Speculation: NHL draft - 2014 NHL Draft - Philadelphia - June 27-28, 2014

[madinsomniac]

wonder what the highest pick we could get for the rights to nisky?

 

[Jules Winnfield]

wonder what the highest pick we could get for the rights to nisky?

Probably a 2nd but 3rd more likely.

 

[madinsomniac]

Probably a 2nd but 3rd more likely.

I think we could get a 2nd... we got one for TK last year...

 

[Valarukar]

I think we could get a 2nd... we got one for TK last year...

He was an rfa not a ufa, so not comparable. I think 3rd is the highest, but more likely a 4th.

 

[gdsmack267]

I think we could get a 2nd... we got one for TK last year...

RFA value >>>> UFA value

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

First off, scouts do go to local amateur games, and they definitely went to games when Saad played for the Hornets. Being that they in fact had seen him play and develop, they should know exactly how he plays the game when healthy. What they failed to do was to properly identify or give enough weight to the time period in his draft year when he played through injury and underperformed (or "wasn't trying", as it was spun).

I don't know where you got the impression that I thought they didn't.

Where you and I differ is that I don't believe being a local product should come with any special consideration.

That was where the Pens scouts, having seen much more of his amateur games than any other organization, should have had better judgment, instead of relying on whatever handful (or less) games they scouted during his first season at Saginaw.

Even if this were true (did you do a head count at every game?), it doesn't mean the Pens shouldn't have had reservations based on Saad's performance, coach's justification or not. The rationale for Grigorenko's poor performance as the year went on was mono. Turns out that mono or not, he's still disappointing.

This is exactly why you need to talk to coaches. Not sure how many games you think the scouts actually watch, but it is only a small sample of a player's season, and is only one aspect of their job. If the scouts see something that doesn't match up with what they've seen in the past, then they will absolutely talk to coaches, trainers, players, etc. to ask why a player wasn't making strong cuts, avoiding contact on their left side, slower acceleration, etc. Saad should have been a gem that the Pens had the inside track on from day 1. How did the scouts fare on Morrow again?

You're arguing against statements I've never made.

Talking to coaches is one thing. Letting it override on-ice performance when other prospects had no issues on that front is something else entirely. Again, we're not simply looking for reasons not to pick local guys. That is an absurd de facto stance.

Every team in the league had access to Saad's performances and coaches. Every team passed on him. The Pens are no more culpable for passing over a prospect from their area than any other prospect. That's the point of casting a wide net and trying to remain objective. We'll sometimes miss out on some good local talent, as every single team in the NHL does. Oh well.

Do you think the Leafs brass gets raked over the coals every time they miss out on a Toronto area talent? The Leafs picked that loser Jamie Devane one pick before Toronto native Reilly Smith in 2009. What idiots.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I agree with this completely. The Penguins failed miserably for being the only team that didn't want Saad in the first round. They should have known he was going to be good because he's from Pittsburgh and stuff. Oh, and the opinion of the player's coach is far more important than such trifles as his performance in his draft year. It's also a well-established fact that hindsight is 20-20. Therefore, if the Penguins scouting staff was remotely competent, they'd draft based on hindsight. Ahead of time. Or something.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Though he's wrong about the one part he has a great point. Pittsburgh has been developing some great talent recently. If we aren't doing a good job scouting our own backyard with some of these prospects and getting a good read on them, how the hell are we going to do well with scouting all over the world? A lot of these kids get face time with the Pens due to all the connections to Pittsburgh Elite, etc.

Kinda makes you wonder if Shero pulled out Redline or McKenzie's draft guide, said give me the top 5 defensemen available, and then blindly threw a dart at the board and said "I'll take that one."

 

[clefty]

Funny thing about Saad - not only did every team pass on him, some teams passed on him twice. Including Chicago.

It's easy to take gambles when you have the luxury of 3 picks in the top 45.

 

[Penguinzilla*]

Funny thing about Saad - not only did every team pass on him, some teams passed on him twice. Including Chicago.

It's easy to take gambles when you have the luxury of 3 picks in the top 45.

Saad but true

 

[Darth Vitale]

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Though he's wrong about the one part he has a great point. Pittsburgh has been developing some great talent recently. If we aren't doing a good job scouting our own backyard with some of these prospects and getting a good read on them, how the hell are we going to do well with scouting all over the world? A lot of these kids get face time with the Pens due to all the connections to Pittsburgh Elite, etc.

Kinda makes you wonder if Shero pulled out Redline or McKenzie's draft guide, said give me the top 5 defensemen available, and then blindly threw a dart at the board and said "I'll take that one."

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Missing out on a local talent has absolutely no bearing on their scouting in general.

We've done pretty well when it comes to drafting defensemen, so if the Pens draft team selected them using darts, they must have been on a real lucky streak.

Funny thing about Saad - not only did every team pass on him, some teams passed on him twice. Including Chicago.

It's easy to take gambles when you have the luxury of 3 picks in the top 45.

Bingo.

The Hawks had even more chips to play with than that though. Saad was their 4th pick in 2011, and none of those picked before him are any further along than Morrow.

 

[Captain Hook]

You also have to consider that even though kids like Saad and Gibson may have been born here they leave to play for the national development teams and or junior etc. They aren't actually right in Pittsburgh to scout all the time. We don't have much of an advantage when it comes to scouting them in that regard.

 

[clefty]

The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise. Missing out on a local talent has absolutely no bearing on their scouting in general.

We've done pretty well when it comes to drafting defensemen, so if the Pens draft team selected them using darts, they must have been on a real lucky streak.



Bingo.

The Hawks had even more chips to play with than that though. Saad was their 4th pick in 2011, and none of those picked before him are any further along than Morrow.

Huh, forgot about Phillip Danault.

So, more accurately, 29 teams passed on Saad once, a bunch passed twice and one passed three times. And that was Chicago. San Jose were the only team who didn't get a chance from a quick, none-to-thorough glance.

You also have to consider that even though kids like Saad and Gibson may have been born here they leave to play for the national development teams and or junior etc. They aren't actually right in Pittsburgh to scout all the time. We don't have much of an advantage when it comes to scouting them in that regard.

Also correct, the USNTDP is in Michigan. Ann Arbor, I think, and Gibson left for there when he was 15 or 16. So what the hell, Detroit? Why isn't anyone on their case?

Because that would be dumb.

Just because you don't draft someone it doesn't mean you didn't scout them - or even that you don't like them. It worries me that I feel the need to point that out.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I will say again. I remember that draft well and the consternation was NOT for passing Saad. It was for passing a forward for a defenseman yet again. That Saad was a local who was rated very highly earlier in the year and fell was merely icing on the cake. But if he were a defenseman no one would have cared if the Pens had passed on him, local kid or not.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You also have to consider that even though kids like Saad and Gibson may have been born here they leave to play for the national development teams and or junior etc. They aren't actually right in Pittsburgh to scout all the time. We don't have much of an advantage when it comes to scouting them in that regard.

Huh, forgot about Phillip Danault.

So, more accurately, 29 teams passed on Saad once, a bunch passed twice and one passed three times. And that was Chicago. San Jose were the only team who didn't get a chance from a quick, none-to-thorough glance.


Also correct, the USNTDP is in Michigan. Ann Arbor, I think, and Gibson left for there when he was 15 or 16. So what the hell, Detroit? Why isn't anyone on their case?

Because that would be dumb.

Just because you don't draft someone it doesn't mean you didn't scout them - or even that you don't like them. It worries me that I feel the need to point that out.

Seems like something that shouldn't need explaining, doesn't it?

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

I think we could get a 2nd... we got one for TK last year...

A second is the best we could do and that's if the team trading for him agrees on a deal with Nisky. For his rights probably a 3rd or 4th

TK was a RFA, not the same, team can always go to arbitration and settle after.

 

[#1GuinFan]

A second is the best we could do and that's if the team trading for him agrees on a deal with Nisky. For his rights probably a 3rd or 4th

TK was a RFA, not the same, team can always go to arbitration and settle after.

I agree with the rfa vs ufa argument here, but at the same time you have to consider the quality of the player, and Nisky is most definitely a better player - who appears even better when you consider the demand this ufa market will present for him in particular. So should the pens consider exploring moving his rights, they may well get a 2nd for him. But a 3rd *prior to a signing* seems most likely, hopefully an early 3rd

 

[stepdad gaary]

Funny thing about Saad - not only did every team pass on him, some teams passed on him twice. Including Chicago.

It's easy to take gambles when you have the luxury of 3 picks in the top 45.

Chicago passed on him 3 times

18th Overall: Mark McNeill
26th: Phillip Danault
36th: Adam Clendening
43rd: Brandon Saad

 

[Shady Machine]

Chicago passed on him 3 times

That's been established.

 

[stepdad gaary]

That's been established.

apologies. I need to read every post in every thread.

 

[Shady Machine]

apologies. I need to read every post in every thread.

apology accepted.

 

[stepdad gaary]

apology accepted.

have a good one

 

[Shady Machine]

have a good one

you as well, crazy redheaded friend.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I know that Maatta and Pouliot are likely out until Christmas. So what? For the Pens the regular season is virtually meaningless other than practicing the likely new system.

With that in mind though, would you consider trading Martin for a first in maybe the 15-17 range? We have a ton of talent with the kids ready to move up, and lots of depth defensively. Martin makes $5 million for one more year making him very attractive. We certainly are not going to extend him beyond this year. We should have done this with Niskanen but now will lose him for nothing.

I know Martin was our best defensemen, but adding another of those forwards would be awfully tempting.

Thoughts?