NHL goalies better vs high shot volumes

AfroThunder396

[citation needed]
Jan 8, 2006
39,133
23,206
Miami, FL
Right - there are many factors which influence save percentage at the team level.

But you stated that a "high volume of shots artificially inflates SV% denominator and gives the illusion of great play which may or may not be true."

If that's the case, then there should be a trade-off between shot quality allowed and shot quantity allowed, which would manifest in the form of a positive relationship between save percentage and shot volume against at the team level.

But that doesn't seem to be the case.

When you look at the league as a whole, of course not. There's too much parody and variation. Not every coach subscribes to that philosophy. If a few teams are willing to sacrifice shot quantity to control shot quality it would be unlikely to affect the wholesale results of a 30 team league, especially since there are teams likely employing the exact opposite philosophy.

But in some specific cases - yes, I think that's true.

Even if that's so - and it certainly doesn't seem to be in the case of Florida - citing specific examples doesn't establish anything in the absence of any relationship in the general population.

For example, I could just as easily cite examples of teams that excelled at both shot prevention and save percentage, like the 2011-12 St.Louis Blues, the 2010-14 L.A. Kings, the 2003-06 Calgary Flames, the 1998-2004 Dallas Stars, and so on and so forth.

Which is exactly why you won't see any league-wide trends. Of course there are some goalies of true quality who post legitimately high save percentages due to superb play - but I'd submit there are also quite a few goalies who play at an unremarkable level, yet their save percentage is artificially inflated by extra shots of indeterminate quality. I'd also suggest that goaltenders have their best seasons in years where they face high volumes of shots, and not the other way around.

If you're asking me to provide a hard causation or league-wide supporting evidence, I can't do that at this time.

In the absence of any relationship in the general population, it may well be nothing more than a simple coincidence.

A goalie with ~750 games of ~.910% during the Dead Puck Era suddenly found a second wind at age 35 and became better at stopping pucks after his two Hall of Fame defensemen left the team? I don't buy it.

Isn't it more reasonable that 32 year old Brodeur and 35 year old Brodeur were playing at similar levels, and that the only difference was that one had his stats deflated due to artificial shot dilution? Brodeur was consistently facing 1600-1750 shots a year in the early 2000's, yet after the lockout he started consistently facing 2000-2100 shots a year and his save percentage rose accordingly. I'd say adding 300-400 saves a year did wonders to his save percentage, while his quality of play actually changed little.
 

Master_Of_Districts

Registered User
Apr 9, 2007
1,744
4
Black Ruthenia
When you look at the league as a whole, of course not. There's too much parody and variation. Not every coach subscribes to that philosophy. If a few teams are willing to sacrifice shot quantity to control shot quality it would be unlikely to affect the wholesale results of a 30 team league, especially since there are teams likely employing the exact opposite philosophy.

But in some specific cases - yes, I think that's true.



Which is exactly why you won't see any league-wide trends. Of course there are some goalies of true quality who post legitimately high save percentages due to superb play - but I'd submit there are also quite a few goalies who play at an unremarkable level, yet their save percentage is artificially inflated by extra shots of indeterminate quality. I'd also suggest that goaltenders have their best seasons in years where they face high volumes of shots, and not the other way around.

If you're asking me to provide a hard causation or league-wide supporting evidence, I can't do that at this time.

If that's the case, then it seems to me that shot volume is irrelevant and that we should be focusing on shot quality.

Which brings me back to my original point that shot quality appears to be largely independent of shot volume.

A goalie with ~750 games of ~.910% during the Dead Puck Era suddenly found a second wind at age 35 and became better at stopping pucks after his two Hall of Fame defensemen left the team? I don't buy it.

Isn't it more reasonable that 32 year old Brodeur and 35 year old Brodeur were playing at similar levels, and that the only difference was that one had his stats deflated due to artificial shot dilution? Brodeur was consistently facing 1600-1750 shots a year in the early 2000's, yet after the lockout he started consistently facing 2000-2100 shots a year and his save percentage rose accordingly. I'd say adding 300-400 saves a year did wonders to his save percentage, while his quality of play actually changed little.

Well - his pre-lockout (1991-2004) save percentage was 0.912, whereas he posted 0.917 in the five year stretch from 2005-10.

But the league average save percentage was slightly higher in the period from 2005-10 compared to 1991-2004.

In any event, if the shots Brodeur faced post-lockout were of lower average quality than the shots he faced pre-lockout, then that strikes me as a shot quality issue.

There's no reason to ascribe the effect to shot quantity when virtually all of the evidence suggests that shot quantity is orthogonal to shot quality.
 
Last edited:

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Factors

^^^Consider the rule changes and their impact. Post minor penalty faceoff, introduction of the trapizoid limiting goalie mobility and puckhandling, no-change icing, etc. All impact quantity not necessarily quality.
 

Jester9881

Registered User
May 16, 2006
14,350
3,460
Long Island NY
In theory, I understand the premise of the idea that more shots = higher save percentage. I have a hard time believing this is true in practice though.

If true, then wouldn't it be beneficial for a team with sub par goaltending to slacken up on the back end and allow more shots on net? I don't know, it seems to fly in the face of conventional thinking.

I think it's safe to say that more shots on goal, equate to more chances the puck is going to get through the goaltender. More shots, should also mean more chances of rebounds. More shots should also bring with it a greater chance that there were more high quality shots taken.

Unless you're logging every single shot taken and giving it a grade, I don't see how any of this can be quantified.
 

chico_hawk

Registered User
Jun 23, 2007
259
0
twitter.com
The generalization I took from this article is that high shot counts only mean something if there is enough high quality shots among them....not every Corsi is created equal, and the basic measurement/conclusion that teams that possess the puck more do better is hardly revealing.

The comparison of where shots were taken from for the <20 vs >40 groups suggested that more shots in the "lighter workload" were taken from the slot area than the "heavier workload" which appears to call into question the meaningfulness of basic Corsi.

I think most good teams attempt to create good scoring chances rather than simply fire as many shots on net, hoping enough go in....yet simple Corsi says more shots is "better"....

Ultimately I think there is a trade-off in terms of where teams focus their efforts to try to win - some teams focus on offense more (I'd put Chicago in this category), some on defense first (LA Kings), some try to have a balance (Boston & maybe St. Louis).

If your focus is on defense & getting into shooting lanes & you block a lot of shots &/or force teams to shoot wide to avoid getting shots blocked &/or you force teams to shoot from the perimeter by clogging the slot, etc. ...and you have a good goaltender to stop the ones that do get thru, your corsi may look bad, but you've effectively limited the potential damage.

I would think that a lower than average Corsi but an average or higher than average Fenwick score would be indicative of a team successfully using that defending strategy.

At the other end, you may not take a lot of shots, because your focus is to first create good chances from prime scoring areas before shooting.... that would yield a lower than average corsi, but your shooting percentage should be above average...

Based on my observation, particularly of the Blackhawks (being the team I follow most closely), they play a puck possession game with a focus on offense - their team defending while generally good, often is lacking & they (too often) give up good scoring chances....their corsi may be great, but they are often giving up goals on very few but very good chances...the phenomena described in the article...

I think it would be better if they focused more effort on defending better & on creating perhaps fewer but more dangerous scoring chances...
 
Last edited:

charlie1

It's all McDonald's
Dec 7, 2013
3,132
0
Quick analysis I just did of season Save % vs season SA/60 at 5v5 for all goalies with at least 1000 minutes played in a season in 2010 - 2014.

This confirms the earlier conclusion of this thread that SA/60 has no real effect on Sv% as the relationship is not significant even with this high number of data points.

Rplot.jpeg


R code:
Code:
library(ggplot2)

dat <- 
  read.csv("../../Downloads/war-on-ice-goalie-2015-09-06 18-51-55.csv")

ggplot(data = dat, 
       aes(x=SA60, y=Sv.)) +
  stat_smooth(method = "lm", se = F) +
  geom_text(aes(label = paste(Name, season))) +
  xlab("SA/60") + ylab("Save %")

summary( lm(Sv. ~ SA60, data = dat) )

data from http://war-on-ice.com/goalietable.h...layoffs=All&start1=2010-10-01&end1=2015-09-06
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
54,026
31,219
You would think so, but again, there are some other factors involved. Is the quality of shots scaling accurately with the quantity of shots? Some coaches will choose to give the other team high shot volumes because they're confident they will be low percentage shots from the outside. Other teams have killer defensive zone coverage, but suck in transition, where shot quality is inherently higher. Some teams have excellent shot quality AND shot quantity control. If you looked at the league as a whole, I'd be willing to bet that it averages out to little to no reaction, however on a case-by-case basis we'd certainly see trends emerge.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that some teams like Florida and Phoenix consistently see different goaltenders produce sparkling save percentages year after year. I also don't think it's a coincidence that a guy like Marty Brodeur, who had elite shot prevention in front of him his whole career, saw his save percentage skyrocket immediately after the '05 lockout when Stevens and Niedermayer left and the league began emphasizing offense.

Anecdotal, but with enough effort I'm confident we'd see some pretty clear trends among the statistical white noise.


Immediately after the Lockout he posted a .911 Sv%, 6% lower that the year before the lockout.

His best sv% was back in 96/97 when Stevens, Niedermayer and Holik were all there under the Jaques Lemaire stiffing system with a .927%.

I think the post lockout surge was nothing more that randomness of a goalies career.
 
Mar 31, 2005
1,684
13
East Coast
This makes sense to me for 2 reasons:
1) More shots = easier to focus.
2) A good chunk of goals are essentially random event that are not a function of goalie ability at all. Certainly not related to the number of shots before or after that. So a high number of shots 'cushions' the save % against crappy bounces
 

Micklebot

Moderator
Apr 27, 2010
54,026
31,219
This makes sense to me for 2 reasons:
1) More shots = easier to focus.
2) A good chunk of goals are essentially random event that are not a function of goalie ability at all. Certainly not related to the number of shots before or after that. So a high number of shots 'cushions' the save % against crappy bounces

Does this point not assume then that there are more crappy bounces than lucky ones?

It would also disapear as the sample increases (ie muli season data).

As to point one, fatigue is a real thing, both mental and physical. I imagine a ton of shots would be more physically strenuous with the goalie being required to get up and down far more frequently than in a low shot environment.
 

Doctor No

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
9,250
3,971
hockeygoalies.org
I still think that it's an issue of shot quality - at a high level, my hypothesis is that "bad team" goaltenders get more rebounds (as a percentage of shots) and that "good team" goaltenders get more breakaways/odd-man rushes (as a percentage of shots).

As for which outweighs the other, the data seem to suggest that (other than score effects) it's roughly equal, although clearly more work needs to be done.
 

JackSlater

Registered User
Apr 27, 2010
18,157
12,851
It makes sense intuitively that goaltenders would at least have a higher save percentage (though maybe not be "better") against a higher shot volume. Blocked shots for instance tend to be perimeter shots most often, and those shots are usually easier for the goaltender to save. If the goaltender loses his chance to make more routine saves but still has to face top level scoring chances (which are often unblockable) then save percentage will likely decrease somewhat.
 
Mar 31, 2005
1,684
13
East Coast
Does this point not assume then that there are more crappy bounces than lucky ones?

It would also disapear as the sample increases (ie muli season data).

As to point one, fatigue is a real thing, both mental and physical. I imagine a ton of shots would be more physically strenuous with the goalie being required to get up and down far more frequently than in a low shot environment.

Back when I was overly-academic and tried to explain goaltending in terms of game theory (without hard data, which was the style at the time) I mused about goals being random events (compared to saves). Goals, through lucky or crappy bounces, are less correlated to the number shots than saves where 'skill' (or size) is more involved. Goalies facing fewer shots would have a more difficult time 'covering up' the random/lucky/crappy goals unless they had something that differentiated them (through a combination of style and athleticism).

Here's an little excerpt. I wouldn't read it if I were you (its boring) but I was basically suggesting goaltenders who more aggressive/unconventional (Thomas/Brodeur) or perfect (Price), breaking the mold of 'big, butterfly goaltender' are ideal (Canadian goaltending had been **** at the time of this writing because of this prototype IMO). Shots against don't matter as much as the ability to make saves others wouldn't or couldn't make - because their game is differentiated from their peers somehow.

The Possibility of the Extreme—The Black Swan Save

If contrarians exceed the average, it is important to understand how they can do it with remarkable consistency. I believe their unconventional style and willingness to react to shots leaves them better prepared to handle the possibility of the statistically unique shot—which I will call a ‘Black Swan’ opportunity.§ They can always use the butterfly tactic in situations that call for it, while the butterfly-reliant goaltenders struggle to improvise like contrarians. The ‘reaction’ strategy leaves them free to make the unconventional saves necessary to prevent Black Swans from becoming goals.

The position relies on instinct and split second decisions. Reactions and responses to defined situations are drilled into goalies from an increasingly young age. Long before these goaltenders are capable of playing in the NHL, they have generally mastered technical responses to certain, finite situations. Goaltenders may be trained very well to react predictably in trained circumstances, but this leaves the goaltender susceptible to the extreme—breeding mediocrity. In this case, the extreme or Black Swan shot, is the result of 10 position players on the ice, moving at speeds up to 30 miles per hour, chasing an object that can move close to 100 miles per hour. Despite the simple objective and the definitive results of the goaltending position, every shot against them has the potential to create an infinite amount of complexities and permutations. A one-dimensional approach—where the goaltender determines they are better off ‘playing the percentages’—to the position offers the goaltender the opportunity to make a large number of saves, but it does not prepare the goaltender to react favorably to a Black Swan. The problem, then, is not maintaining a predictable level of performance—making the saves ‘you should make’—it is the ability to adjust to the unpredictable and the extreme in order to make a critical save. This is accomplished by reacting to shots a healthy percent of the time.

The real objective of the goaltender is to give up fewer goals than the opposing goaltender. In a low scoring game such as hockey, it is likely one goal against will determine the outcome of any given game. Passively leaving the outcome up to chance is a mistake in my opinion. Aggressiveness and assertiveness are competitive qualities that are compromised by a predominantly butterfly style. By dropping in the butterfly the goaltender is surrendering to whatever unlikely or unlucky shot that may occur. A great play, a seeing-eye shot, or unlikely bounce—the ‘unlikely, undrilled’ occurrences that have the potential to win or lose games—happen randomly. The goaltender must be aggressive and decisive in order to adjust to these situations. These are the shots that cannot be replicated in repetitive drills; they require the creativity and instinctual reaction of an instinctual contrarian.

Goaltending—A Lesson in Randomness

The frequency of the Black Swan shot or goal against is erratic. They can happen at anytime. There is little correlation between shots against and goals against on a game-by-game basis. If we assume the amount of Black Swan’s a goaltender faces is roughly proportional to the amount of goals given up— generally the more improbable shots faced, the more goals against—we counter-intuitively observe that the ‘Black Swans’ and the goals they caused occur randomly in a hockey game, largely independent of the number of shots against the goaltender. Taking the 10 busiest goaltenders of the 2010-2011 season, we see that their save percentage generally goes up as they receive more shots against. It does not matter whether the team gives up 20 shots or 40 shots, the random Black Swan occurrences that result in goals will happen just as frequently, regardless of the shots against. In outings where those goaltenders faced more than 40 shots, the average save percentage and shots against were 94.63% and 43.51, respectively. This implies these goaltenders gave up, on average, 2.33 goals per game when facing more than 40 shots.† When these same goaltenders faced less than 20 shots, their save percentage was a paltry 82.17% on an average of 14.85 shots. This implies 2.64 goals against per outing where the goaltender faced less than 20 shots.§ Counter-intuitively they fared worse while facing less than half of the shots.



The frequency of the ‘Black Swan’ occurrences that led to goals appear to be largely independent of shots on goal. ‘Playing the percentages’ leaves every goaltender hopelessly exposed to random chance throughout the game. Goaltenders in the world’s best league do no better in absolute terms when they face 20 shots than 40 shots. They are the same goaltenders, they just fall victim to circumstance and luck.

Simply ‘playing the percentages,’ with an emphasis on blocking from the butterfly, leaves the goaltenders fate up to pure chance. No goaltender can attempt to consistently out-perform their peers by playing the percentages—at least, not with certainty. Hoping to block 90% of the net while relying on your team to limit quality opportunities will result in mediocrity. The Black Swan events that lead to goals occur randomly and just as frequently facing 15 shots as 50 shots. This has manifested itself in ‘average’ goaltenders’ performances fluctuating unpredictably from game to game and from season to season. In a game where random luck is prevalent, employing a strategy that struggles to adjust to the complexities of a game as dynamic as hockey will result in erratic and unexplainable outcomes.
 
Last edited:

Doctor No

Registered User
Oct 26, 2005
9,250
3,971
hockeygoalies.org
When I teach goalies, I *never* teach them to be a "butterfly goalie", or a "standup goalie", or any other "type" of goalie. My feelings are that if you're a goalie, and you think of yourself as a "butterfly goalie", you're going to use the butterfly save technique in situations where it's not called for.

My opinion is that the "butterfly" should be a save option, chosen once the shot opportunity is known, and not something chosen in advance by declaring a style.

As a result, you can typically spot "my" goaltenders because they're the ones who incorporate things like the two-pad stack, or certain Hasekian movements.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hockey Outsider
Mar 31, 2005
1,684
13
East Coast
When I teach goalies, I *never* teach them to be a "butterfly goalie", or a "standup goalie", or any other "type" of goalie. My feelings are that if you're a goalie, and you think of yourself as a "butterfly goalie", you're going to use the butterfly save technique in situations where it's not called for.

My opinion is that the "butterfly" should be a save option, chosen once the shot opportunity is known, and not something chosen in advance by declaring a style.

As a result, you can typically spot "my" goaltenders because they're the ones who incorporate things like the two-pad stack, or certain Hasekian movements.

Which is what you should be doing. Most minor and junior hockey coaches and junior and professional scouts in the last ~20 years have grabbed onto the ''butterfly style' and the 'bigger, the better' narratives out of convenience. This covers their ass because goalies will 'make the save they should' and never really look bad, only helpless to circumstance.

But goalies should be trained to 'make the save others can't make.' That's what will win more games (having an average save maker, by definition won't help you in a goal scoring contest), since manygoals are on plays that require some sort of alternative save selection to prevent them. The bigger the arsenal, the more instinctive & athletic the better.

Back to the point of the thread, dangerous plays/potential goals against (IMO) are often shot quantity agnostic. Successful goalies need to worry move about making that 'difference making save' rather than 35 saves. Brodeur had low shot totals most of his career, and a non-elite save % because of it, but because he played street-hockey and he made plays (and gave up goals, but it was a positive trade-off) other goalies couldn't. He won more than anybody because of it.
 
Mar 31, 2005
1,684
13
East Coast
Here's where we disagree - Brodeur won more than anybody primarily because he was a top goaltender with generational durability on a team that gave him many opportunities for wins.

I subscribed to the 'Brodeur is a fraud' logic for quite sometime when I thought save % was the end-all be-all. But he made it tough to doubt him simply because of his ability to win for so long.

But to your point, we agree, his success could have been replicated by a handful of his peers on those NJD teams. I should have mentioned his winning proficiency rather than absolute wins. BUT, his durability/longevity IMO was aided by his style play due to 1) less torque on the hips and 2) he was unpredictable and created challenges for shooters no other goalie did (Hasek, my favorite, had a whole other bag of tricks). I thought he was one of the best at out-smarting shooters. Judged by win totals or win % Brodeur is one of the best ever and I think he gets underrated due to his team and save %. But he made a difference in a lot of games due to his unorthodox nature because of the general nature of goals.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

Guilty of Being Right
Mar 1, 2008
18,243
1,847
Upstate NY
Brodeur posting his second and third best save% seasons without Stevens certainly gives a bit of credence to the fact that the Devils' shot suppression deflated that stat somewhat.
 

MoonDragn

Registered User
Mar 28, 2007
9,527
45
Maryland
The problem with evaluating Brodeur is that they created a team defense system based on his puck handling ability.

Would his teams have won as much as they have with a different goalie? Maybe, but they would have had to change the system.

A point could be made that Schneider won less than Brodeur in the year they shared together was the fact that the system they played favored Brodeur, and not so favorable to Schneider who can't play a puck to save his life.

The Devils changed systems after Brodeur left, and Schneider did much better.

The shot suppression of the Devil's teams was a side effect of a very effective defense system, it involved not just the defensemen and forwards, but the puck handling ability of a very talented goaltender.

Because of the counter-attack nature of the Devil's system, it relied on quick puck transitions back up the ice and out of the zone. This is where Brodeur shined and he in fact did contribute to his team's offense.

So I think Brodeur would be a special case in terms of statistics. One cannot base him on average stats, because he was anything but average.
 

Calirose

Registered User
Mar 31, 2012
653
5
6ix
cool. i would say quick tends to do better on more shots.

would be cool to control for trailing teams, who presumably will take more desperate shots

always saw this anecdotally with quick.
 

Poogs

Registered User
Dec 22, 2015
19
0
I only skimmed the thread so I apoligize if someone said this already, but cant this be pretty easily explained by scoring effects? If a team is ahead, they typically face more, poor quality shots. So if I goalie faces 40 shots in a win, id bet that the last 10 or 15 shots or so were lower than average quality shots.
 

HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
21,210
11,780
NHL goalies better vs high shot volumes
by CHRIS BOYLE MARCH 25, 2014, 12:03 PM
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-goalies-better-with-high-shot-volumes/

Score effects, as usual, could be a confounding factor. The lower your sv%, the more likely the other team is already winning by a few goals and doesn't need to shoot as much anymore.

I only skimmed the thread so I apoligize if someone said this already, but cant this be pretty easily explained by scoring effects? If a team is ahead, they typically face more, poor quality shots. So if I goalie faces 40 shots in a win, id bet that the last 10 or 15 shots or so were lower than average quality shots.

Score Effects for sure.
Too bad the original article is closed.
It needs a few comments to refute the erroneous assumptions.
 

SladeWilson23

I keep my promises.
Sponsor
Nov 3, 2014
26,735
3,220
New Jersey

Feed Me A Stray Cat

Registered User
Mar 27, 2005
14,847
144
Boston, MA
Any discussion of Brodeur needs to include New Jersey's shot counter. I believe he/she got a little more liberal in awarding shots as the post lockout years went on, but I haven't ran the numbers. New Jersey's shot counter was very conservative in awarding shots in the pre-lockout years, which artificially suppressed Brodeur's save percentage.
 

SladeWilson23

I keep my promises.
Sponsor
Nov 3, 2014
26,735
3,220
New Jersey
Any discussion of Brodeur needs to include New Jersey's shot counter. I believe he/she got a little more liberal in awarding shots as the post lockout years went on, but I haven't ran the numbers. New Jersey's shot counter was very conservative in awarding shots in the pre-lockout years, which artificially suppressed Brodeur's save percentage.

And I know Florida notoriously over counted shots.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

  • USA vs Sweden
    USA vs Sweden
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $1,217.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Finland vs Czechia
    Finland vs Czechia
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $400.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Augsburg vs VfB Stuttgart
    Augsburg vs VfB Stuttgart
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $16,000.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Frosinone vs Inter Milan
    Frosinone vs Inter Milan
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $150.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Alavés vs Girona
    Alavés vs Girona
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $22.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad