Player Discussion Nick Suzuki Part 11

[SlafySZN]

If you are referring to upside just at scoring goals, sure Caufield has more upside and we know you value that a lot. Where many of us disagrees with you is that there is way more to the game than just scoring goals.[/I]

But then why are the same people saying they don’t care about him getting more assists, pass the puck more or be better in his own zone and or the forecheck, that only goals count for him?

 

[SlafySZN]

Nobody said Caufield is finished and what I'm saying should be crystal clear.

If you take into account events surrounding one player's performance you have to do likewise with the other.
There is an ENTIRE body of work that has to be looked at and digested.

Nothing sneaky about it Suzuki has been the model of consistency.
The ups and downs throughout 82 games for someone in his position with his responsibilities are completely NORMAL.

Never said it wasn’t normal. The conversation people had last year was consistency to be a 1C, not consistency at large.

 

[JianYang]

There were no seasons where Kovalev was consistently engaged as he would never have produced under 100 points. Kovalev's best was when he wouldn't take entire games off and would show up when a big goal was needed. The guy just consistently showing up for half a game was his idea of consistency.

I loved and hated him often multiple times in the same game lol. The benefit of having him on your team is you had a legitimate world class superstar for the big moments in tight games that you were only paying half of what other teams were paying for superstars who were much more consistent. He would look like the bad version of Armia for half of the game, seemingly disinterested and not involved then he would become Jagr when the game was on the line.

The point totals have to be taken relatively. For example, Kovalev's 84 point season maybe doesnt look super impressive these days, but it was good enough for 11th best in league back then, and I imagine out of the 10 guys infront of him, most had a better supporting cast from an offensive standpoint.

That year, the Habs were must watch TV, and the driver was Kovalev as he was consistently dialed in, including the playoffs.

 

[The Great Weal]

But then why are the same people saying they don’t care about him getting more assists, pass the puck more or be better in his own zone and or the forecheck, that only goals count for him?

Unless Cole improves to the point where he becomes a defensive force and is used in key defensive situations and/or is putting up an absurd amount of assists, the improvements he's made this year on his overall game don't compensate for being half the goalscorer he should be as a sniper.

 

[SlafySZN]

Unless Cole improves to the point where he becomes a defensive force and is used in key defensive situations and/or is putting up an absurd amount of assists, the improvements he's made this year on his overall game don't compensate for being half the goalscorer he should be as a sniper.

While he recovers completely from the surgery and find his shot again, he does try to bring other things and i think, even if nothing will top the goal scoring it’s still nice to know he could make plays and help in other ways in the games he won’t score in the futur in normal seasons. It’s the difference between being a 40-25, 65 points or 40-35, 75 + player

 

[The Great Weal]

While he recovers completely from the surgery and find his shot again, he does try to bring other things and i think, even if nothing will top the goal scoring it’s still nice to know he could make plays and help in other ways in the games he won’t score in the futur when the goals will be back again in normal seasons.

But it's not going to compensate for that at all. Sure we can write this season off due to his shoulder, but it's still not a good year for him as a sniper. Unless you're content that Caufield went from a 40 goalscorer to a 20-25 goalscorer with improved overall play but still not good enough, it's obvious that this isn't the Caufield you want to see for the future.

 

[SlafySZN]

But it's not going to compensate for that at all. Sure we can write this season off due to his shoulder, but it's still not a good year for him as a sniper. Unless you're content that Caufield went from a 40 goalscorer to a 20-25 goalscorer with improved overall play but still not good enough, it's obvious that this isn't the Caufield you want to see for the future.

I’m not saying it’s a good year in terms of scoring, it’s obvious but what i’m saying is that going forward when he’ll find his shot again it’s other tools he could use when he has 3-4 games of not scoring.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

The point totals have to be taken relatively. For example, Kovalev's 84 point season maybe doesnt look super impressive these days, but it was good enough for 11th best in league back then, and I imagine out of the 10 guys infront of him, most had a better supporting cast from an offensive standpoint.

That year, the Habs were must watch TV, and the driver was Kovalev as he was consistently dialed in, including the playoffs.

Kovalev was always in the top 3 in the entire league as far as talent and that particular team was a high scoring group that lead the entire league in goals scored. That was still a great season to watch him play but everyone to a man would admit that even then he was still underachieving relative to his skill and was still taking way too many shifts off.

It should also be pointed out that he was 20th in the league in points per game that season and really was not that close to being a top ten point producer on a per game basis.

I am not trying to sh*t on Kovalev any more than he deserves as has been well documented over his entire career by teammates and coaches because I truly did enjoy his moments of utter domination but it was frustrating to know that he could do that whenever he wanted and only chose to do so when he felt like it. The fun part is he often felt like doing it in the biggest moments and it was truly incredible to watch.

 

[Rapala]

Never said it wasn’t normal. The conversation people had last year was consistency to be a 1C, not consistency at large.

Not the poster I was taking a dig at the conversation was all about Caufield being the superior player.
I thought the 48 in 82 was a dead giveaway.

But then why are the same people saying they don’t care about him getting more assists, pass the puck more or be better in his own zone and or the forecheck, that only goals count for him?

Who exactly are those people are they found in the Nick Suzuki thread or the Cole Caufield thread?

 

[SlafySZN]

Who exactly are those people are they found in the Nick Suzuki thread or the Cole Caufield thread?

Pretty much everywhere i'd say.

This thread is now a thread to take digs at Caufield though, apparently.

 

[Redux91]

Pretty much everywhere i'd say.

This thread is now a thread to take digs at Caufield though, apparently.

Did you... SEE the digs Suzuki was getting all god damn summer....?
In the caufield thread too no less.

It was beyond deplorable. I even said before the year, I'm keeping receipts lol

 

[SlafySZN]

Did you... SEE the digs Suzuki was getting all god damn summer....?
In the caufield thread too no less.

It was beyond deplorable. I even said before the year, I'm keeping receipts lol

I didn't see digs, to be honest it started with some who didn't think he was a 1C or consistant enough to be at the time and some didn't agree and were mad at those opinions like it was some insults to Suzuki.

 

[Redux91]

I didn't see digs, to be honest it started with some who didn't think he was a 1C or consistant enough to be at the time and some didn't agree and were mad at those opinions like it was some insults to Suzuki.

Well my friend
You just explained exactly what is happening to Caufield right now

So I guess you definition of 'digs' might be a bit off

 

[JianYang]

Kovalev was always in the top 3 in the entire league as far as talent and that particular team was a high scoring group that lead the entire league in goals scored. That was still a great season to watch him play but everyone to a man would admit that even then he was still underachieving relative to his skill and was still taking way too many shifts off.

It should also be pointed out that he was 20th in the league in points per game that season and really was not that close to being a top ten point producer on a per game basis.

I am not trying to sh*t on Kovalev any more than he deserves as has been well documented over his entire career by teammates and coaches because I truly did enjoy his moments of utter domination but it was frustrating to know that he could do that whenever he wanted and only chose to do so when he felt like it. The fun part is he often felt like doing it in the biggest moments and it was truly incredible to watch.

There are some pretty easy seasons to pick on in kovalev's career where he underachieved particularly in new york and montreal. But to pick on his 07-08 season is really odd. He was involved in so many big moments, and it was the most fun I had watching a team since the 93 run.

I didn't go into a game hoping that kovalev showed up that season. I expected him to show up, and that's what he did. Nobody quite found a way to unlock him year after year, but he was a beast in that season.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I would say Malkin when the Pens were winning cups was the ideal #2.

But both are great #1's.


Suzuki is having a better year this year. But Caufield could still have huge offensive years in the future.

Malkin was an elite #1C playing on a team that had Sidney Crosby.

Obviously it would be ideal to have two elite #1 C's but that is not something that you can necessarily just say, "hey I have an idea, let's build our team with two mega star centers"... then go out and get them lol. I don't think other teams weren't doing it because it didn't occur to them.

Not bustin' your balls buddy.....just that calling Malkin the ideal 2nd line center was the understatement of the day and had to be called out

 

[26Mats]

Malkin was an elite #1C playing on a team that had Sidney Crosby.

Obviously it would be ideal to have two elite #1 C's but that is not something that you can necessarily just say, "hey I have an idea, let's build our team with two mega star centers"... then go out and get them lol. I don't think other teams weren't doing it because it didn't occur to them.

Not bustin' your balls buddy.....just that calling Malkin the ideal 2nd line center was the understatement of the day and had to be called out

Yeah, I was being sarcastic in response to the player who called Suzuki an ideal #2C - it's demeaning to his qualities as a 1C.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

There are some pretty easy seasons to pick on in kovalev's career where he underachieved particularly in new york and montreal. But to pick on his 07-08 season is really odd. He was involved in so many big moments, and it was the most fun I had watching a team since the 93 run.

I didn't go into a game hoping that kovalev showed up that season. I expected him to show up, and that's what he did. Nobody quite found a way to unlock him year after year, but he was a beast in that season.

I'm not picking on him as that was a fun season to watch him but he was still the 20th scorer in the league on a ppg basis on the highest scoring team in the league. He factually did not show up for very few if any games from start to finish and most of them he was invisible for two periods before working his magic. Sometimes he would show up early and then shut it down other than the odd flash. There is no doubt that he should have been at least a top 5 scorer in the league that year if he had put in a consistent effort. The difference between that season and most of his other seasons that he didn't disappear for games at a time and seemed to play for a chance to be the hero in a hockey mad city.

I would take that Kovalev back any day, especially at the bargain price that he played for. The other seasons that he played in Montreal are a hard no as he set a terrible example by disappearing for long stretches of the season and caused rifts in the locker room by creating sycophants and pushing back against Koivu's demand for players to show up and be accountable.

 

[JianYang]

I'm not picking on him as that was a fun season to watch him but he was still the 20th scorer in the league on a ppg basis on the highest scoring team in the league. He factually did not show up for very few if any games from start to finish and most of them he was invisible for two periods before working his magic. Sometimes he would show up early and then shut it down other than the odd flash. There is no doubt that he should have been at least a top 5 scorer in the league that year if he had put in a consistent effort. The difference between that season and most of his other seasons that he didn't disappear for games at a time and seemed to play for a chance to be the hero in a hockey mad city.

I would take that Kovalev back any day, especially at the bargain price that he played for. The other seasons that he played in Montreal are a hard no as he set a terrible example by disappearing for long stretches of the season and caused rifts in the locker room by creating sycophants and pushing back against Koivu's demand for players to show up and be accountable.

I think your reaching here. This was a kovalev in his mid 30s who put up a fantastic year, and was instrumental in being the highest scoring team, and having the #1 PP. He was on point that year and he did not dissapear at all.

Interesting. First time I heard he was a divisive issue in the room, and im curious why they would put the captaincy on him if that was the case.

Do you have some anecdotes about this?

 

[Ozmodiar]

probably best to keep Caufield’s name out of this thread. He’s not comparable to Suzuki. Different tier altogether.

There was a poll last season that tried to compare the two and it was overwhelmingly in Suzuki’s favour (90% +). It’d be even more lopsided now.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I think your reaching here. This was a kovalev in his mid 30s who put up a fantastic year, and was instrumental in being the highest scoring team, and having the #1 PP. He was on point that year and he did not dissapear at all.

Interesting. First time I heard he was a divisive issue in the room, and im curious why they would put the captaincy on him if that was the case.

Do you have some anecdotes about this?

I do not feel as though I am reaching as he absolutely was still disappearing and floating for segments of every game and the fact that he was still so supremely talented and superior to other players in his mid thirties is a testament to much he floated for his entire career. You can't possibly be suggesting that a player who was universally acknowledged as one of the greatest enigma's to ever play the game with tons of testimony from ex teammates, coaches and managers about his frustrating work ethic. Just decided to play one season in Montreal as a 60 minute warrior.

The fact that he put up his second most productive season in his mid thirties absolutely is evidence that he put in perhaps the best effort of his career that season and I completely agree with that. But.....I was there as was this entire board and even during that season where we all loved him he provided plenty of frustration and what if's in regard to his disappearing during games and untapped potential that was still there even in his mid thirties. This was the same season where he pulled that disgusting act in O.T. against Boston that cost us a big playoff game. He came back and redeemed himself later in the series but this was a very apt microcosm of his entire career and to a lesser extent that season.

He also was never officially captain of the Montreal Canadiens but did wear it while Koivu was injured. There was a lot of speculation that it was given to him in order to instill some drive onto him as he was back to floating a lot more that season and Bob Gainey even had meetings with him in order to try and get him back to where he was the previous season.

His absolute failure as an interim captain and team leader is why Gainey let him go after that season, only one year removed from his 84 point season. He then went on to be a bum everywhere else that he played. Kovalev was not given the C as a function of merit, he was given the C as a desperate attempt to jump start the team by trying to breathe life into their best player.

We can disagree about how much he was disappearing in his 84 point season as he has done it every season to varying degrees and this would be the correct approach as I am sure that neither one of us thinks that he was a 60 minute warrior or a floating bum that season. There is plenty of subjectivity that is acceptable to disagree on as long as neither of the two stances that I outlined are being offered as fact. I would take that Kovalev at that salary (adjusted) every day of the week, so we both agree that he had a great season. We are likely quite close in our overall opinion of what he provided that year so I don't see the point in continuing to debate it when it will just be us swimming in semantic soup and never reaching an absolute agreement.

 

[JianYang]

I am not reaching as he absolutely was still disappearing and floating for segments of every game and the fact that he was still so supremely talented and superior to other players in his mid thirties is a testament to much he floated for his entire career. You can't possibly be suggesting that a player who was universally acknowledged as one of the greatest enigma's to ever play the game with tons of testimony from ex teammates, coaches and managers about his frustrating work ethic. Just decided to play one season in Montreal as a 60 minute warrior.

The fact that he put up his second most productive season in his mid thirties absolutely is evidence that he put in perhaps the best effort of his career that season and I completely agree with that. But.....I was there as was this entire board and even during that season where we all loved him he provided plenty of frustration and what if's in regard to his disappearing during games and untapped potential that was still there even in his mid thirties. This was the same season where he pulled that disgusting act in O.T. against Boston that cost us a big playoff game. He came back and redeemed himself later in the series but this was a very apt microcosm of his entire career and to a lesser extent that season.

He also was never officially captain of the Montreal Canadiens but did wear it while Koivu was injured. There was a lot of speculation that it was given to him in order to instill some drive onto him as he was back to floating a lot more that season and Bob Gainey even had meetings with him in order to try and get him back to where he was the previous season.

His absolute failure as an interim captain and team leader is why Gainey let him go after that season, only one year removed from his 84 point season. He then went on to be a bum everywhere else that he played. Kovalev was not given the C as a function of merit, he was given the C as a desperate attempt to jump start the team by trying to breathe life into their best player.

It bears repeating that what I'm responding to is specifically the 07/08 season where I don't think he was "floating". That's where our disagreement lies.

I have said from the beginning that he was an underachiever in his career in general, particularly in New York and montreal. Therefore, there's no reason to debate that.

ill steer clear of the specularion aspect of your response and just provide a timeline of the events which you are referring to.

The overtime incident against Boston was 2004. The walk with Gainey where he suggested kovalev to take some time off I believe happened in 06/07. Again, we are talking specifically about 07/08.

 

[Zilo44]

His production puts lots of thing in perspective.

Many pro tank people (myself included) felt the rebuild was in danger since we missed out on the 4 top centres last year.

For so long, Montreal had major issues with development. When I try to think of players who overachieved after 2010, the only guy that comes to mind is Gallagher.

Before that, it was not as bad with Plekanec, Paciorretty and Subban being great examples of proper develpment.

Yet, we are now realizing that the Adam Nicholas addition along with coaches working on development instead of immediate results is having a huge impact on the rebuild despite the lack of a bona fide 1c prospect in the pipeline.

Here we are today, with what might be our 1C of the future without sacrificing the culture or outright dumping players like Chicago

 

[Rapala]

Missing out on four top centers last year was BAD real bad.
You can never have enough of this top commodity.
Kirby Dach and Sean Monahan have made that very clear whenever we've have had to deal with their absence.
When Team Canada gets named for 2026 we may see as many as 6 natural centers.

 

[SlafySZN]

probably best to keep Caufield’s name out of this thread. He’s not comparable to Suzuki. Different tier altogether.

There was a poll last season that tried to compare the two and it was overwhelmingly in Suzuki’s favour (90% +). It’d be even more lopsided now.

It’s some users who wanted to try and shit on Caufield that brought his name to this thread last 2 pages.

Also with Caufield having probably his worse goal scoring season he’ll have in his career. Looks like it makes some people happy for some reasons.

 

[Ozmodiar]

Missing out on four top centers last year was BAD real bad.
You can never have enough of this top commodity.
Kirby Dach and Sean Monahan have made that very clear whenever we have had to deal with their absence.
When Team Canada gets named for 2026 we may see as many as 6 natural centers.

It wouldn’t be surprising. 2010 team had 8 centers.