deal right now.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I think he's ultimately capable of being an NHL player. He's just not showing it right now.

(And Panarin was never "bad" defensively. )

Yeah, i wasn't comparing the two, but rather the environment which is vastly different. It's tough to feel comfortable in your first steps in the league when the whole team is under a ton of pressure and finding ways to lose.

But there are differences between the two for sure. Gusev will never be a top line star player. He's probably more situational, like playing ~15 mins on a 2nd line with players who compliment him + one of the PP units. And there's nothing wrong with that. But the Devils are somewhat lacking those players you could put him with, they have plenty of options going full out offense but then the line just turns into a defensive liability.

If i was the Devils i'd try something like Gusev - Hischier - Coleman. Or full offense with Hall/Hischier but those two guys have to be going offensively for it to work.

 

[HBK27]

He also has 62.2 percent defensive zone starts which makes little sense for a player whose qualities are all at the other end of the rink. He's been severely misused and his numbers merely confirm that fact.

You have zero clue how he has been used, as you never watch Devils games despite your consistent criticism of them and their players.

The zone start numbers are also a bit misleading, as NJ's poor start to the season has resulted in many more defensive zone starts with 16 players above 50% versus just 5 below.