New York Islanders vs. Edmonton Oilers

[Psycho Papa Joe]

The one thing about the Islanders dynasty that I don't see mentioned is that during their run of 4 cups they had back to back finals against cinderella teams. It doesn't mean that they couldn't have beaten better teams given the same situation but the fact remains that for two consecutive years their final opponents weren't exactly the cream of the crop.

I just can't get past them losing against an 89pt team at their peak.

You're right about the Isles opponents in the finals. That said, the Oilers usually had an easy Norris division champ to feed on prior to the final. Other than Calgary, nobody in the west would put up a fight against the Oilers. The Isles usually had tougher opponents during the run to the final.

 

[copperandblue]

That said, the Oilers usually had an easy Norris division champ to feed on prior to the final. Other than Calgary, nobody in the west would put up a fight against the Oilers. The Isles usually had tougher opponents during the run to the final.

There's examples of some early round light weights for both teams.

 

[KevFu]

The one thing about the Islanders dynasty that I don't see mentioned is that during their run of 4 cups they had back to back finals against cinderella teams. It doesn't mean that they couldn't have beaten better teams given the same situation but the fact remains that for two consecutive years their final opponents weren't exactly the cream of the crop.

And in 1980 and 1983, they beat the #1 and #2 point teams in the playoffs (in 1980, they also beat #3).

In the four cup runs for each team, the Islanders beat...
NYI: #1 PHI (80), #1 BOS (83), #2 BUF (80), #2 EDM (83), #3 BOS (80), #6 NYR (82), #8 WAS (83), #8 MIN (81)

EDM: #1 PHI (85), #2 NYI (84), #2 PHI (87), #4 BOS (88), #5 WIN (85), #5 DET (88), #7 WIN (87), #9 MIN (84)

Oooh, massive difference.

 

[potvins4cups]

This argument is like getting into a pissing contest with a skunk. i bet if you ask a ranger fan what's the greatest team ever assembled they will tell you their 1994 team could beat any team in history and the same goes for a penguins fan who will tell you their 1991-1992 team was the greatest ever assembled and that they would beat any team also.

 

[KevFu]

This argument is like getting into a pissing contest with a skunk. i bet if you ask a ranger fan what's the greatest team ever assembled they will tell you their 1994 team could beat any team in history and the same goes for a penguins fan who will tell you their 1991-1992 team was the greatest ever assembled and that they would beat any team also.

Yeah. I'm okay with "Well, I'm an Oilers fans, so we were better" as a reason for the stance. But both fan bases are gonna get fired up when the other says something that doesn't give the other one full credit.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

This argument is like getting into a pissing contest with a skunk. i bet if you ask a ranger fan what's the greatest team ever assembled they will tell you their 1994 team could beat any team in history and the same goes for a penguins fan who will tell you their 1991-1992 team was the greatest ever assembled and that they would beat any team also.

I dont think people are that dumb to believe their favourite team can beat a dynasty team at their peak. I believe the only way the Isles, Oilers, Habs etc at their peaks would lose a series is if the opposing goalie stole the show. How many goalies can actually outplay Smith or Fuhr in a 7 game series? I'd say possibly Roy or Hasek at their peak but thats about it.

 

[copperandblue]

And in 1980 and 1983, they beat the #1 and #2 point teams in the playoffs (in 1980, they also beat #3).

In the four cup runs for each team, the Islanders beat...
NYI: #1 PHI (80), #1 BOS (83), #2 BUF (80), #2 EDM (83), #3 BOS (80), #6 NYR (82), #8 WAS (83), #8 MIN (81)

EDM: #1 PHI (85), #2 NYI (84), #2 PHI (87), #4 BOS (88), #5 WIN (85), #5 DET (88), #7 WIN (87), #9 MIN (84)

Oooh, massive difference.

I'm not sure what your point is, I was talking about the finals specifically.

I aknowledged that both teams had some free passes on their bingo cards on the way to the finals over their respective runs.

 

[arrbez]

When did Smith ever play in a game 7? In junior maybe?

Fuhr was the best goalie in the world. Mike Keenan knew it. Why don't you?

Maybe Smith was good enough to close out series early, while Fuhr was not? See how that works?

While we're on the topic of poorly thought out circumstantial arguments:

When did Billy Smith's team ever win a Stanley Cup without him?

Fuhr was the best goalie in the world for a time, and so was Billy Smith. Remember, Smith is 12 years older than Fuhr, and was at the end of his career by the time Fuhr really began to establish himself.

 

[Trottier]

I'll be honest. I've seen every goalie since 1976. Smith from 1980-1984 was the best example of playoff, clutch goaltending I've seen. Other goalies were better, or more talented, but if you needed 15 wins over the period of two months, Smith was the best.

The irony (farce) in all this is that the poster determined to suggest a gulf between Fuhr and Smith cites the latter's regular season career (i.e., "never played 60 games").

That misses ENTIRELY the critical point:

Billy Smith is in the Hall of Fame based on his post-season exploits.

He was a good NHL goalie, October-March.

He was on another level entirely, April-May.

So I suppose, if that imaginary Isles/Oilers best-of-seven were played in November, "big edge" to Fuhr. Springtime? Not at all.

This argument is like getting into a pissing contest with a skunk.

They hold those?

 

[Felix Unger]

Two pretty obvious points:

1. This happened, close enough, in 1983. And it happened, close enough, in 1984. Each dominated the other for a series. The two series, as a whole, don't tell us anything decisively.

2. The Oilers probably don't become what they became without being pushed by the Isles. Gretzky said so himself. They might've, yet. But, at least, for all we know, they don't.

Therefore, the obvious conclusion:

There's no answer to the question. And even if there were, we couldn't know it. The Oiler's success and the Islander's success were not discrete events.

In summary, if you put a gun to my head, I'll give an answer. But if you put a gun to my head, I'd roll over and pee like a poodle (or a skunk) too...

Cheers,

Dan-o

 

[arrbez]

Therefore, the obvious conclusion:

There's no answer to the question. And even if there were, we couldn't know it. The Oiler's success and the Islander's success were not discrete events.

No doubt. Before we even ask these questions, we should ask ourselves:

What is a "question"?

How do we answer it? How do we know that what we call an "answer" is actually an answer? How can we ask the question of what a question is, if we don't know to begin with?

This is clearly the greatest metaphysical dilemma of our times.

 

[SCORE4]

The Islanders in their prime would beat The Oilers in their prime .... IMO .... six, maybe seven games .... Close series, but The Islanders played the style to beat Edmonton .... If NY had been healthy, they'd have won 5 in a row .... also getting a bit tired of the "If not for Steve Smith" comments .... Smith put the puck in his own net with about 15 minutes left in the game, not 15 seconds .... The Oilers had plenty of time to tie the game .... maybe The Flames should be given some credit here for holding off the high powered Oilers?

 

[Felix Unger]

No doubt. Before we even ask these questions, we should ask ourselves:

What is a "question"?

How do we answer it? How do we know that what we call an "answer" is actually an answer? How can we ask the question of what a question is, if we don't know to begin with?

This is clearly the greatest metaphysical dilemma of our times.

I personally find the issue regarding the semantic values of verbal ejaculations more vexing. As in, "Bite me", "Up yours", "Shove it", etc.

Cheers,

Dan-o

 

[Fourier]

These were two great teams that in some ways are easy to compare (great players, lots of heart) but in other ways were so different that it is apples to oranges. I chose the Oilers in 5 games. I did so for two reasons.

1) As an Oiler season tiicket holder from the WHA days until 1989 what else would I do?

2) On the less emotional side, I started with the premise that there was not a great deal to choose between the 1982-83, 1983-84 Islanders and Oilers. This is based on actual results rather than speculation. Below you will find the rosters of the Islanders form 81-82 (there stated peak), 83-84 and the Oiler's rosters from the same 83-84 season as well as what I consider the Oilers best team from 86-87 together with the players ages.

Islanders	   1981-82	1983-84		Oilers	1983-84	Oilers 	1986-87
Mike Bossy	24	26		Wayne Gretzky	22	Wayne Gretzky	25
Bryan Trottier	25	27		Paul Coffey	22	Jari Kurri	26
John Tonelli	24	26		Jari Kurri	             23	Mark Messier	25
Clark Gillies	27	29		Mark Messier	22	Esa Tikkanen	21
Denis Potvin	27	29		Glenn Anderson	22	Glenn Anderson	25
Bob Bourne	27	29		Ken Linseman	25	Paul Coffey	25
Duane Sutter	21	23		Pat Hughes	28	Mike Krushelnyski	26
Mike McEwen	25	27		Dave Hunter	25	Craig MacTavish	28
Bob Nystrom	28	30		Kevin Lowe	24	Kevin Lowe	27
Brent Sutter	19	21		Charlie Huddy	24	Craig Muni	24
Stefan Persson	26	28		Randy Gregg	27	Kevin McClelland	24
Anders Kallur	29	31		Willy Lindstrom	32	Randy Gregg	30
Wayne Merrick	29	31		Jaroslav Pouzar	31	Steve Smith	23
Tomas Jonsson	21	23		Kevin McClelland	21	Mark Napier	29
"Butch" Goring	31	33		Dave Lumley	29	Charlie Huddy	27
Billy Carroll	22	24		Lee Fogolin	28	Raimo Summanen	24
Dave Langevin	27	29		Don Jackson	26	Kent Nilsson	30
Ken Morrow	24	26		Dave Semenko	26	Dave Hunter	28
Greg Gilbert	19	21		Grant Fuhr	20	Reijo Ruotsalainen	26
Gord Lane	28	30		Tom Roulston	25	Jeff Beukeboom	21
Rollie Melanson	21	23		Pat Conacher	24	Marty McSorley	23
Billy Smith	30	32		Rick Chartraw	29	Jaroslav Pouzar	34
		                                        Andy Moog	23	Grant Fuhr	23
						                           Andy Moog	26

What stands out to me is how stable the Islanders roster was. Not just the core but the whole team is pretty much the same. Moreover, looking at the age of the islanders core it is very hard for me to see why the 82 team would be in its prime but the 84 team was on a significant decline. Of course injuries could play a role but the team's best players were pretty much in the sweetspot age wise in both years. One could argue that Goring and a few of the role players from 82 might have been moving out of their prime but this could easily be compensated by some of the younger guys like Brent Sutter gaining experience and playing a larger role in 84.

Contrast this with the Oilers. The Oilers key group of Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr and Lowe average age was only 22 in 84 (21 in 83). It would be hard to argue that this group was anywhere near their prime. As they matured their statistics may not have changed that much but if you ask anyone who saw then play through the dynasty years they will tell you that they improved immensely as hockey players as they aged. By 86-87 this group was, I think, significantly better than the Islanders top group from 81-82. What is also true though is that the Oilers supporting cast in 86-87 was almost across the board significantly better than it was in 82-83 or 83-84. As such the difference between the peak and the 83 or 84 teams would in my mind be quite a bit more for the Oilers than the Islanders.

Of course others will see it differently. Personally, I am very confident in my assessment of the relative strengths of the two Oiler rosters. I would of course welcome those with more first-hand knowledge of those great Islander teams to make the case in the other direction.

 

[golfortennis]

I was a little too young to really see the Islanders play, so I'm probably a smidge biased towards the Oilers.

Having said that, I think outside of lucky bounces(puck off a stanchion in the glass, puck hitting an official) deciding a game, I can't see who this doesn't go 7 games, and I really can't say one way or the other. I'd like to agree about Gretzky making the difference, but Bossy could easily go off for 4 goals in a Game 7 as well.

What I do know is that it would be very difficult to ever match the hockey those two teams would play, and I would absolutely love to see it. It will never happen obviously, unless someone can pull off a "Rink of Dreams"...