News Article: NHL considering two changes to draft lottery

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
78,708
40,472
Hamburg,NY
They're wrong, unless they reside around Lake Erie. We are cursed. There is no other explanation.

I don't understand why most assume we'll be the absolute worst again next season. It's very hard to do that, and there will probably be actual tanking competition too since McDavid/Eichel.


How about owners that are penny wise and pound foolish.

Regier rebuilt the roster and organization coming out of the bankruptcy and 04-05 lockout. We had an incredibly deep team and farm system. In 3 consecutive summers (2005, 2006 and 2007) decisions were made following the policy's of our ownership that destroyed what Regier had built. It left us with a shell of a team and a dry well of a farm system since we lost of lot of assets, valuable ones, for nothing.

Inept management/ownership has been our biggest enemy not being cursed.
 

dotcommunism

Moderator
Aug 16, 2007
5,182
3,348
It does smack of the Mickey Mouse-dom of a league that is consistently making up things as they go -- rules, infractions... drafting. Maybe the GM meetings involve throwing slips of paper into a hat and calling out what gets pulled out as a new rule. :biglaugh:

This is one of those accusations that frequently gets levelled against the NHL that, frankly, makes no sense to me. Pretty much every sports league regularly changes the rules, often in quite dramatic ways. I mean, in the NFL every single season there's significant changes. I'm not sure that how a "catch" is defined has been the same any two years. Even baseball, where they're very very reluctant to change things, has changed rules on home plate collisions, as well as significantly expanding the role of replays just this year

But frequent, and frankly oftentimes esoteric, rule changes are pretty par for the course with sports leagues. So why is it so bad when the NHL does it?
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,200
35,357
Rochester, NY
http://www.libertyballers.com/2014/...tanking-jabari-parker-andrew-wiggins-politics

Tanking--even if this is tanking, when the Sixers are still playing hard every night and evaluation potential role players for down the road instead of, say, sitting Paul Pierce with phantom injuries--is ugly, but it's the logical course of action. Any attempt to eliminate it, as Lowe points out in his article, either makes the original problem of inequality worse, or merely changes the point at which it becomes a good idea to make your team worse. NBA GMs are increasingly smart people, and they will respond to incentives. If anyone has a better idea, one that gives all 30 teams a chance to win a title without incentivizing occasional short-term ugliness or relying on individual teams acting suboptimally, I'm all ears.

This is an article about the Sixers rebuild, but it is a similar premise to what is going on with the Sabres.
 

MayDay

Registered User
Oct 21, 2005
12,661
1,146
Pleasantville, NY
This is one of those accusations that frequently gets levelled against the NHL that, frankly, makes no sense to me. Pretty much every sports league regularly changes the rules, often in quite dramatic ways. I mean, in the NFL every single season there's significant changes. I'm not sure that how a "catch" is defined has been the same any two years. Even baseball, where they're very very reluctant to change things, has changed rules on home plate collisions, as well as significantly expanding the role of replays just this year

But frequent, and frankly oftentimes esoteric, rule changes are pretty par for the course with sports leagues. So why is it so bad when the NHL does it?

It's not just that the NHL changes things (all leagues do, as you say), it's that they're constantly tinkering with the same damn things because the changes they make are not well thought out. They are constantly have tweak things to fix the unintended consequences and loopholes created the last time they changed them.

Changing the lottery system is one thing, but it looks farcical because they just changed it already a year ago. Stop with the constant tinkering.
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
78,708
40,472
Hamburg,NY
It's not just that the NHL changes things (all leagues do, as you say), it's that they're constantly tinkering with the same damn things because the changes they make are not well thought out. They are constantly have tweak things to fix the unintended consequences and loopholes created the last time they changed them.

Changing the lottery system is one thing, but it looks farcical because they just changed it already a year ago. Stop with the constant tinkering.

They said at the time last year they were going to change the odds. So whats happening now shouldn't surprise anyone.
 

omglolnub

Registered User
Jun 21, 2011
2,623
1
Los Angeles, CA
Anyone counting on Buffalo getting favored by a bunch of bouncing balls.....

We're Buffalo. We're cursed. We have to ice the worst team in the modern era just to get the #2 pick.

2005 draft. One of four teams with 3 ping pong balls...drafted 13th like they were a bubble team and not a lottery team. Never forget. :help:
 

omglolnub

Registered User
Jun 21, 2011
2,623
1
Los Angeles, CA
They said at the time last year they were going to change the odds. So whats happening now shouldn't surprise anyone.

I think he was referring to that rolling system for draft positioning or making 1-3 or 1-5 a lottery for the non playoff teams, not tinkering with the odds (which still sucks, just not -as- much). Could be wrong, though.
 

JLewyB

Registered User
May 6, 2013
3,917
1,641
Pegulaville
I think he was referring to that rolling system for draft positioning or making 1-3 or 1-5 a lottery for the non playoff teams, not tinkering with the odds (which still sucks, just not -as- much). Could be wrong, though.

the rolling system is to figure out the odds of the lottery per the article.
 

MayDay

Registered User
Oct 21, 2005
12,661
1,146
Pleasantville, NY
2005 draft. One of four teams with 3 ping pong balls...drafted 13th like they were a bubble team and not a lottery team. Never forget. :help:

Didn't work out too well for the other teams with three balls either.

The Rangers' lottery pick wound up being 16th overall, worse than ours, and that pick was traded away to Atlanta, who used it to select Alex Bourret. Bourret, like Zagrapan, never played an NHL game. Oh, and Atlanta doesn't even exist anymore. At least the Rangers got Mark Staal out of the pick they acquired, but their actual lottery pick that went to Atlanta turned out to be worthless.

Columbus also had three balls, and their pick wound up being 6th, which they used to select Gilbert Brule. An oft-injured player who played less than two seasons for Columbus before bouncing around and eventually retiring at age 27.
 

Jim Bob

RIP RJ
Feb 27, 2002
56,200
35,357
Rochester, NY
Didn't work out too well for the other teams with three balls either.

The Rangers' lottery pick wound up being 16th overall, worse than ours, and that pick was traded away to Atlanta, who used it to select Alex Bourret. Bourret, like Zagrapan, never played an NHL game. Oh, and Atlanta doesn't even exist anymore. At least the Rangers got Mark Staal out of the pick they acquired, but their actual lottery pick that went to Atlanta turned out to be worthless.

Columbus also had three balls, and their pick wound up being 6th, which they used to select Gilbert Brule. An oft-injured player who played less than two seasons for Columbus before bouncing around and eventually retiring at age 27.

2005 wasn't the greatest draft class after Crosby.

Price & Kopitar are the only other guys I would consider a "franchise guy" to come out of that draft in the first couple of rounds.

There were a lot of guys that have been traded at least once (Ryan @ 2 & JJ @ 3 amongst them) and a few other pretty good guys like Staal & Stastny.
 

Sabretooth

Registered User
May 14, 2013
3,104
646
Ohio
2005 draft. One of four teams with 3 ping pong balls...drafted 13th like they were a bubble team and not a lottery team. Never forget. :help:

marek zagrapan.

This isn't an example of being "unlucky" or "cursed". Its more an example of a poorly structured lotto. Looking back at that draft, here are the sabres odds of being selected for each pick in the draft up until they were selected at 13th.

1st: 6.25%
2nd: 6.67%
3rd: 6.98%
4th: 7.32%
5th: 7.69%
6th: 7.89%
7th: 8.57%
8th: 9.09%
9th: 9.68%
10th: 10.00%
11th: 10.34%
12th: 11.11%
13th: 11.54%

Teams that were selected 1st through 12th were certainly more lucky than the sabres, but the sabres were never unlucky for not being selected any earlier than 13th. In fact, I'd say being selected when there was only a 11.54% chance (3 out of 26 lotto balls) seems pretty darn lucky. The team that finishes 4th from last has nearly the same odds of winning the draft lottery this year (10.7%).

Be careful not to fall for the Gambler's Fallacy.
 

brian_griffin

"Eric Cartman?"
May 10, 2007
16,695
7,926
In the Panderverse
I am under the impression that you guys are confused by the situation. The rolling 5 years would not total a five year span of a particular team but instead would be a five year total of a specific position out of the playoffs.

Your interpretation is how I read it as well, in contrast with how I feel some posters are reading the proposal.

Correct: Lottery Odds for each DRAFT POSITION re-apportioned each year based on prior points earned at draft position, regardless of individual team finish in those prior 5 years.

Incorrect: Lottery Odds for each TEAM re-apportioned each year based on prior points or draft position of that team in those prior 5 years.

I calculate below in second column the odds using the proposed formula from the article for '08-'09 season through '12-13. Third column is actual odds used for 2013 draft. Fourth column is projected 2014 draft using the proposed formula in the article. My numbers don't match the article exactly, likely due to how I handled the non-playoff teams who were above 17th position in the standings (the exceptions they cite), but my numbers are very close.

# "new"2013 2013 "new"2014
17 0.6% 0.5% 0.7%
18 1.6% 0.8% 1.7%
19 2.1% 1.1% 2.1%
20 3.1% 1.5% 3.2%
21 4.4% 2.1% 4.3%
22 5.2% 2.7% 4.8%
23 6.1% 3.6% 6.0%
24 7.3% 4.7% 7.1%
25 8.2% 6.2% 7.9%
26 9.1% 8.1% 9.7%
27 9.8% 10.7% 10.1%
28 11.4% 14.2% 11.1%
29 13.3% 18.8% 12.9%
30 17.9% 25.0% 18.4%
100% 100% 100%

It is clear there are three big impacts on lottery odds:

1) HUGE IMPACT: how many draft positions will have lottery odds, i.e., traditional first pick only, top 3 picks, top 5 picks, and how those odds are re-set with each pick. We don't have a lot of insight as to how that may be done. It could be big.

2) HUGE IMPACT: how many picks a team can move up. My understanding is there is no limit on how many picks a team can move up. That actually hurts Buffalo's chances for the #1 pick, assuming they do indeed finish 30th. Under the 2012 and years-prior system a team could only move up 4 picks maximum, so the 30th team had 25% + 4.7% + 3.6% + etc... = 48% chance at first pick.

3) MINOR IMPACT: A proposed re-apportionment of lottery odds linked to cumulative standings will have a larger impact (in absolute terms) to the bottom 3 teams (compare the 3rd column to the 2nd and 4th) than the remaining teams. But I still feel the impact (if adopted) is smaller than #1 and #2 above, and I think the numbers above support my contention.

Back to the article, I think such a re-apportionment, as proposed in the article, will favor overt tanking even more by the bottom-most teams. Want to increase your odds from ~18% to closer to the historic 25%? Simply earn fewer points that year. Heck, it will turn tanking into not just a "race" for last place, but instead also a race for the fewest points. Moreover, each successive season will be diluted by fewer cumulative points earned, driving teams to earn even fewer points in future years to achieve the same draft odds as the previous-years 30th place team.

But, if multiple teams overtly tank in a given calendar year, their net effect will be to create a broader "tail" in the cumulative distribution, which will be somewhat "washed out" by the %-of-points-earned basis anyway - a scenario which is already addressed by the current odds-determined-by-place-order finish system.

I see no "anti-tank incentive" from the proposed re-apportionment of lottery odds in #3 above (the Friedman article).
 

Beerz

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
35,440
11,044
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/buster-olney/post/_/id/49/bud-selig-houston-astros-issue-tanking-mlb


Bud Selig says he has no problem with the Houston Astros' strategy, or their payroll level of $25 million. From Brian Smith's story in the Houston Chronicle:


"I do trust the organization," Selig said. "Look, every organization goes through certain phases. They have chosen the path with some very qualified people. And the only way you can really build a solid organization, a solid team, is through a very productive farm system. And I think they're doing it the right way. There's no question in my mind."

Selig referenced longtime St. Louis and Brooklyn front-office leader Branch Rickey as being his "all-time executive baseball hero." According to Selig, Rickey was adamant it took at least three years to even judge the initial stage of a rebuild. Selig also referenced the Atlanta Braves, offering a reminder that a team that made 14 consecutive playoff appearances from 1991-2005 -- a strike wiped out the 1994 postseason -- and won the 1995 World Series spent the latter half of the 1980s as one of the worst teams in pro sports.

"(The Astros are) getting good draft choices. They've drafted very well and wisely. And I think Houston fans have a lot to look forward to," Selig said. "If their rebuilding program is as good as I think it is and they think it is, they're going to create a lot more great memories."
 

MayDay

Registered User
Oct 21, 2005
12,661
1,146
Pleasantville, NY
Back to the article, I think such a re-apportionment, as proposed in the article, will favor overt tanking even more by the bottom-most teams. Want to increase your odds from ~18% to closer to the historic 25%? Simply earn fewer points that year. Heck, it will turn tanking into not just a "race" for last place, but instead also a race for the fewest points. Moreover, each successive season will be diluted by fewer cumulative points earned, driving teams to earn even fewer points in future years to achieve the same draft odds as the previous-years 30th place team.

This is what I think will happen to. It's going to backfire on the league in a big way.

You are creating an incentive for the worst teams to not only finish last, but actually increase their odds by getting fewer points. This will result in the worst teams being even worse. And after a few years of the worst teams being even more terrible, the lottery odds for the last place team will rise even higher based on the five-year rolling average, eliminating the disincentives the league had hoped to create by lowering the odds.

The end result of this is going to be a bigger gap in points between the best and the worst teams. Which is bad for the league.

The league comes up with these crazy systems without thinking through all the implications. It's ridiculous.
 

zbubble

Registered User
Jul 29, 2005
2,566
178
I don't understand why most assume we'll be the absolute worst again next season. It's very hard to do that, and there will probably be actual tanking competition too since McDavid/Eichel.

This team has 4 wins this year with a goalie not named Miller in net. 4.
 

Moskau

Registered User
Jun 30, 2004
19,978
4,743
WNY
This team has 4 wins this year with a goalie not named Miller in net. 4.
As crazy as it seems to say this team's draft position could hinge on what version of Tyler Ennis shows up in the first half of next season. This is now the 3rd year in a row where he's looked incredible to finish the year after being completely useless for the first 50%. If Hodgson get's an NHL caliber winger capable of scoring 20 goals it get's even harder to finish last. Replace Leino with any other player in the league and it gets even harder. Etc. Murray is going to have to get a few guys making $4 Million+ that can completely torpedo their line not named Ville Leino.
 

Derg12

Registered User
Mar 12, 2014
826
460
Blows my mind that people think Bettman has the say in decisions like this.

He's the pitch man - he's selling it to the board of governors. He's the guy at the top that can promote it of kick it to the curb.

Of course he has a say. He's the Commish, the face of the League itself. I don't know if Joe from the 1st floor cubicle at the NHL office in Toronto penned the plan or not, but the reality is, Bettman owns this even if his signature isn't on it.
 
Last edited:

Eram

Registered User
Jul 21, 2013
454
1
San Francisco, CA
I was pretty ticked at first reading this, but I see two big upsides:

- NYI pick. I dont think anyones pulled together an average win % over the past 5 seasons, but NYI gotta be near the bottom of the list. So even if they're a playoff team next year, they could have a 6-9 draft position before the lottery.

- Our picks after 2015. Say we get someone good next year. 15-16 will likely be another not so great year. But look forward another year to 16-17, and we'll BOTH be in the playoff hunt and in the play for the #1 pick. Who knows what kind of talent will be available then.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad