New School vs Old School - The Ultimate Player Edition

[Samsquanch]

I figured the "body" option was putting all these attributes in an impressive physical body. Orr's roughly 6'0 and 195 lbs. isn't impressive compared to Lemieux's 6'4 and over 200 lbs. Gretzky's brain and Orr's skating in Lemieux's 6'4 body would dominate.

How old are you? Just curious?

I know that you can google Bobby Orr and see that his weight and size are not really impressive by 2020's standards. But if you watched him play, you would never ask these questions.

He was a physical specimen. If your brain demands numbers to back this thought up, look at his PIM numbers. Bobby was a beast, and played far, far bigger than his size would indicate.

How big was Bruins legend PWF Cam Neeley again? Point proven...

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean Im not going to say your wrong. Its purely hypothetical, obviously.

But if you seriously had the choice and didnt at least consider the damage that could be done with a player as physically dominant as Lindros and the speed of McDavid, the fastest player in the history of hockey. And powered by the brain of the hardest worker and best leader in Crosby - then your not doing your job properly as a fantasy GM in bizarro world. Imo.

I think people forget just how intimadating Lindros was physically at his peak. Before he broke down. It was like Lebron playing high school basketball when he was already 6'8" from a matchup standpoint.



Lemieux was the better skater and had softer hands imo. Orr was more powerful, still fast and the best skater for his time, but not on the level of Lemieux and some of the other stars we saw emerge as time went on.

I don't forget. Lemieux, Orr, Gretzky are three of the best four players of all time. None of the players you listed are.

 

[Gurglesons]

How old are you? Just curious?

I know that you can google Bobby Orr and see that his weight and size are not really impressive. But if you watched him play, you would never ask these questions.

He was a physical specimen. If your brain demands numbers to back this thought up, look at his PIM numbers. Bobby was a beast, and played far, far bigger than his size would indicate.

How big was Bruins legend PWF Cam Neeley again? Point proven...

The point is Lemieux was a more physical dominant player and the whole reason his hands, skills and abilities were so impressive is because they came in a size that had been rarely seen before.

I question how old you are if you are going to act like Mario's size wasn't 50% of his package.

 

[Samsquanch]

The point is Lemieux was a more physical dominant player and the whole reason his hands, skills and abilities were so impressive is because they came in a size that had been rarely seen before.

I question how old you are if you are going to act like Mario's size wasn't 50% of his package.

Mario is my favourite player of all time, and my childhood idol.

But his size was used to attack with, guys hanging off his back and using that long reach of his to dangle the opposing team. Rarely ever was it ever used to push around the opposing team.

Orr was 100 times more physical than Lemieux was a player, and its laughable that I need to tell someone this in a hockey debate. Not even close. Height doesnt = physical prowess. Heck even Crosby is more physical than Lemieux if were being honest.

 

[Craig Button]

Brain of Lemieux
Hands of Lemieux
Body of Lemieux

 

[Gurglesons]

Mario is my favourite player of all time, and my childhood idol.

But his size was used to attack with, guys hanging off his back and using that long reach of his to dangle the opposing team. Rarely ever was it ever used to push around the opposing team.

Orr was 100 times more physical than Lemieux was a player, and its laughable that I need to tell someone this in a hockey debate. Not even close. Height doesnt = physical prowess. Heck even Crosby is more physical than Lemieux if were being honest.

I guess we have a different definition of physical. Lemeiux is the greatest one on one player in the history of the game and that is largely because he had silky smooth mitts and a reach and physical power that nobody else did.

I guess if you consider PIMs and fighting "physical" sure.

 

[Samsquanch]

I guess we have a different definition of physical. Lemeiux is the greatest one on one player in the history of the game and that is largely because he had silky smooth mitts and a reach and physical power that nobody else did.

Most likely. I'm talking about physical strength and athleticism. Power and aggression, and the ability to hit hard. Cam Neely was more physical than Lemieux despite being smaller, right?

Lemieux was the 1 on 1 champ because his hands were the softest things since silk sheets to come around. Not because he just powered through his opponents, like Orr did.

Would you rather have peak Bobby Orr or peak Lemieux backing you up in a fight? Whos going to be harder to play against in the corners, or in front of the net? Who do you need to keep your head up for on the ice when your thinking about cutting into the middle of the zone with the puck.

I love Mario like I love my dog Alfie (yes, that Alfie). But the answer is not Mario here.

 

[Gurglesons]

Most likely. I'm talking about physical strength and athleticism. Power and aggression, and the ability to hit hard.

Would you rather have peak Bobby Orr or peak Lemieux backing you up in a fight? Whos going to be harder to play against in the corners, or in front of the net? Who do you need to keep your head up for on the ice when your thinking about cutting into the middle of the zone with the puck.

I love Mario like I love my dog Alfie (yes, that Alfie). But the answer is not Mario here.

Lemieux is going to be harder to play against in the corners or in front of the net. If you're talking about big hits and fighting, I dunno. I don't really care TBH if I have Lemieux combined with Gretzky on my team.

 

[BlueBaron]

But it's not because having a bruiser like Lindros with the speed of McDavid would be the craziest athlete the NHL has ever seen.

Now give him Crosby's hockey brain and work ethic.....

Is the creative mind of Gretzky enough to tip the scale in the other way? I dont think it's an easy "yes".

lol. It really is. You forgot they get Lemieux's hands to.

 

[Samsquanch]

Lemieux is going to be harder to play against in the corners or in front of the net. If you're talking about big hits and fighting, I dunno. I don't really care TBH if I have Lemieux combined with Gretzky on my team.

By your logic Cam Neely and Ovechkin are going to get pushed around by Lemieux in a physical battle... and so Im gonna bail on this debate.

Fwiw I hate having to argue against Mario. But Im also not going to pretend that he was Lindros out there either, because thats hilariously far off base from the truth. Sadly Mario was like a giant target that didnt hit back, and the doors were wide open for everyone in the league to abuse the f*** out of him.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

Didn't Orr's body fail him. Lindros was more caused from the headshots.

 

[Samsquanch]

Didn't Orr's body fail him. Lindros was more caused from the headshots.

Right. And Lemieux got cancer and had a wonky back. For that reason I said in the OP lets assume were getting the peak version of each players traits while were building our franken-players.

Durability and longevity is not what this is about..

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

Right. I said in the OP lets assume were getting the peak version of each players traits.

Durability and longevity is not what this is about..

Gotcha. I need to read the OP in polls. I just vote and then comment.

 

[LokiDog]

I went modern. McDavid is faster than anyone ever was, and arguably his hands are better as well. Different era, of course - McDavid wouldn’t be doing McDavid things if those before him hadn’t paved the way. Same goes for Crosby. If those guys hadn’t paved the way for him, he wouldn’t be where he is, but all things equal, I’m taking the modern combo. That’s not an insult to the original generation; it’s basically their legacy. They created these guys in a sense. The game is different. The records won’t fall. The gap between top end and middle/bottom won’t be as large because they also created everyone else in the league, even if they aren’t as gifted as Sid and Connor, but there’s no reason the new generation shouldn’t surpass the old when it comes to this kind of amalgamation of traits.

 

[Samsquanch]

I went modern. McDavid is faster than anyone ever was, and arguably his hands are better as well. Different era, of course - McDavid wouldn’t be doing McDavid things if those before him hadn’t paved the way. Same goes for Crosby. If those guys hadn’t paved the way for him, he wouldn’t be where he is, but all things equal, I’m taking the modern combo. That’s not an insult to the original generation; it’s basically their legacy. They created these guys in a sense. The game is different. The records won’t fall. The gap between top end and middle/bottom won’t be as large because they also created everyone else in the league, even if they aren’t as gifted as Sid and Connor, but there’s no reason the new generation shouldn’t surpass the old when it comes to this kind of amalgamation of traits.

Very well articulated post. Especially this last bolded point which sums it up perfectly for myself.

 

[Gurglesons]

By your logic Cam Neely and Ovechkin are going to get pushed around by Lemieux in a physical battle... and so Im gonna bail on this debate.

Fwiw I hate having to argue against Mario. But Im also not going to pretend that he was Lindros out there either, because thats hilariously far off base from the truth. Sadly Mario was like a giant target that didnt hit back, and the doors were wide open for everyone in the league to abuse the f*** out of him.

Lemieux one on one would out do every player to ever play the game.

It's not like Lemieux didn't dummy his fair share in fights.

 

[Samsquanch]

lol. It really is. You forgot they get Lemieux's hands to.

Again, Ill preface this by saying that Im in the Mario fanboy club (maybe even #1!?) - I havent forgot shit my friend, Im like a friggin elephant.

Hand and Legs

Hands > Mario over McDavid.

Legs > Connor over Lemieux.

And while I dont like Edmonton and think that McDavid is a mix of vanilla and pure cringe as a person - hes next level good as a player. Hes the fastest and most gifted skater to ever hit the ice, And hes easily the biggest star of this new chapter in the NHL history book, and will be an all time great.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, Ill preface this by saying that Im in the Mario fanboy club (maybe even #1!?) - I havent forgot shit my friend, Im like a friggin elephant.

Hand and Legs

Hands > Mario over McDavid.

Legs > Connor over Lemieux.

And while I dont like Edmonton and think that McDavid is a mix of vanilla and pure cringe as a person - hes next level good as a player. Hes the fastest and most gifted skater to ever hit the ice, And hes easily the biggest star of this new chapter in the NHL history book, and will be an all time great.

McDavid's speed isn't really a revelation. The revelation is how well he handles the puck at said speed. That being said, you're really underrating your "favorite player".

 

[Samsquanch]

Lemieux one on one would out do every player to ever play the game.

It's not like Lemieux didn't dummy his fair share in fights.

Dude just stop. #1 its a team game and not played 1 v 1.

And next, Bobby Orr wasnt just physical and strong and feared for big hits "for a star player". He was literally one of, if not the most feared players in the game period. He was a ferocious hitter, and the best two way player in the history of the game.

This is honestly painful that Im having to convince you otherwise.

Lemieux was not a defensive beast or overly hard to play against when he didnt have the puck. At least not when compared to Bobby friggin Orr.

Can someone, anyone, please jump in here, and let our friend know that Bobby Orr was a WAY more physical and stronger/more powerful player than Lemieux was, despite being a bit smaller. Im still shocked this is really happening tbh.

 

[Gurglesons]

Dude just stop. #1 its a team game and not played 1 v 1.

And next, Bobby Orr wasnt just physical and strong and feared for big hits "for a star player". He was literally one of, if not the most feared players in the game period. He was a ferocious hitter, and the best two way player in the history of the game.

This is honestly painful that Im having to convince you otherwise.

Lemieux was not a defensive beast or overly hard to play against when he didnt have the puck. At least not when compared to Bobby friggin Orr.

Can someone, anyone, please jump in here, and let our friend know that Bobby Orr was a WAY more physical and stronger/more powerful player than Lemieux was, despite being a bit smaller. Im still shocked this is really happening tbh.

You seem to be extrapolating "physical" or "body" into defensive play.

If it is a team game, this poll is useless because you are comparing one player to one player.

Any player with Gretzky's mind and a physical aspect of Lemieux is going to be the greatest player of all time.

1v1 no players stood a change against Lemieux in his prime. And that was because he was physically able to dominate anyone.

 

[BlueBaron]

Again, Ill preface this by saying that Im in the Mario fanboy club (maybe even #1!?) - I havent forgot shit my friend, Im like a friggin elephant.

Hand and Legs

Hands > Mario over McDavid.

Legs > Connor over Lemieux.

And while I dont like Edmonton and think that McDavid is a mix of vanilla and pure cringe as a person - hes next level good as a player. Hes the fastest and most gifted skater to ever hit the ice, And hes easily the biggest star of this new chapter in the NHL history book, and will be an all time great.

I'll concede McDavid easily outskates Mario, skating really should have been Bobby's.

Mario's hands, Wayne's brain wins. The body category is bizarre picking two injury prone guys.

Old boys still win in my book. McDavid's skating isn't enough, it's why he's only a shade ahead of MacKinnon. Skating isn't everything, but it is nice I'll grant you.

 

[Samsquanch]

I'll concede McDavid easily outskates Mario, skating really should have been Bobby's.

Mario's hands, Wayne's brain wins. The body category is bizarre picking two injury prone guys.

Old boys still win in my book. McDavid's skating isn't enough, it's why he's only a shade ahead of MacKinnon. Skating isn't everything, but it is nice I'll grant you.

Like Im debating with the other gentleman above, Bobby Orr was a physical BEAST. A powerful and strong man that was more athletically gifted than the rest of the league by a long shot. With modern training he would have been beyond scary. Smaller than Mario true, but this is like prime Mike Tyson VS whoever you want imo - freak athletics trumps it all here.

Durability and longevity doesnt matter if you read the OP - were taking the best of each of their traits at their peaks.

Mario has the GOAT hands imo and I wanted him to be there for that reason. And I mean he has more than adequate speed (Orr could be a better overall skater. but thats not how the categories were broken down - and Orr still loses to McDavid at the end of the day).

And Crosby has the mind and work ethic to put the tools all to good use, so thats why Im sticking with the newer generation.

 

[Gurglesons]

Like Im debating with the other gentleman above, Bobby Orr was a physical BEAST. A powerful and strong man that was more athletically gifted than the rest of the league by a long shot. With modern training he would have been beyond scary. Smaller than Mario true, but this is like prime Mike Tyson VS whoever you want imo - freak athletics trumps it all here.

Durability and longevity doesnt matter if you read the OP - were taking the best of each of their traits at their peaks.

Mario has the GOAT hands imo and I wanted him to be there for that reason. And I mean he has more than adequate speed (Orr could be a better overall skater. but thats not how the categories were broken down - and Orr still loses to McDavid at the end of the day).

And Crosby has the mind and work ethic to put the tools all to good use, so thats why Im sticking with the newer generation.

Sounds like you have an opinion or Orr that most just simply don't agree to when it comes to his "physical" game.

 

[Samsquanch]

Sounds like you have an opinion or Orr that most just simply don't agree to when it comes to his "physical" game.

This hurts so bad... . Just Wow.

Im seriously not even the biggest Orr fan around (a wee bit before my time to truly appreciate). But Im not ignorant or oblivious to how amazing he was - physically Im talking. Never mind the scoring records and all...

You really need to educate yourself. Im not alone - this is common freaking knowledge, Everyone above 35yrs old or so knows that Bobby Orr was a pure powerhouse.


Boston Bruins Legends: Bobby Orr.

Bobby Orr could skate, shoot, pass ... and fight | Montreal Gazette

'Big, Bad, & Bobby': How Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito helped break Stanley Cup drought for Bruins in 1970

 

[Gurglesons]

This hurts so bad... . Just Wow.

Im seriously not even the biggest Orr fan around (a wee bit before my time to truly appreciate). But Im not ignorant or oblivious to how amazing he was - physically Im talking. Never mind the scoring records and all...

You really need to educate yourself. Im not alone - this is common freaking knowledge, Everyone above 35yrs old or so knows that Bobby Orr was a pure powerhouse.


Boston Bruins Legends: Bobby Orr.

Bobby Orr could skate, shoot, pass ... and fight | Montreal Gazette

'Big, Bad, & Bobby': How Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito helped break Stanley Cup drought for Bruins in 1970

Yes, but you are comparing him to the guy who redefined what size and skill looked like in the NHL.

I think you just picked the wrong word to use in terms of "body". If Mario and Orr are compared in terms of legacy. Orr is going to be the prototypical modern skating style and Mario is always going to be the prototypical "big man" who redefined what skilled players could look like throughout the next 20 years.