Rumor: NHL Talk 21/22: It's real, and it's spectacular

Status
Not open for further replies.

OgeeOgelthorpe

Baldina
Feb 29, 2020
17,170
18,272
Evander Kane Stats | Hockey-Reference.com

I think we have very different definitions of greatness. I see a career that is solid from an on-ice perspective, and a ticking time bomb from a personal perspective, but zero evidence of greatness in either area.

Same.

Talented player. Can be good to very good, but he can also hurt your team with undisciplined play and the off ice shit. Guys gambling on him are desperate.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,238
15,019
crease
He is still a great player and it is only a half season. What is the worst that happens? They miss the playoffs? They are trending that way anyway. Talent gives a long leash. Just look at Antonio Brown.

I'm clamouring for that Ken Holland press conference after Kane makes a shirtless departure in the middle of the second period.
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
15,042
7,252
Edm is a mess. They are not the Pens. Malkin and Crosby committed early on to a 200ft game with some grit. I hated them as a Wings fan, but you had to recognize how special they were as players. They also took pretty solid deals even at the time they signed them. That allowed the pens to fill in some low cost vets.

It's incredibility hard to build a team around a 12+ mil forward. Then there was the Keith trade which made no sense. I get wanting to add vet leadership but not a guy on his way out, with a huge cap hit, giving up assets, that has already won a bunch of cups. Bring in the vet that hasn't won one yet. The Dallas Drake/ Duke kind of guy. Then there was the issue of completely not addressing the goalie situation. Yeah you can go for a middling guy if you have the likes of Lids, Konstaninov, Chelios, Rafalski etc on your dline, not so much when your best dman is Nurse (who is about to probably be overpaid).

The best thing Edm could do is probably deal McDavid to help solidify defense/ goaltending and then sign some offensive depth/grit. Build around Drai and his 4 mil lower cap hit.

Crosby's first non ELC deal was 15.3% of the cap the first year of it and Malkin's was 14.6%(same deal but a year later so the cap was slightly higher)

McDavid's contract was 15.7% of the cap the first year of it and is 15.3% now

pretty negligible difference there and more than offset by Draisaitl's relative bargain compared to the other 3(11.3% first year of the deal and 10.4% now)

Edmonton has a lot of problems but McDavid/Draisaitl's deals aren't one of them
 

Oddbob

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
15,921
10,465
Crosby's first non ELC deal was 15.3% of the cap the first year of it and Malkin's was 14.6%(same deal but a year later so the cap was slightly higher)

McDavid's contract was 15.7% of the cap the first year of it and is 15.3% now

pretty negligible difference there and more than offset by Draisaitl's relative bargain compared to the other 3(11.3% first year of the deal and 10.4% now)

Edmonton has a lot of problems but McDavid/Draisaitl's deals aren't one of them

Yeah, when Crosby and Malkin signed their deals, they weren't considered major bargains. They were two of the highest paid guys in the league, and as you pointed out, Edmonton is similar with two high paid players at the top. Difference is, Pitt found the rest of a championship roster and Edmonton has not. They also got somewhat lucky that their other top picks panned out, guys like Fleury and Letang etc., while the Oilers guys all disappointed or failed completely.
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
15,042
7,252
Watching Andrei Svechnikov makes me sad we didn't get a little lottery luck to grab him. Such a powerful, dynamic player.

didn't the Wings reportedly have Zadina above him on their draft boards for some reason? I recall reading that on here a few times over the years

that could have been painful :laugh:
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,831
4,714
Cleveland
Yeah, when Crosby and Malkin signed their deals, they weren't considered major bargains. They were two of the highest paid guys in the league, and as you pointed out, Edmonton is similar with two high paid players at the top. Difference is, Pitt found the rest of a championship roster and Edmonton has not. They also got somewhat lucky that their other top picks panned out, guys like Fleury and Letang etc., while the Oilers guys all disappointed or failed completely.

Well, the first year of Crosby's deal was 08/09. Malkin's was 09/10. Pittsburgh won it all in 09 (before Malkin's deal kicked in) and then didn't win again until...2016? As you point out, the Pens had way more pieces in place in 09 with the first year of Crosby's deal than the Oil have had at any point with McDavid and Draisaitl. But the fact that Pittsburgh didn't break through again for another six years after both of their guys were inked to bigger deals kinda points to those big deals being a problem when filling out the rest of the roster.

We've seen similar issues in Toronto, where Matthews/Tavares/Marner has just destroyed their cap room.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,340
912
GPP Michigan
"As the manager, I think it's my job to protect people and make sure they're ready. Play the kids, play the kids... when the kids make mistakes, we don't like the kids. I'd rather wait a little too long than move too soon." -Holland on waiting for his goaltending to improve.

At least he's consistent.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,238
15,019
crease
"As the manager, I think it's my job to protect people and make sure they're ready. Play the kids, play the kids... when the kids make mistakes, we don't like the kids. I'd rather wait a little too long than move too soon." -Holland on waiting for his goaltending to improve.

At least he's consistent.

He's patient to a fault. But, on the other hand, the discussion on this very board lately regarding Zadina and Ras illustrates what Holland says isn't without merit.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
11,000
8,752
He's patient to a fault. But, on the other hand, the discussion on this very board lately regarding Zadina and Ras illustrates what Holland says isn't without merit.
There's some truth to what you say. But there's also relevant context for expectation levels. Konavalov is a third round pick in Edmonton, while Zadina and Rasmussen were top ten selections.

Fans still do tend to be impatient, yes. But a kid taken at #6 and bragging he will fill the nets of the teams that passed on him is a bit different than a third rounder.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
21,238
15,019
crease
There's some truth to what you say. But there's also relevant context for expectation levels. Konavalov is a third round pick in Edmonton, while Zadina and Rasmussen were top ten selections.

Fans still do tend to be impatient, yes. But a kid taken at #6 and bragging he will fill the nets of the teams that passed on him is a bit different than a third rounder.

That's just expectations, though. That's our own biases from a players performance when they were teenagers. I really don't see how Zadina's comments, or spot taken, change the plan other than make people roll their eyes as his hubris. When you're drafted has nothing to do with your actual development and where you fit on the team in that moment.

You work with what you have in front of you - not what you expected to have or think you should have.
 

golffuul

Registered User
Oct 24, 2011
4,923
2,784
That's just expectations, though. That's our own biases from a players performance when they were teenagers. I really don't see how Zadina's comments, or spot taken, change the plan other than make people roll their eyes as his hubris. When you're drafted has nothing to do with your actual development and where you fit on the team in that moment.

You work with what you have in front of you - not what you expected to have or think you should have.
This. The only things that matter for any player is their effort level, their conditioning, and their desire to improve. As long as you are getting those three things, consistently, out of a player...they will be successful.

Matthieu Perrault led the Q in scoring the same year that Giroux was going nuts. And he has also finished 3rd in scoring (114 and 119 points respectively in those years). As a professional he has never had more than 18 goals or 45 points. But he has longevity in the league and is considered a valuable player on whatever team has played on. Granted he was a 6th round pick in his draft year because he hadn't quite grown into his frame nor adjusted to the QMJHL, but he went from 52 points to 114 after he was drafted.

In short, even with high expectations, it's 90% up to the player to be successful. If they are putting their best effort in, they will be as successful as they were going to be.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
7,446
"As the manager, I think it's my job to protect people and make sure they're ready. Play the kids, play the kids... when the kids make mistakes, we don't like the kids. I'd rather wait a little too long than move too soon." -Holland on waiting for his goaltending to improve.

At least he's consistent.

Yeah, because it's the smartest way to be. Fans can be cavalier about play the kids, play the kids because it isn't their job if the kids got hotrodded up and flame out and now you're stuck. Holland is big on depth and minimizing the downside. Now, especially in a cap world, that means potentially deflating your upside too. He kept the Wings in a place where if they had hit some massive luck with a stud in 15-18, they would have rocketed back up very quickly.
 

golffuul

Registered User
Oct 24, 2011
4,923
2,784
For anybody who ever joined the, "Holland has reached his expiration date" crowd, here's a VERY Deadspin (and NSFW) take on his lack of success thus far in Edmonton:

State of team address shows Oilers’ Ken Holland is totally clueless

(His tenure here is water under the bridge. But I chuckled a couple times.)
The headline of the article says all anyone needs to know. We know that his success was due to having no salary cap and having a lot of money to spend.
 

FabricDetails

HF still in need of automated text analytics
Mar 30, 2009
8,141
3,905
  • Like
Reactions: RayMoonDoh

The Zermanator

In Yzerman We Trust
Jan 21, 2013
3,391
1,200
Holland's reputation was built in a different era with completely different circumstances. No salary cap, an owner willing to sign whatever check Holland presented him with, and a team that was already a contender and able to attract good free agents when he assumed his role. And the scouting landscape was also completely different. Stories like Detroit drafting Datsyuk late being the only team who saw him play just don't really happen anymore. To be clear, he deserves the reputation he built over the mid-90s to mid-2000s. He was an important part of the organization for several years before his tenure as GM began. And he took the hand he was dealt and made the most of it. He is one of the most important influences, perhaps the most important, in one of the greatest eras in Red wings history. He was the right man at the right time.

But he just isn't made for this era. He had a few good years in the salary cap era but that was 90% due to Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg, relics from that earlier, dominant era. His drafting in the cap era has not been great, granted he traded away a lot of 1sts. But after Kronwall he basically didn't draft another top player for a decade until Larkin came along. His free agent signings and trades were atrocious in the worst instances, and sad vegetable farts in the best instances. Uninspired and conservative to a fault, and the team on the ice reflected that. The years after Lidstrom retired until Holland's departure were the worst in a long time. An excuse is often made for him that he was ordered to continue the playoff streak for Mike Ilitch's last years. That is a relevant point to raise, but I don't find it sufficient to excuse the state the team ended up in. He may have been ordered to consider the playoff streak a priority, but I really doubt he was micromanaged in any meaningful way. He was just given a priority and the execution is up to him. So the hanging onto vets well past their useful years, the handcuffing of the team with terrible long term contracts, and the few draft picks amounting to difference-makers are all 100% on Holland.

He had a legendary decade and a half as GM, and his place in the HOF is warranted. But the game has passed him by and he should just retire before he tarnishes his image more. There is a small chance he is able to get a Cup with Edmonton, he has the best player in the game and another top 3-5 player in the league on his roster. But the results so far don't look promising. And his tenure in Edmonton is looking like a continuation of 2011-2018 Holland and that doesn't bode well for the Oilers. I shudder to imagine an alternate reality where Yzerman never left Tampa and Holland is still the GM in Detroit today.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jaster

jaster

Take me off ignore, please.
Jun 8, 2007
13,270
8,486
Holland's reputation was built in a different era with completely different circumstances. No salary cap, an owner willing to sign whatever check Holland presented him with, and a team that was already a contender and able to attract good free agents when he assumed his role. And the scouting landscape was also completely different. Stories like Detroit drafting Datsyuk late being the only team who saw him play just don't really happen anymore. To be clear, he deserves the reputation he built over the mid-90s to mid-2000s. He was an important part of the organization for several years before his tenure as GM began. And he took the hand he was dealt and made the most of it. He is one of the most important influences, perhaps the most important, in one of the greatest eras in Red wings history. He was the right man at the right time.

But he just isn't made for this era. He had a few good years in the salary cap era but that was 90% due to Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg, relics from that earlier, dominant era. His drafting in the cap era has not been great, granted he traded away a lot of 1sts. But after Kronwall he basically didn't draft another top player for a decade until Larkin came along. His free agent signings and trades were atrocious in the worst instances, and sad vegetable farts in the best instances. Uninspired and conservative to a fault, and the team on the ice reflected that. The years after Lidstrom retired until Holland's departure were the worst in a long time. An excuse is often made for him that he was ordered to continue the playoff streak for Mike Ilitch's last years. That is a relevant point to raise, but I don't find it sufficient to excuse the state the team ended up in. He may have been ordered to consider the playoff streak a priority, but I really doubt he was micromanaged in any meaningful way. He was just given a priority and the execution is up to him. So the hanging onto vets well past their useful years, the handcuffing of the team with terrible long term contracts, and the few draft picks amounting to difference-makers are all 100% on Holland.

He had a legendary decade and a half as GM, and his place in the HOF is warranted. But the game has passed him by and he should just retire before he tarnishes his image more. There is a small chance he is able to get a Cup with Edmonton, he has the best player in the game and another top 3-5 player in the league on his roster. But the results so far don't look promising. And his tenure in Edmonton is looking like a continuation of 2011-2018 Holland and that doesn't bode well for the Oilers. I shudder to imagine an alternate reality where Yzerman never left Tampa and Holland is still the GM in Detroit today.

Good write-up. After what Holland accomplished in the pre-salary cap days, and through the 2008 Cup (in the first few years of the cap where its effects hadn't really set in yet), it would have been hard to believe what the following decade had in store in regards to his performance. Yes, he stepped into a powerhouse back in 1998, had infinite blank checks, and got lucky with the Dats and Hank picks. Still. Had you told me what the next 11 years looked like (and the past 3 in Edmonton), I'd have at least raised an eyebrow, if not laughed.

Isolate the past 14 years of performance, and Ken Holland has to be one of the worst GMs of all time, if only because of longevity of ineptitude.... the fact that if there are worse GMs, they certainly didn't last 14 years.

In the end, you state what is the simple truth. As a GM, Holland absolutely sucks within a capped league. Rock bottom. He only exists in the post-cap NHL because of his reputation from a long-dead era, and fellow incompetence from owners who choose to employ him.

It's too bad. I don't think he's a bad guy, and as a Wings fan it'd be nice to see someone so integral to Detroit's heyday be a success outside of it. But that's not Ken Holland.
 

golffuul

Registered User
Oct 24, 2011
4,923
2,784
Wow...Edmonton gives up 5 straight after being up 4-1. The meltdown on the Oilers forum is exceptional.

Does Holland fire Tippet, now? Does he go for the Nuclear Option (Babcock)? Does Nicholson step in and fire both Holland and Tippet?

I can't believe the Oilers are in the driver's seat to miss the playoffs. Just mind-boggling. I mean, I know they have no defense and no goaltending, but still.
 

Ricelund

̶W̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶
Apr 16, 2006
8,719
4,629
New York, NY
Wow...Edmonton gives up 5 straight after being up 4-1. The meltdown on the Oilers forum is exceptional.

Does Holland fire Tippet, now? Does he go for the Nuclear Option (Babcock)? Does Nicholson step in and fire both Holland and Tippet?

I can't believe the Oilers are in the driver's seat to miss the playoffs. Just mind-boggling. I mean, I know they have no defense and no goaltending, but still.
"We like our team."
 
  • Like
Reactions: golffuul
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 5
    Staked: $2,752.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $354.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $340.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $365.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $15.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad