New York Islanders vs. Edmonton Oilers

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
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Based on a few things:

-Their ranking in the Hockey News all-time greatest players list. Fuhr at 70th, Smith 80th.

-Fuhr's play in the '87 game 7 where he out dueled the Vezina and Conn Smythe winner

-Fuhr's play at the '87 Canada Cup...when was Smith ever called upon to backstop Team Canada in a best vs best tourney? Oh yeah, never.

Man, you're being silly. Couldn't you just as easily say things like:

-When did Grant Fuhr win a Conn Smyth? Oh yeah, never.

-Billy Smith won 19 consecutive playoff series, did Fuhr ever come close to that? Nope.


If you asked most people on this board, you'd come out just about dead even between the two goalies. They're almost mirror images of each other.
 

copperandblue

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Sep 15, 2003
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I voted the Oilers in 6.

Taking both teams at their prime.

For the thread starter... the Oilers/Islanders met 3 times in the playoffs, not two times.

The first time was the second round in '81.
 

JoeMalone

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Apr 12, 2009
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Oh and after watching the 1984 Final on NHL Network the other night, I see the point on goalkeeping.

They just seemed ridiculously upright and awkward to me.

I think that its equipment based though. In that era of hockey, if you'd probably get killed if you weren't upright.

Then again, how many more goals would have been scored with composite sticks?

The biggest change in goalie equipment are their pads. Through the '80s they were still using leather pads, which has two major effects on style of play:

1) They slide over the ice. Modern pads have friction against the ice, allowing butterfly goaltenders to get back to their feet quickly. Leather pads just slid. Once you went down with leather pads, you accepting your fate that you were not getting back up until play left the danger zone.
2) The leather pads soaked up water. I can't remember the exact numbers old-school goalies have quoted, but the number twenty pounds sticks out to me. That was how much more the pads weighed by the end of the game than at the start.


Then there is the fact there used to be two ways guys ended up as goalies:
1) You were a little bit off and volunteered at a young age----
or
2) You were one of the worst skaters on the team at a young age, so you got stuck in net because it didn't matter so much.

These changed alot after Patrick Roy. Lots of French-Canadian kids who were some of the more skilled guys on their teams started choosing to be goaltenders, leading to a huge flood of butterfly goalies out of Quebec. That, changes in equipment and the shift to a more defensive game made the goaltender arguably the single most important player on his team, and more kids started choosing to be goalies.

The position has changed a lot since the early 1980s, just like it had changed alot from the 1950s to the 1980s. Goalies are very hard to compare from era to era, you have to compare them against their peers.


That being said, I'd argue Fuhr was better than Smith. The stats are comparable, but as everyone likes to point out, the Isles defence and system protected Smith more. Fuhr played for a team that---regular season at least---felt that a W was a W, no matter what the score was. No real difference between winning 4-2 and winning 13-8.

It wouldn't be Fuhr or Smith deciding the series anyway. If we are taking about teams at the peak of their ability, its very hard to argue against a team that could send the top six at you that the 1988 Oilers could. Their bottom six were not that bad either. Plus, their defence group has always been quite underrated. Kevin Lowe, Steve Smith, Jeff Beukeboom, Randy Gregg, Craig Muni, Charlie Huddy and Marty McSorley might not be as sexy as some other d-groups, but they got the job done quite admirably. They lack the puck moving of a Coffey, but as a defensive group they were quite good at keeping the puck out.

They lack a Potvin, but after that, compare quite well to the Isles group.

Goalies are at worst, equal.
Defence corp gets and edge to the Isles for Potvin, but rest of the groups are a wash.
Forwards go to the Oilers. The best of the Oil is better than the best of Isles, while the Isles role players may be better than the Oil role players, its your best players that win games. And the Oilers have, overall, the best players.


Hopefully that was coherent enough.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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From a talent perspective I'd have to say peak Oilers in 5 or 6. But at the end of the day, the Isles at their peak, would never have lost in 7 games against an 89pt Calgary team. The Isles, quite simply, always found a way to win those types of series.

Isles in 7

Yes they did but let's not forget that the '82 Isles, the best of that bunch, almost lost to the Pens in a 5 game series. They needed to tie the game up from 3-0 to force overtime to win. So yeah it can happen.

Oilers in 7 was my original pick and I think I'll keep it
 

Dark Shadows

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Jun 19, 2007
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The biggest change in goalie equipment are their pads. Through the '80s they were still using leather pads, which has two major effects on style of play:

1) They slide over the ice. Modern pads have friction against the ice, allowing butterfly goaltenders to get back to their feet quickly. Leather pads just slid. Once you went down with leather pads, you accepting your fate that you were not getting back up until play left the danger zone.
2) The leather pads soaked up water. I can't remember the exact numbers old-school goalies have quoted, but the number twenty pounds sticks out to me. That was how much more the pads weighed by the end of the game than at the start.


Then there is the fact there used to be two ways guys ended up as goalies:
1) You were a little bit off and volunteered at a young age----
or
2) You were one of the worst skaters on the team at a young age, so you got stuck in net because it didn't matter so much.

These changed alot after Patrick Roy. Lots of French-Canadian kids who were some of the more skilled guys on their teams started choosing to be goaltenders, leading to a huge flood of butterfly goalies out of Quebec. That, changes in equipment and the shift to a more defensive game made the goaltender arguably the single most important player on his team, and more kids started choosing to be goalies.

The position has changed a lot since the early 1980s, just like it had changed alot from the 1950s to the 1980s. Goalies are very hard to compare from era to era, you have to compare them against their peers.


That being said, I'd argue Fuhr was better than Smith. The stats are comparable, but as everyone likes to point out, the Isles defence and system protected Smith more. Fuhr played for a team that---regular season at least---felt that a W was a W, no matter what the score was. No real difference between winning 4-2 and winning 13-8.

It wouldn't be Fuhr or Smith deciding the series anyway. If we are taking about teams at the peak of their ability, its very hard to argue against a team that could send the top six at you that the 1988 Oilers could. Their bottom six were not that bad either. Plus, their defence group has always been quite underrated. Kevin Lowe, Steve Smith, Jeff Beukeboom, Randy Gregg, Craig Muni, Charlie Huddy and Marty McSorley might not be as sexy as some other d-groups, but they got the job done quite admirably. They lack the puck moving of a Coffey, but as a defensive group they were quite good at keeping the puck out.

They lack a Potvin, but after that, compare quite well to the Isles group.

Goalies are at worst, equal.
Defence corp gets and edge to the Isles for Potvin, but rest of the groups are a wash.
Forwards go to the Oilers. The best of the Oil is better than the best of Isles, while the Isles role players may be better than the Oil role players, its your best players that win games. And the Oilers have, overall, the best players.



Hopefully that was coherent enough.

I don't see how Defense gets an edge only for Potvin. Potvin is a clear step above Coffey true, but then what About the rest?

Kevin Lowe is probably the next best defenseman, but he is only slightly ahead of Morrow/Langevin/Persson. After Lowe, those 3 are a clear step ahead of anyone else Edmonton had and their 5th/6th in Jonsson/McEwen were better as well.

Defense to me, is clearly in favor of the Isles, by no small margin.

Forwards are a completely different ballgame. The Isles were stacked full of efficient two way forwards. Gretzky was indeed the best of the best, but after him? Messier was the Oilers next best, and I rank him Bossy/Trottier all in the same general area. Kurri was great, but is a step below those folks. Anderson was strong, but after him, it gets a bit more muddled as they had a more revolving door with some of their forwards. The Isles most certainly had an edge in depth at forward in their prime.
 

albertGQ

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Jul 1, 2005
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What's so great about the 88 Oilers? IMO, the 88 Flames were the best team. Can't believe the got swept by those mullets up North
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Dec 29, 2007
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Based on a few things:

-Their ranking in the Hockey News all-time greatest players list. Fuhr at 70th, Smith 80th.

-Fuhr's play in the '87 game 7 where he out dueled the Vezina and Conn Smythe winner

-Fuhr's play at the '87 Canada Cup...when was Smith ever called upon to backstop Team Canada in a best vs best tourney? Oh yeah, never.

Giving up 16 goals in 3 games to the Soviets was nothing to write home about.
 

Lounge Act*

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What's so great about the 88 Oilers? IMO, the 88 Flames were the best team. Can't believe the got swept by those mullets up North

The '88 Oilers had a mediocre (for them) regular-season due to Gretzky missing 16 games. But like other dynasties (a word in Calgary they spell "o-n-e") they knew how to win and lost only 2 games on their way to their 4th Championship.

It makes me laugh whenever a Lames fans brings up "mullets". Look in your own backyard, buddy. At least in Edmonton it's only the men who have them.

But I've heard from older Oil fans that the '87 team was their best team in franchise history.
 

greatgazoo

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Jan 26, 2008
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Man, you're being silly. Couldn't you just as easily say things like:

-When did Grant Fuhr win a Conn Smyth? Oh yeah, never.

-Billy Smith won 19 consecutive playoff series, did Fuhr ever come close to that? Nope.


If you asked most people on this board, you'd come out just about dead even between the two goalies. They're almost mirror images of each other.

When did Smith ever play in a game 7? In junior maybe?

Fuhr was the best goalie in the world. Mike Keenan knew it. Why don't you?
 

greatgazoo

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Jan 26, 2008
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Cobourg
Giving up 16 goals in 3 games to the Soviets was nothing to write home about.

Winning the Canada Cup is definately something worth writing home about. He did it with the reigning Conn Smythe and Vezina winner on the bench.

When did Smith have a season that matched Fuhr's 87-88 season? I can't quite recall when he ever played more than 60 games in a season. Can you?
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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What's so great about the 88 Oilers? IMO, the 88 Flames were the best team. Can't believe the got swept by those mullets up North

Gretzky missed 16 games, they didnt have Coffey to start the season and then had to trade him to make up for that loss. Plus they had 99 points to Calgary's 105. Not a difference really, they were still 3rd overall in the league in points. Plus Gretzky had arguably his best playoffs. Oh yeah and they had the Hart Runner up on their team too (not Gretz, but Fuhr to all the doubters)
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Giving up 16 goals in 3 games to the Soviets was nothing to write home about.

You really need to look at the roster of that Soviet team. Plus if you want to see a goaltending spectacle watch Game #2 of that series especially in overtime. I'm not saying Smith wasn't clutch either, but to those that doubt Fuhr was are obviously ones who have never seen that series before
 

Trottier

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Humorous how you asked a polite, serious question to whom one assumes is a mature adult here on the HOH board....and the retort is "oh yeah, never". :shakehead

Thought such silly emotional responses were reserved for the kiddie's board.

My own fanboy days of "fighting for my teams' legacy" ended decades ago. One can feel free to continue to engage in humourous attempts to degrade Smith's legendary reputation to deliver under pressure. One can lie to himrself in perpituity. You cannot lie to the educated masses.

Just opinion, of course, but I personally consider Fuhr and Smith, along with Roy, the three best pressure netminders I've ever seen. What's not opinion: every informed list of all-time clutch netminders includes Billy Smith. :nod:
 
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saskganesh

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Jun 19, 2006
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I had an amusing thought. Since Billy Carroll was a member of both "peak" teams, if they played each other would the space time continuum fold back into itself in some sort of infinite regression destroying life as we know it?
 

lextune

I'm too old for this.
Jun 9, 2008
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I had an amusing thought. Since Billy Carroll was a member of both "peak" teams, if they played each other would the space time continuum fold back into itself in some sort of infinite regression destroying life as we know it?
lol....excellent point. :laugh:
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Alternative

I had an amusing thought. Since Billy Carroll was a member of both "peak" teams, if they played each other would the space time continuum fold back into itself in some sort of infinite regression destroying life as we know it?

The alternative would be the cloning of Billy Carroll with an all Billy Carroll version of each team playing perpetual ties.
 

Psycho Papa Joe

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Humorous how you asked a polite, serious question to whom one assumes is a mature adult here on the HOH board....and the retort is "oh yeah, never". :shakehead

Thought such silly emotional responses were reserved for the kiddie's board.

My own fanboy days of "fighting for my teams' legacy" ended decades ago. One can feel free to continue to engage in humourous attempts to degrade Smith's legendary reputation to deliver under pressure. One can lie to himrself in perpituity. You cannot lie to the educated masses.

Just opinion, of course, but I personally consider Fuhr and Smith, along with Roy, the three best pressure netminders I've ever seen. What's not opinion: every informed list of all-time clutch netminders includes Billy Smith. :nod:

I'll be honest. I've seen every goalie since 1976. Smith from 1980-1984 was the best example of playoff, clutch goaltending I've seen. Other goalies were better, or more talented, but if you needed 15 wins over the period of two months, Smith was the best.
 

Psycho Papa Joe

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Yes they did but let's not forget that the '82 Isles, the best of that bunch, almost lost to the Pens in a 5 game series. They needed to tie the game up from 3-0 to force overtime to win. So yeah it can happen.

Oilers in 7 was my original pick and I think I'll keep it

Like I said, the Isles faced adversity, and perservered. The Oilers in 1986 did not. That's why I say peak Isles in 7. I think they find a way to win, despite, IMO, not having as much talent as the Oilers.
 

chcl

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Apr 8, 2009
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and that 19 straight stanley cup series wins no one will ever touch that. it was impossible when it happened. you could put Malkin Crosby and Ovechkin Lidstrom and Pronger on a team today and I doubt they'd do it just too much sustained pressure.. even the Great Oilers the best they could do was 9 straight stanley cup series wins. not even Half way. Hell even the Islander players are proudest of that.

Let's not get a head of ourselves here. I'm all for respecting the older teams but let us not totally dismiss the current talent.
 

copperandblue

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I'll be honest. I've seen every goalie since 1976. Smith from 1980-1984 was the best example of playoff, clutch goaltending I've seen. Other goalies were better, or more talented, but if you needed 15 wins over the period of two months, Smith was the best.

This is how I see it as well.

I think Fuhr often gets under appreciated because of the rest of the Oilers BUT between him and Billy Smith I would say Smith was the best playoff goaltender of the time.

Regular season, meh....but definately money in the playoffs.

Like I said, the Isles faced adversity, and perservered. The Oilers in 1986 did not. That's why I say peak Isles in 7. I think they find a way to win, despite, IMO, not having as much talent as the Oilers.

The one thing about the Islanders dynasty that I don't see mentioned is that during their run of 4 cups they had back to back finals against cinderella teams. It doesn't mean that they couldn't have beaten better teams given the same situation but the fact remains that for two consecutive years their final opponents weren't exactly the cream of the crop.
 

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