Speculation: Next GM of the Vancouver Canucks Part II (MOD WARNING POST 382)

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denkiteki

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Jun 29, 2010
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Except a GM has the ability to change a roster to whatever he wants, a coach has to work with what he has.

Actually no, a GM can change the roster but its also based on the assets he has... not to mention he has to answer to the owner too. I.e. take the Kesler rumor for example, a perfect example of a GM not being able to change his roster the way he wants. You do the best with the assets you have and try to add as many assets as you can but at the end of the day you're still limited.

A coach has to play with what he has but that doesn't mean he can't try to change his player (clearly that didn't work out too well with a lot of the players given the number of career lows/recent lows). Sometime it works, most of the time it fails but realistically its how players develop into whatever players they become.

Personal could be an issue for JT but lets be honest, he had issues with his system in NYR and its nothing new for him to have his stars underperform... sometime you wonder if its the personal or just his system isn't working anymore. Just like 'nucks had the best PP in the league for a while but other teams adapted and figured out how to defend it (making the 'nucks PP one of the worst). The game is all about adapting and clearly JT's system doesn't seem to work well (as is) anymore and he didn't make the changes he needed to keep winning.
 

Love

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Feb 29, 2012
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I'm not sure those comments can be construed as running him out of town and what's to say they aren't just more comments trying to get him on the right side of the edge.

They've looked into moving him in the past. Good players get traded.

None of this suggests the bruins would want to get rid of him anyways. Moreso they want him to get his game in check.

Even if they traded him what makes them any less likely to acquire another skilled player in his place. Seems like you're trying to make a connection that just isn't there. Seems you're trying to create a narrative that the bruins sell every skilled young player they've ever had and that they do so while replacing them with non skilled bruisers.

I don't see that.

I actually agreed with pretty much everything you said until the bolded when you started putting words in my mouth. Where did I ever say once that the Bruins replaced their skill guys with unskilled bruisers? Did I even say that they have any unskilled bruisers to begin with?

That's just 'off' to me because at what point does a player fit the "Boston Model"? If guys like Burrows are referred to as "skill" players, and Krejci exists well in that environment - then what is a Boston type player?

This is exactly why Im confused as hell as to what the "Boston Model" actually is. I dont think Bruins management even knows.

Even a 2way pest like Marchand is "skill guy", and so does not fit the Model definition you have put forth. Meaning, he is another player that does not fit the "Boston Model" to you, yet has been a key cog in that environment for years.

What is the "Boston Model" I have put forth? Im dying to know since I just stated I dont know what the hell it is :laugh: The one consistency I know about how the Bruins have recently managed their teams is that when they see something they dont like in a young player, they trade them and try to make it work with a different player rather than work through those issues.

What does this mean? Where is your "line", and how does it differ? Your line has defined Burrows and Marchand as "skill players", something that is the antithesis of what Boston promotes (your assertion), but Marchand is a key figure in the BOS team identity and Burrows is often regarded as the 2way/hard working compliment to the 'skilled' twins.

There doesn't seem to be a clear definition here.

Actually, I said Burrows' skills are not his defining trait, but alright.

My quote when you asked me if Burrows is a skill player:
I dont think its necessarily his defining trait but he is certainly a skilled player

I dont get what the issue is with that. Do you not think Burrows is a skilled player? Everyone knows his defining traits are his hard work and 2 way play. I didnt think that needed to be stated.

I think its important to recognize I called Burrows a "skilled player" not a "skill player." Saying "skill player" implies that is what they are, while saying a player is "skilled" implies a certain trait about their game.


Anyway as far as the whole "line" thing:


When I say that my line isnt in the same place as Boston management, what I mean is that I would never be one to trade a player like Tyler Seguin in the same way that they did.

Obviously they felt that Seguin's issues were so massive that they couldn't ever be solved or worked out to a point that they could go on doing business together. This concept is crazy to me considering Seguin was a 21 year old who just led their team in scoring. If he was a replaceable bottom 6 guy, sure. Ship him outta town, not worth the trouble.

But when you have a truly special player like TS you dont just give up on him at age 21 for not living up to your wet dream of him becoming the next Patrick Kane. So to answer the "line" thing: My "line" with young, skilled players would be more patient than the Bruins "line" with young, skilled players.
 

Hi-wayman

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Feb 28, 2002
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Except a GM has the ability to change a roster to whatever he wants, a coach has to work with what he has.

You missed my point. It doesn't matter if the coach promotes a completely different system than the players are best suited for or the GM starts retooling and trading away core players just because their skills don't suit a team model the GM wants to see the team change into, a team like the Canucks are going to struggle because management is not developing and building a team system that utilizes best the skills the bring to the show.

We want a coach capable of building a winning team based on the players he has, not the players he hasn't. Tortorella didn't do this and he actually tried to mold the players into players suitable to his team system.

We want a GM who recognizes and acquires talent that supports the rest of the team and the team style and who is willing to move players that don't fit the team as a team, no matter how talented those players may be. For the most part Gillis was reasonably good at this during when AV was coaching , bit not so with Torts as coach.
 

Mayor Bee

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Dec 29, 2008
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Thanks for the well explained post. Unfortunately it points out why Howson would not be suited as the as the GM for the Vancouver Canucks. It would seem Howson would come to the tem with a vision as to how he wants his NHL team to play. Nothing wrong with that, but this was the same attitude Tortorella brought as a coach.

Howson may have had reason to replace the Columbus roster as well as their farm, but unlike Columbus at the time, the Canucks roster is still a solid quality team and that includes most of the team's farm and junior prospects. Our prospects are thin in depth, but what we do have are blue chip.

In order to build a wining team the way Tortorella believed was necessary to win, Tortorella brought in a new system that he expected the team had to re-learn how to play. Tortorella ignored the actual individual skill sets of the Canuck roster. His attempt to remold the Canuck players failed. Badly. This didn't mean Tortorella is a bad coach. I just meant Tortorella was a bad coach for the players and their skill sets that are on the Canucks roster.

From your description of Howson, Howson would not value the skillsets of the Canuck roster unless those skills matched the type of player he invisioned his ideal team required. Trading off a large portion of a roster, no matter how skilled those players are, takes years. Years of mediocre hockey for the fans.

Vancouver needs a GM and a coach that will mold a team around the individual roster player's skills we already have. Constantly adapting as older players retire or lose their usefulness and new, younger players come in and earn a roster spot. My personal choice would be Benning and Desjardins.

I understand your point, although I don't agree with the conclusion as it pertains specifically to Howson.

If you were to pare his entire philosophy of successful team building down to one sentence, it would be "Construct a team that is difficult to play against". That said, it takes multiple forms. Columbus is regarded as scrappy but undertalented, and I can't say that's inaccurate. There are a couple of above-average scoring threats (Johansen and Wisniewski), but outside of that it's a lot of solid depth.

It's not that he didn't or doesn't appreciate high-end skill. As a player, he had a junior season of 57 goals and 140 points, and in the IHL (as a rookie) he had 55 goals and 120 points. The issue is that the high-end skill in Columbus wasn't known for being overly competitive. The three biggest scoring threats he inherited were David Vyborny, Rick Nash, and Nikolai Zherdev. Zherdev's issues with disappearing for weeks at a time are universally known. Nash is notorious for the same, as this year's playoffs demonstrate for the world to see. And Vyborny was a non-factor in physical or tight games, in addition to the fact that his NHL career was basically ended in the first preseason game after Howson's hiring.

To me, being tough to play against takes multiple forms. Howson played for the Islanders during the tail end of their dynasty and saw the type of versatility that can make every player tough to play against. The top players on those teams could skate and score in a wide-open game, or those very same could rough it up and grind out a 2-1 victory. Against a free-flowing team, they could play suffocating team defense. Against a roughneck team, they could match up blow for blow, or they could stand down and score power play goals galore. They could go toe-to-toe with anyone at any time and in any type of game. But even among an entire locker room of guys who could rough it up if needed, Mike Bossy's job was never in danger because of what he couldn't do.

Looking at the big picture of Howson in Columbus, he went for exactly what he said he looked for in each draft: skating, hockey IQ, and passion. He was also willing to bend on some of that if there was a reason to. Wisniewski is fairly limited in his own zone, but there's something tantalizing about a defenseman who can generate offense in many different ways and log huge PP minutes. Cam Atkinson is undersized and not physical, but he has the ability to materialize out of nowhere and put the puck in the net.

If he were hired, I wouldn't be concerned about anything close to a Tortorella repeat. I blasted that hiring at the time, believing that Tortorella's intensity and overall pettiness could work only on a young team (or at least one with a young core) since a veteran core would tune him out really quickly. I'd expect a coaching hire of someone who could match lines effectively with a personality right in the middle, and the ability to tinker with playing styles repeatedly instead of sticking with his preferred style come hell or high water.
 

DadBod

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Sep 1, 2009
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I wish someone with more knowledge and computer savy could make a potential GM list of who's available, and some notable clif notes about them. What they've done, notable trades, draft picks, credentials etc
 

Alexistheman

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Jun 28, 2007
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Where are we at now? Who's the front runner, still Benning? Have we heard of anyone else getting interviews? Any rumours out there? Sorry been away for a bit.
 

DadBod

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Sep 1, 2009
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Barney Gumble

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Jan 2, 2007
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Speak for yourself. Awful player.

I'm speaking for myself...he's an alright #13 forward - especially if he's making the same coin as he did this past season. Need players of his "abilities" at times during the season against "certain teams".
 

skyo

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Sep 22, 2013
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???

That is not re-writing history, it is ignoring it completely.

The Canucks won the Presidents' Trophy for the second straight season as they finished the 2011-12 campaign with a 51-22-9 record. They caught a break earlier Saturday as the New York Rangers lost to the Washington Capitals and opened the door for Vancouver to take top spot overall. New York held the advantage on tiebreakers.

"It means we've had a good year," said Vancouver coach Alain Vigneault. "This group has played some real solid hockey, and been consistent, and for us to win the Presidents' Trophy again says a lot about the group of people and the equality of the people we have. Everybody could tell by how we came out in this game our guys really wanted it."

By finishing first overall, the Canucks ensured themselves home-ice advantage in all playoff rounds for which they qualify.​
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=392585

Fact remains the Canucks were horrible in the playoffs after 2011, core didn't change, team got worse, MG didn't address any of the obvious weaknesses well enough, hence he's long gone and I for one am happy for it!

Bring on Benning!
 

Wetcoaster

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Fact remains the Canucks were horrible in the playoffs after 2011, core didn't change, team got worse, MG didn't address any of the obvious weaknesses well enough, hence he's long gone and I for one am happy for it!

Bring on Benning!
The fact remains you were completely wrong in what you asserted in your post.

Trying to shift the goal posts ex post facto seems to be your go to strategy when you are challenged.
 

skyo

Benning Squad
Sep 22, 2013
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The fact remains you were completely wrong in what you asserted in your post.

Well I should have clarified my post to indicate my primary point was show how bad our post season play was, not what happens in the regular season.

After our ousting in 2012, 2013, and horrible play in 2014, you'd think MG would have done something kinda major to address the weaknesses this team had/has.
 

Wetcoaster

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Well I should have clarified my post to indicate my primary point was show how bad our post season play was, not what happens in the regular season.

After our ousting in 2012, 2013, and horrible play in 2014, you'd think MG would have done something kinda major to address the weaknesses this team had/has.
We do not read minds here.

We respond to what is posted.
 

Rex Banner

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Aug 22, 2013
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Fact remains the Canucks were horrible in the playoffs after 2011, core didn't change The eam got worse, MG didn't address any of the obvious weaknesses well enough, hence he's long gone and I for one am happy for it!

Bring on Benning!

The year after the cup final Daniel got the head taken off 5 games before the playoffs. Whether it was the reason the team couldn't get it done in the playoffs or not, it happened. LA went on to dominate its way to a cup. Not saying it excused the exit, but it's some solace at least.

The next year was a short season where everything was off. The Sharks had their way with the Canucks. The options at this point in my opinion was to start moving players out, or get a new coach to see if he could give the team a kick in the ass. Obviously it hasn't worked out, so now it's time to definitely start moving players out.
 

skyo

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Sep 22, 2013
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The year after the cup final Daniel got the head taken off 5 games before the playoffs. Whether it was the reason the team couldn't get it done in the playoffs or not, it happened. LA went on to dominate its way to a cup. Not saying it excused the exit, but it's some solace at least.

The next year was a short season where everything was off. The Sharks had their way with the Canucks. The options at this point in my opinion was to start moving players out, or get a new coach to see if he could give the team a kick in the ass. Obviously it hasn't worked out, so now it's time to definitely start moving players out.

Yeah injuries played there part for sure, but as you said MG had his chance to move players out and bring in some fresh blood, but he stuck with our core year after year, and the team got stagnant to eventual playoff no shows and hoping for good pick lol.

That on top of losing two #1 goalies in the process, I'm just hoping to get a GM who has some different connections with other GM's, and can do what MG should have done in shaking up the core roster a bit.
 

Addison Rae

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Jun 2, 2009
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Well I should have clarified my post to indicate my primary point was show how bad our post season play was, not what happens in the regular season.

After our ousting in 2012, 2013, and horrible play in 2014, you'd think MG would have done something kinda major to address the weaknesses this team had/has.

You don't retool a team that won back2back President's trophies because of a 5 game sample size in which the reigning art ross winner didn't play in 3 of them. How exactly do you expect Gillis to fix the roster in 2013 after having the cap reduced? He made one of the biggest deals of the summer, one that kick started out retool, he also entertained offers on Edler but wasn't offered fair value. Same thing in 2014 with Kesler, but yet again wasn't offered what he considered fair value.
 

pitseleh

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Jul 30, 2005
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Bennington draft record doesn't exactly blow me away. I hope there are other serious potentials out there with more of an "eye" for talent. Bennings drafting in Buffalo is pretty underwhelming. He did produce NHL'ers and all but nothing that jumps out at me as spectacular. Just my $.02

I'm not entirely sold on Benning, but the seven year run the Sabres had from 1999-2005 in the draft is probably the best run any team has had post-first lockout. In six years, with only one top-10 pick, they drafted: Ryan Miller, Derek Roy, Chris Thorburn, Jason Pominville, Paul Gaustad, Keith Ballard, Daniel Paille, Dennis Wideman, Thomas Vanek, Clarke Macarthur, Jan Hejda, Drew Stafford, Andrej Sekara, Patrick Kaleta, Chris Butler, and Nathan Gerbe.

Add in their cup of tea players as bottom end guys on the roster, and that's basically an entire team's worth of players, including three first liners.
 

skyo

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Sep 22, 2013
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You don't retool a team that won back2back President's trophies because of a 5 game sample size in which the reigning art ross winner didn't play in 3 of them.

That's exactly why he should of started tinkering with the core, to plan out backup plans for when one of our top two centers go down to injury.

How exactly do you expect Gillis to fix the roster in 2013 after having the cap reduced?
Starts off with the mishandling of our goalie situation, what a gong show entirely, in one full hockey off/season he manages to lose Schneider for a pick, then begs for Luongo's forgiveness, to turn around and trade him for a 3rd liner and a rookie goalie.

Then there is the Torts hiring, we will never know exactly how Torts was hired, but that was terrible move.

As for 2013 cap reduction, if it was write-off year he should have brought along some youth for the season, IF not he could have traded away some of our expensive 3rd liners like Hansen, something! there's always moves to make to clear cap space.


he also entertained offers on Edler but wasn't offered fair value.
Another one of MG's problems imo, his overvaluing of players.
 

Wilch

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Mar 29, 2010
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It's probably safe to assume we don't know the **** going on behind closed doors, so let's not make such conclusive statements?
 

Wetcoaster

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Ben Kuzma with an article about Linden needing a plan B if Benning goes to Washington or Pittsburgh (now Brisson has pulled out of consideration) as GM.

It’s also not surprising that Linden has reportedly interviewed Edmonton Oilers senior vice-president of hockey operations Scott Howson twice and Nashville Predators assistant GM Paul Fenton. He should probably have a chat with Shero, too.

Howson, the former Columbus Blue Jackets GM, helped lay the foundation for a more competitive club in Ohio and some decent drafting history there would resonate with Linden. So would the work that Fenton has done with the budget-conscious Predators.​
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/h...ith+Plan+case+Plan+Benning/9855919/story.html
 
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