News Article: NHL.com: Inside look at Detroit Red Wings

[Heaton]

Only missing a true #1 defenseman. Tough hole to fill for sure, but hardly a long way to go.

The Wings just finished the season with their leading scorer barely amassing 50 points. The Wings have a long way to go before they're a contender again.

 

[Claypool]

The Wings just finished the season with their leading scorer barely amassing 50 points. The Wings have a long way to go before they're a contender again.

Well of course, when your powerplay was as bad as it was through the first 60 games scoring is obviously going be down. They still finished the seasons 11th in powerplay goals scored. Add a 50/60 point elite defenseman that can play 30 minutes a night and they probably finish in the top 3.

The Blackhawks, which finished 2nd in PP%, only scored four more 5-on-5 goals than the struggling Red Wings, and they had the league's MVP on it.

 

[BinCookin]

Well of course, when your powerplay was as bad as it was through the first 60 games scoring is obviously going be down. They still finished the seasons 11th in powerplay goals scored. Add a 50/60 point elite defenseman that can play 30 minutes a night and they probably finish in the top 3.

The Blackhawks, which finished 2nd in PP%, only scored four more 5-on-5 goals than the struggling Red Wings, and they had the league's MVP on it.

I am not sure how you are trying to make Detroit sound good...

But we just didn't score much last year....

We didn't score much in ALL situations.
PP, Even Strength etc etc.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

This team ain't good. 2016-2017 team is going to be a worse version of the 2015-2016 team.

 

[Bench]

I am not sure how you are trying to make Detroit sound good...

But we just didn't score much last year....

We didn't score much in ALL situations.
PP, Even Strength etc etc.

I'll never get the argument that "if you don't count the powerplay..."

Well, sure. Except powerplay goals win a ton of games. And thus are really important. And usually great powerplay teams have elite offensive talent that drives the scoring, not some magical 5v4 system designed by the coach.

The top powerplays like the Ducks, Hawks, Sharks, Stars, and Capitals. Those were the 5 best last year. And surprise... a few elite names in that group. Getzlaf, Perry, Kane, Thornton, Benn, Seguin, Ovechkin and other big names but the list was already big enough.

The Wings, unfortunately, don't have a guy like that right now. Once upon a time we could say Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom. But now.... uhhh... Yeah. I'm drawing a blank. Larkin, maybe, if he exceeds all our wildest dreams and becomes a top 10 scorer.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I'll never get the argument that "if you don't count the powerplay..."

Well, sure. Except powerplay goals win a ton of games. And thus are really important. And usually great powerplay teams have elite offensive talent that drives the scoring, not some magical 5v4 system designed by the coach.

The top powerplays like the Ducks, Hawks, Sharks, Stars, and Capitals. Those were the 5 best last year. And surprise... a few elite names in that group. Getzlaf, Perry, Kane, Thornton, Benn, Seguin, Ovechkin and other big names but the list was already big enough.

The Wings, unfortunately, don't have a guy like that right now. Once upon a time we could say Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom. But now.... uhhh... Yeah. I'm drawing a blank. Larkin, maybe, if he exceeds all our wildest dreams and becomes a top 10 scorer.

Generally, removing the power play from a player's numbers is meant to kind of normalize the statistics. It should be easier to score on the power play than ES.

Generally, if a player isn't elite (Nyquist, for one) and he scores 40 PP points and 15 ES points, those 55 points are generally less indicative of his future ability to keep up that pace.

Also, if you're having a disproportionate amount of your offensive success on the power play, you're relying on what is generally 8 minutes a game of which you might play half as a player.

It is wrong to completely discount PP points and goals because they are things that count and part of what make elite finishers elite, but when you try to compare players in different systems and on different teams, you generally want to limit the amount of randomness. PP is random because you never know when or if a penalty is going to be called.

 

[Ezekial]

Exactly, no one is saying PP points are worthless. It's a way to normalize players stats to compare them in similar situations. There's also guys who excel on the powerplay, that should be praised and valued - not taken away. But, when there's guys getting 3 PP mins a game compared to a guy even getting 2 it makes a huge impact on their projected point totals. Even taking an average number like 5 PPP/60, one minute on the PP more results in ~7-8 points on the season.

 

[haulinbass]

I think Holland signs a couple more vets that way Larkin can get through most of his prime developing in Grand Rapids. A couple more vets would also help ensure Tatar or Nyquist keep getting limited icetime, that way once they start losing a step by close to their 30's they will be ready to become top sixers once their place in Detroit is earned.

Maybe by the 2021-22 season we can start getting Mantha and AA into the lineup as 3rd liners. The last couple seasons before they retire we can toss them in the top six and see what we could have had.

There is just no room for "kids" in a lineup that is as serious as Detroit is about contending for the cup. Holland himself keeps preaching this but obviously noone here gets it.

I just don't see what is so hard about that for fans to understand. Look what happened after we lost Dan Cleary, our team fell apart. You have to have that veteran leadership. If you can make an entire team of veteran leaders then clearly that's the most logical thing to do.

If we traded forwards for a D the Wings would be forced to rely on young talented kids that can skate and play hockey. This isn't hockey, this is the NHL and there is no room for that here. Plus we already have 6 NHL defensemen.

What would you guys want to do bring in a D that can make passes and wants to play in the offensive zone all the time? That's not what the defensemen is intended for, if it was why would they call it that. If that was the case they would call them offensemen. Our D do a very good job putting in a ton of minutes in our D zone and defending. You guys complain because we give up a few goals and a couple guys make some mistakes.. But your not looking at the facts, look at how little goals they give up in perspective to the massive amount of minutes that Mrazek successfully defends.

 

[HIFE]

This team ain't good. 2016-2017 team is going to be a worse version of the 2015-2016 team.

I don't think that's guaranteed.

Blashill said he's committed to improving his methods, for example trying to keep specific lines together to develop chemistry. We hired better (more experienced) assistant coaches to aid him.

Larkin, Mrazek, AA, Mantha are a year older and stronger should provide more. Green will be more accustomed to responsibility put on his shoulders that I say he could not have been prepared for. Nielsen I think chose Detroit because he wants the challenge not overshadowed by Tavares. He has a chance to be the main man here.

Quincey and old man Richards are gone! This is the single greatest factor, removing dead weight. Beer league teams are sometimes better with 5 skaters than 3 lines and 2 D pairings of idiots mixed in. I wish our banishment included Ericsson, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Glendening, Oaf (oops I mean Ott), and Miller but whatever. Wings will make the PO's as usual even with the perpetual hangers on like Samuelsson, Quincey, and Weiss.

Without Datsyuk we will never be the same but I'm excited I think he's left the team his energy, the memory of his magic (I admit I am one of those weird psychics/palm-readers with a sign on their front lawn ). He's passed the torch as they say. We haven't missed the PO's since Lidstrom left...some are so elite they won't permit the team to fail that miserably for years, only after they've allowed their attention to move on!

Seriously this is a huge transition year I think the Red Wings will be jacked up. We could see a slew of injuries and several new players called up who impress, you never know. Zetterberg might have sent out the call- " guys the country-club days are over, we have to actually start trying". Excellent off-season training could give us a boost. Look at Calgary 2 years ago the only reason they had a winning season was their superior conditioning.

I strongly believe a pro team made up of all 2nd- 5th round picks could be champions, there must be cases of it in the NHL. With the highest discipline someone of average talent can go very far. A group of 30 point players each could surpass a team like San Jose who rely exclusively on their top 6. I'm not saying we have that personnel but it's a thought that I think Holland has been employing for seasons.

The reason we have sports is the interest in not knowing the outcome. There's always the slightest of chances. No one knew Gostisbhere would have the tremendous season he would have, or another rookie like Rust. The Wings could go on a min-rampage or fall flat on their faces there is no way to know for sure.

I'm not forecasting the DRW are contenders. But they could be improved over last season there are a lot of what-ifs. The Wings having a descent season isn't a good thing for those hoping for Holland's destruction and our failure, pushing us quicker toward an authentic rebuild. Fact is we'll probably be exactly in the upper middle of the pack again. I'd like to be a contender but I also can't bear the idea of losing to Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal, etc.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think Holland signs a couple more vets that way Larkin can get through most of his prime developing in Grand Rapids. A couple more vets would also help ensure Tatar or Nyquist keep getting limited icetime, that way once they start losing a step by close to their 30's they will be ready to become top sixers once their place in Detroit is earned.

Maybe by the 2021-22 season we can start getting Mantha and AA into the lineup as 3rd liners. The last couple seasons before they retire we can toss them in the top six and see what we could have had.

There is just no room for "kids" in a lineup that is as serious as Detroit is about contending for the cup. Holland himself keeps preaching this but obviously noone here gets it.

I just don't see what is so hard about that for fans to understand. Look what happened after we lost Dan Cleary, our team fell apart. You have to have that veteran leadership. If you can make an entire team of veteran leaders then clearly that's the most logical thing to do.

If we traded forwards for a D the Wings would be forced to rely on young talented kids that can skate and play hockey. This isn't hockey, this is the NHL and there is no room for that here. Plus we already have 6 NHL defensemen.

What would you guys want to do bring in a D that can make passes and wants to play in the offensive zone all the time? That's not what the defensemen is intended for, if it was why would they call it that. If that was the case they would call them offensemen. Our D do a very good job putting in a ton of minutes in our D zone and defending. You guys complain because we give up a few goals and a couple guys make some mistakes.. But your not looking at the facts, look at how little goals they give up in perspective to the massive amount of minutes that Mrazek successfully defends.

I know this is supposed to be a joke, but it's just not funny.

 

[Bench]

Generally, removing the power play from a player's numbers is meant to kind of normalize the statistics. It should be easier to score on the power play than ES.

All good stuff, but the post in reference was about teams, not individuals. It was the idea if the Wings just get a better power play, they will be fine with scoring.

My argument? Impossible without better players like the ones I listed. Elite scorers = elite power play = more goals = more wins.

So no, I don't think the Wings will be fine getting goals again. Looks like another year of struggle to me when I'm not sure if any one player can even top 55 points or if any defender can top 40.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

All good stuff, but the post in reference was about teams, not individuals. It was the idea if the Wings just get a better power play, they will be fine with scoring.

My argument? Impossible without better players like the ones I listed. Elite scorers = elite power play = more goals = more wins.

So no, I don't think the Wings will be fine getting goals again. Looks like another year of struggle to me when I'm not sure if any one player can even top 55 points or if any defender can top 40.

But the Wings won't be better if they just get a better power play for the same reason that an individual who thrives almost exclusively on the power play isn't better than a similar player who makes his hay on ES. They need to be better in all situations, not just the most advantageous ones. It is the same thing. If you're pinning your hopes on your PP, you damn well better have an offense like Michigan did this year or the 1980s Edmonton Oilers who can score on 50% of them.

The Wings will be fine getting goals when they get their players rolling on consistent lines. When they get Tatar closer to the 20 min a night that Zetterberg got and Z closer to Tatar's 14 a night.

They misused so many of their pieces last year by Blashill juggling lines and by him running Datsyuk and Zetterberg 20+ mins a night when it was clear that one or both were completely and totally gassed.

 

[Bench]

But the Wings won't be better if they just get a better power play for the same reason that an individual who thrives almost exclusively on the power play isn't better than a similar player who makes his hay on ES. They need to be better in all situations, not just the most advantageous ones. It is the same thing. If you're pinning your hopes on your PP, you damn well better have an offense like Michigan did this year or the 1980s Edmonton Oilers who can score on 50% of them.

Well, first off, if the Wings have a better powerplay, they will in fact be better. The only way they don't get better is if they score less goals at ES. I mean, that's just simple addition, no need for fancy statistics here. More goals = better. What am I missing here?

The entire point of the post by Claypool was that the Hawks had the #2 PP, but the Wings were close to them at ES. He surmised if the Wings just improve the PP, then boom, scoring is going to be fine. My rebuttal was simple: The Wings can't have a Hawks PP because they don't have Patrick Kane. And so scoring goals will continue to be a struggle.

Now I understand your point about equalizing players and playing time and how powerplays are random (although the opportunities do present themselves several times a game, making it something you absolutely SHOULD count on). But honestly, I don't agree with it.

Discarding powerplay time makes DeKeyser look as good as Suter. That's... not accurate. Not even close. But hey, that's ES! Completely ignore a massive part of the game where a guy literally quarterbacks the powerplay to help win games. If we remove all of that...

But why are we removing that? It's like saying if we remove touchdown passes over 50 yards, quarterback X isn't as good as quarterback Y. But why should that matter if quarterback X can consistently hit those passes to score? That's the powerplay. If you're making it work routinely, it's not some crapshoot. It's part of your game plan. And if you're really good at it, you force other teams to back off with their defensive play such as those holds and hooks.

It's good for comparing guys that maybe SHOULD be on the powerplay, but often it's used to compare guys who have proven to not be good enough on it. Like our boy Danny. He's just not good enough, so when we say his ES numbers stack up to Drew Doughty... so what? Good for him, I guess. But he can't move the puck or create offense anywhere near as good as Drew Doughty and the entire world knows that.

I like the comparisons for academic purposes, but in the real world, more powerplay production usually means you're winning more games.

The Sharks and Penguins hit over 23% on their run to the finals this year. The Wings hit 4%. It's something that might help when goals are hard to come by, you know?

 

[Claypool]

The entire point of the post by Claypool was that the Hawks had the #2 PP, but the Wings were close to them at ES. He surmised if the Wings just improve the PP, then boom, scoring is going to be fine. My rebuttal was simple: The Wings can't have a Hawks PP because they don't have Patrick Kane. And so scoring goals will continue to be a struggle.

Hawks scored 57 powerplay goals last season, the Red Wings scored 50. In total, the Hawks only scored 24 more goals than the Red Wings last season, and that's with Detroit's powerplay being dead last in the league for long stretches. My argument was that if the Red Wings had an elite, poweplay quarterback that could play 30 minutes a night (Karlsson) that the offense would be more than fine. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

And the Red Wings' powerplay scored 69 powerplay goals in 2014-15, the most in the league and more than any team this past season, including Dallas. That was without a Karlsson or Keith on the backend.

 

[Bench]

Hawks scored 57 powerplay goals last season, the Red Wings scored 50. In total, the Hawks only scored 24 more goals than the Red Wings last season, and that's with Detroit's powerplay being dead last in the league for long stretches. My argument was that if the Red Wings had an elite, poweplay quarterback that could play 30 minutes a night (Karlsson) that the offense would be more than fine. Not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

And the Red Wings' powerplay scored 69 powerplay goals in 2014-15, the most in the league and more than any team this past season, including Dallas. That was without a Karlsson or Keith on the backend.

Your argument boils down to adding an elite player at the most important position means they'll be better? Well, yeah.

And "only 24" goals? That's a huge difference. 24 goals gets you a lot of extra wins. Plus the Hawks defended better, too. So there's multiple areas to work on that an elite defender would certainly help with.

But man, that's asking a lot. You're like the football fan that says their team will be fine once they get an Aaron Rodgers throwing the ball.

 

[Claypool]

Your argument boils down to adding an elite player at the most important position means they'll be better? Well, yeah.

And "only 24" goals? That's a huge difference. 24 goals gets you a lot of extra wins. Plus the Hawks defended better, too. So there's multiple areas to work on that an elite defender would certainly help with.

But man, that's asking a lot. You're like the football fan that says their team will be fine once they get an Aaron Rodgers throwing the ball.

I was arguing that this team is one player away from being a real threat again. They don't have "a long way to go" such as Heaton suggested. Yes, it's a big hole to fill. The point still stands. It's one player. This team managed to score more powerplay goals the previous season with its leading scorer only having 66 points and having no elite defenseman on the blueline. They don't need a player scoring 106 points to have an elite powerplay.

 

[Heaton]

I was arguing that this team is one player away from being a real threat again. They don't have "a long way to go" such as Heaton suggested. Yes, it's a big hole to fill. The point still stands. It's one player. This team managed to score more powerplay goals the previous season with its leading scorer only having 66 points and having no elite defenseman on the blueline. They don't need a player scoring 106 points to have an elite powerplay.

The Wings haven't added an elite #1 defenseman since Lidstrom was drafted in the early 90's. This team has zero elite talent, period. So yes, they are a long ways away from contending again.

The Wings need a #1 center (not someone who might be a #1 center, but an actual #1 center) and a #1 defenseman.

Those are massive holes to fill. It's great to think the Wings are 'one piece away', but there's tons of team in the league who could say the same thing.

 

[Winger98]

Your argument boils down to adding an elite player at the most important position means they'll be better? Well, yeah.

And "only 24" goals? That's a huge difference. 24 goals gets you a lot of extra wins. Plus the Hawks defended better, too. So there's multiple areas to work on that an elite defender would certainly help with.

But man, that's asking a lot. You're like the football fan that says their team will be fine once they get an Aaron Rodgers throwing the ball.

And it's not just adding 24 goals and climbing the goals scored list of last year, it's adding the equivalent of 24 goals in comparison to what the rest of the league is doing. If we score 24 more goals, but the entire league sees scoring goal up by an average of 20 or so goals per team, then we're still in roughly the same spot. We're still getting outscored most nights.

And we really haven't been a good offensive team for awhile now. Last year we were 23rd in goals per game. Two years ago was a good year, we were tenth, but we were 16th the year before that, and 23rd the year before that. If I had to guess, I'd bet that we're in the second half of the league again this year.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I am not sure how you are trying to make Detroit sound good...

But we just didn't score much last year....

We didn't score much in ALL situations.
PP, Even Strength etc etc.

You also have to keep in mind we're in another dead puck era where scoring is dropping off. So saying we only had 10 fewer even strength goals than Chicago or only scored 8 more even strength goals than the worst team in the league isn't telling you much. Almost the entire league is geared toward making sure there is no open ice and nothing much happens.

 

[Bench]

And it's not just adding 24 goals and climbing the goals scored list of last year, it's adding the equivalent of 24 goals in comparison to what the rest of the league is doing. If we score 24 more goals, but the entire league sees scoring goal up by an average of 20 or so goals per team, then we're still in roughly the same spot. We're still getting outscored most nights.

And we really haven't been a good offensive team for awhile now. Last year we were 23rd in goals per game. Two years ago was a good year, we were tenth, but we were 16th the year before that, and 23rd the year before that. If I had to guess, I'd bet that we're in the second half of the league again this year.

Absolutely.

Goal scoring has been an issue for years. It's why when people listed their dream free agents or trades I always included a top 6 player that could score goals. This team is missing goal scoring threats on a nightly basis. That 10th year was on the back of a top powerplay that completely vanished in the playoffs. It's great to have a weapon like that but it needs to be consistent, which the Wings have not proven they can consistently be a top powerplay team since Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg were all considered top players at their positions.

The Wings leaned heavy on Lidstrom and Holmstrom as the bread and butter of their powerplay attack for the better part of a decade. Their departures and the aging of Zetterberg and Datsyuk created massive voids that haven't been filled.

Kronwall-Abdelkader has been the attempt, but it's a poor imitation. The knockoff watches you find on a folding table next to a restaurant dumpster. I think Mike Green still has some juice left in him, so hopefully he's running the powerplay next year. And it would be great to see speedsters like Larkin get the nod to use his dangerous feet to open more space in the zone transition and retrieving pucks to maintain possession.

If they do those things and Vanek finds some scoring mojo, things could break their way. But it's going to take more than letting Kronwall lob shots near Abdelkader and hoping for the best while our perimeter wingers watch rebounds get swatted away.

 

[Winger98]

Absolutely.

Goal scoring has been an issue for years. It's why when people listed their dream free agents or trades I always included a top 6 player that could score goals. This team is missing goal scoring threats on a nightly basis. That 10th year was on the back of a top powerplay that completely vanished in the playoffs. It's great to have a weapon like that but it needs to be consistent, which the Wings have not proven they can consistently be a top powerplay team since Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg were all considered top players at their positions.

The Wings leaned heavy on Lidstrom and Holmstrom as the bread and butter of their powerplay attack for the better part of a decade. Their departures and the aging of Zetterberg and Datsyuk created massive voids that haven't been filled.

Kronwall-Abdelkader has been the attempt, but it's a poor imitation. The knockoff watches you find on a folding table next to a restaurant dumpster. I think Mike Green still has some juice left in him, so hopefully he's running the powerplay next year. And it would be great to see speedsters like Larkin get the nod to use his dangerous feet to open more space in the zone transition and retrieving pucks to maintain possession.

If they do those things and Vanek finds some scoring mojo, things could break their way. But it's going to take more than letting Kronwall lob shots near Abdelkader and hoping for the best while our perimeter wingers watch rebounds get swatted away.

All of which the big contracts to Helm and Abdelkader look so damn bad. They're good players, no doubt, but there was nothing in their history that said dependable top6 offensive forward. With Franzen's career falling apart, Datsyuk leaving for Russia, and Z showing his age...we don't have enough guys who are capable of stepping into those roles. Nielsen should be nice, and he'll probably hold us where we were the past couple of years, but that's all.

Honestly, we should have been looking for more deals like Vanek's. Guys who either are, or have shown the ability for a stretch of time, to be legit scoring forwards. Outside of pulling in a guy like Stamkos, there's just no reason to lock in on these middle tier talents for money and term. Unless we're happy with a middle tier team, which probably needs to be the take-away with Holland's actions.

 

[haulinbass]

I know this is supposed to be a joke, but it's just not funny.

Well it's not really a joke if it's all true.

Sorry, didn't know people were still taking this team seriously.

But you keep tuning into those Wings games and let them know their fan base is ok with them continuing to milk them for money.

I'm going to spend this season watching teams that want to win a cup. I prefer to be a part of the solution not part of the problem.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well it's not really a joke if it's all true.

Sorry, didn't know people were still taking this team seriously.

But you keep tuning into those Wings games and let them know their fan base is ok with them continuing to milk them for money.

I'm going to spend this season watching teams that want to win a cup. I prefer to be a part of the solution not part of the problem.

Good for you. Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

 

[jkutswings]

I was arguing that this team is one player away from being a real threat again. They don't have "a long way to go" such as Heaton suggested. Yes, it's a big hole to fill. The point still stands. It's one player. This team managed to score more powerplay goals the previous season with its leading scorer only having 66 points and having no elite defenseman on the blueline. They don't need a player scoring 106 points to have an elite powerplay.

Except that they're not.

If Karlsson was magically added tomorrow for zero dollars, Detroit still isn't a real contender, because they still don't have any real finishers up front. Who exactly is answering the bell against a Kane or a Crosby or any of the other high-end forwards in the playoffs? 2-3 years from now, Larkin MIGHT be in that discussion, but that doesn't do any good right now, and everybody else is either over the hill or simply don't have the talent to get the job done.

The Wings are a franchise with zero chance of true contention in the next five years, because they're built on being locked in at being average. Nothing at either extreme of the bell curve...just a very vanilla roster, with a vast majority consisting of the narrow range of slightly below average to slightly above average.

In other words...yawn on ice.

 

[Ezekial]

Well it's not really a joke if it's all true.

Sorry, didn't know people were still taking this team seriously.

But you keep tuning into those Wings games and let them know their fan base is ok with them continuing to milk them for money.

I'm going to spend this season watching teams that want to win a cup. I prefer to be a part of the solution not part of the problem.

None of us are part of the solution or problem. We're Wings fans.

20 straight years of being a top team in the league, followed by 3 mediocre years shows the true colors of spoiled fans.