GDT: New Jersey Devils vs. Nashville Predators: The Sing Along

[guitarguyvic]

I think any talk of an identity went out the window last offseason. This team hasn't yet built a new one. And people acted like sweeping change would automatically be better, so far it hasn't been tbh.

Well that's apparently another taboo subject. Change for the sake of change is...well stupid...which is pretty much what a lot of the change since Lou left has felt like. I'm told not to expect our identity to take shape so early into Shero's tenure, but if you look at what happened to this franchise when Lou stepped in...his positive impact was immediate. There was no question what kind of identity Lou's Devils had from the very beginning, and it showed in the results on the ice in his very first season. This feels like the complete opposite. A new GM comes in, makes changes to inconsequential off-ice matters, appears to abandon the long-standing consequential on-ice identity but fails to replace it anything substantive (no their three word catch phrase doesn't count), and instead of improve the on-ice product in his first two seasons it has become worse than what we had before he got here.

And re: Cory...I'm pretty much giving up on him being elite this year. I'd still like to think three years of consistency as a starter buys him into next year before we attribute this to anything more than an off year.

Has he truly been consistent though? Basically every season he has gone through a month long stretch of mediocre play, although this one is clearly and significantly worse than those previous slumps. And for the most part he's been backstopping a team that's playing meaningless hockey (i.e. not in playoff contention) for half the season in each of those years. The times when the team was still in the race - early in the season - is exactly when he has gone through these "slumps". Basically his best play has come during long stretches of meaningless games.

 

[Bleedred]

Has he truly been consistent though? Basically every season he has gone through a month long stretch of mediocre play, although this one is clearly and significantly worse than those previous slumps. And for the most part he's been backstopping a team that's playing meaningless hockey (i.e. not in playoff contention) for half the season in each of those years. The times when the team was still in the race - early in the season - is exactly when he has gone through these "slumps". Basically his best play has come during long stretches of meaningless games.

Almost every goaltender goes through mediocre play over a month, Lundqvist had a couple himself last year, so did Holtby and probably everyone else. Marty had a couple months every season where he wasn't playing at an ''Elite'' level too. In fact, the month before Julien was fired Marty had a poor month. Although nothing nearly this bad.

What we're seeing right now is totally different than mediocre though.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Almost every goaltender goes through mediocre play over a month, Lundqvist had a couple himself last year, so did Holtby and probably everyone else. Marty had a couple months every season where he wasn't playing at an ''Elite'' level too. In fact, the month before Julien was fired Marty had a poor month. Although nothing nearly this bad.

What we're seeing right now is totally different than mediocre though.

I realize that all good players go through slumps. The point still stands - his best play has always seemingly come when the games become meaningless, and now he's been playing like a career backup who is in way over his head for over a dozen consecutive games. This is a guy who could potentially land us a significant piece (forward or defenseman + draft picks) in a trade. He is 30 years old - even if he is as good as some people think, by the time the team around him catches up he will be on the decline.

 

[Bleedred]

In the last two seasons, Cory hasn't even had a month in which he had a lower save percentage than his overall save percentage this year.

His worst month last year was a .909 in February. I don't think I should count his .861 March, in which he played 100 minutes and less than 2 full games....

He had a .919 in October of last year, those were his only 2 full months under 92% and his 100 minutes in March.

His worst month in 14-15 was .906 in October, that his only month under 92% for the season. That October was still higher than his overall save percentage for this entire season.

Again, he did have an .875 over 3 games in April of 2015 and 130 minutes of play. But that's a sample size of not even 3 full games.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Cory isn't playing well, but questioning his overal ability as a player is asinine.

There is nothing to back it up either.

 

[guitarguyvic]

In the last two seasons, Cory hasn't even had a month in which he had a lower save percentage than his overall save percentage this year.

His worst month last year was a .909 in February. I don't think I should count his .861 March, in which he played 100 minutes and less than 2 full games....

He had a .919 in October of last year, those were his only 2 full months under 92% and his 100 minutes in March.

His worst month in 14-15 was .906 in October, that his only month under 92% for the season. That October was still higher than his overall save percentage for this entire season.

Again, he did have an .875 over 3 games in April of 2015 and 130 minutes of play. But that's a sample size of not even 3 full games.

Fair enough. I'm just not seeing him as a difference maker - certainly not on a team that is trending towards the cellar this season and will be a bubble team for the next few seasons at best. After that you're looking at a goalie who is in his mid-30's...what is the point? Trade him now while his value is at its highest. If we can get back a high quality forward or d-man while signing one of those dime-a-dozen stop gap goaltenders, I can't see how this team can be any worse than what they've been the last few years. At worst, the players coming back in such a trade would likely offset what we are losing with Cory, but even in that scenario we're likely to get some draft picks out of it which bodes well for the team long-term.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Cory isn't playing well, but questioning his overal ability as a player is asinine.

There is nothing to back it up either.

It's not just questioning his ability as an individual player. It's a multitude of different factors - the stage of the "rebuild" the team is currently in, his (trade) value relative to our team needs, the cap space, etc. Put all those things together and to me the idea that he's untouchable seems short-sighted.

The truth is that this team needs to be rebuilt on the fly through trades and quality draft picks that can make an immediate impact, otherwise we will be stuck in this perpetual cycle where the goaltending, D, and O are not aligned talent-wise.

On that note, who was the last "elite" goalie to be traded (before Cory himself lol) and what was the return?

 

[Emperoreddy]

So we are potentially making changes of the sake of change and Shero might be doing a bad job. The implication being we should of stick with Lou.

At the same time claiming that Lou's last major trade was also a mistake

 

[Oneiro]

Of course we can't go back to playing those low-event games of the past. I will certainly agree with anyone there. But, if you put aside the whining about talent, the degradation of habits from every player not named Zajac should be pronounced to anyone who's been a longtime fan of this team. Bad sticks, chasing the play, overcomplicating the **** out of routine plays, total disregard for routine penalties.

It's all a bit too precious and clever. Which is fine when you have a team with two superstar forwards and one or two top defensemen (CHI, SJ, LA, STL, PIT, etc.)

This team plays just like everybody else. There is nothing special about Hynes system. He talks a great deal about structure and support and, after two seasons, I see very little of it. A lot of perspiration with no payoff, except this time we're talking about a transition first team that sucks at defending. Like a comic foil to the Devils of the last lockout season.

This team is the poor dude wearing $500 sneakers. Totally backwards.

 

[Emperoreddy]

It's not just questioning his ability as an individual player. It's a multitude of different factors - the stage of the "rebuild" the team is currently in, his (trade) value relative to our team needs, the cap space, etc. Put all those things together and to me the idea that he's untouchable seems short-sighted.

The truth is that this team needs to be rebuilt on the fly through trades and quality draft picks that can make an immediate impact, otherwise we will be stuck in this perpetual cycle where the goaltending, D, and O are not aligned talent-wise.

On that note, who was the last "elite" goalie to be traded (before Cory himself lol) and what was the return?

We aren't trading Cory or should. That is just silly tanking crap.

 

[guitarguyvic]

So we are potentially making changes of the sake of change and Shero might be doing a bad job. The implication being we should of stick with Lou.

At the same time claiming that Lou's last major trade was also a mistake

I never said we should have kept Lou.

I think Shero's approach coming into this organization was questionable - moreso considering it hasn't resulted in any immediate positive impact and it looks like it might in fact be causing regression.

I also don't think Lou's trade for Cory, in retrospect, was a smart long-term move. Which is part of a pattern he had already been showing and is why it was probably time for him to move on.

I can be critical of both. They are mutually exclusive.

 

[guitarguyvic]

We aren't trading Cory or should. That is just silly tanking crap.

This is the kind of dismissive attitude that perplexes me.

How is it tanking? You think this team is going to be significantly worse in the next couple of seasons if they replace Cory with a stop gap run of the mill goalie while potentially adding a talented skater into the mix?

What is the point of wasting a good goalie's prime years on a mediocre team when you could instead turn that goalie into key pieces of your team that will be in their prime years when the team finally gets could enough to compete?

 

[Bleedred]

We're still treading water in the playoff race with Cory of last two years.

He might have allowed more goals, due to his GAA going up from facing more shots. He didn't have to face 30+ shots most games last year. I don't even know if he had to face 30+ shots this many times in the last Pete/N. Bench year.

So if Cory can get back to that, we'll be a playoff team sooner than later.

But the offense needs to improve much more, same goes with the defense and possession game.

Hynes hasn't shown the ability to be able to coach anything resembling a decent possession game in almost a year and a half. I didn't even hold it against him last year with the horrific players (mostly forwards) we had, but it's even worse this year.

 

[MadDevil]

Maybe we should give Shero more than 18 months to really see what his plan is?

 

[Emperoreddy]

This is the kind of dismissive attitude that perplexes me.

How is it tanking? You think this team is going to be significantly worse in the next couple of seasons if they replace Cory with a stop gap run of the mill goalie while potentially adding a talented skater into the mix?

What is the point of wasting a good goalie's prime years on a mediocre team when you could instead turn that goalie into key pieces of your team that will be in their prime years when the team finally gets could enough to compete?

We are picking bottom 3 the next 5 years if we trade Cory. Absolutely.

 

[guitarguyvic]

We are picking bottom 3 the next 5 years if we trade Cory. Absolutely.

Well I don't agree. Imagine we could get back another player on Hall's level for Cory.

Have you seen the level of goaltenders on like half of the team's making the playoffs?

This notion that Cory is untouchable is silly.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Maybe we should give Shero more than 18 months to really see what his plan is?

Like I said, Lou's very first season here there was positive impact on the ice.

If you're going to dismantle an identity that was forged in greatness for two decades, you better show me some positive progression within those first eighteen months.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Has he truly been consistent though? Basically every season he has gone through a month long stretch of mediocre play, although this one is clearly and significantly worse than those previous slumps. And for the most part he's been backstopping a team that's playing meaningless hockey (i.e. not in playoff contention) for half the season in each of those years. The times when the team was still in the race - early in the season - is exactly when he has gone through these "slumps". Basically his best play has come during long stretches of meaningless games.

Sadly - I think you're right.... except for any trade talk...

I harped upon his rebound control, and his game management, when the great Marty debates raged.

I think he is a phenomenal positional goaltender. I think his angles are terrific. I think he's a great reflex/reaction goaltender as well - one of the quickest in the league.

I think his ability to control rebounds, and more importantly, deaden the puck on those rebounds and stop play when things are going insane in our own zone has always been lacking and only gets worse when his confidence lags.

When his confidence in the D in front of him lags, he gets even worse (as does every goaltender) because he sags deeper into his crease, trying to protect the backdoor pass.

As soon as Merrill failed to cut the pass on the 2-on-1, that set the stage for a bad night for Cory - As he was bound to play too deep from there on out.

I think he'll always have flaws - but I think he'll rebound and get back to Vezina level goaltending this year.... IF he gets some help from the mates in front of him so that he doesn't have to always try to get across - and IF he gets more aggressive and gets back to playing his angles.

We can't trade the guy for a multitude of reasons - particularly since is value is now way below what it should be.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Cory isn't playing well, but questioning his overal ability as a player is asinine.

There is nothing to back it up either.

Dude. Come ON already.

His confidence is completely shot right now.

He is a top-5 goaltender when on his game.

He can be a very average goaltender when he isn't.

Vancouver fans said as much at the time of the trade and bemoaned the fact that in the playoffs the guy had issues with rebound control, and when things went south, he'd go south with them.

From the very start, the guy has had the very easily dismissed 'can't come up with the big save when you need it tag'...

No knock on his abilities, which are truly exceptional, but he sure ain't proving anyone wrong these days.

 

[guitarguyvic]

Sadly - I think you're right.... except for any trade talk...

I harped upon his rebound control, and his game management, when the great Marty debates raged.

I think he is a phenomenal positional goaltender. I think his angles are terrific. I think he's a great reflex/reaction goaltender as well - one of the quickest in the league.

I think his ability to control rebounds, and more importantly, deaden the puck on those rebounds and stop play when things are going insane in our own zone has always been lacking and only gets worse when his confidence lags.

When his confidence in the D in front of him lags, he gets even worse (as does every goaltender) because he sags deeper into his crease, trying to protect the backdoor pass.

As soon as Merrill failed to cut the pass on the 2-on-1, that set the stage for a bad night for Cory - As he was bound to play too deep from there on out.

I think he'll always have flaws - but I think he'll rebound and get back to Vezina level goaltending this year.... IF he gets some help from the mates in front of him so that he doesn't have to always try to get across - and IF he gets more aggressive and gets back to playing his angles.

We can't trade the guy for a multitude of reasons - particularly since is value is now way below what it should be.

His rebound control is bad and that is a highly overlooked aspect of the position.

I don't know if I agree that his value is low. I would think his perception around the league is similar to what we see here on the boards. Regardless, I would think a trade would be an offseason move, not something done in the middle of the season while he is struggling. Of course if this lasts the whole season then that could tank his value.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Maybe we should give Shero more than 18 months to really see what his plan is?

Here's the thing:

I think Ray's plan is clear - upgrade the forward core with talent and speed and try to outscore your opponent.

I think that's a good plan. I would very much like to see it work.

Without Sidney Crosby, Malkin and some other top draft picks, I think it is tough to make it work. Ray is doing his best with getting bargain basement discount players with great potential... but who might just bust out, or bust.

Talent, speed, skill and sacrifice defense.

Problem is -
Our goaltending is now not up to the task because our D has been so horrible.
Our coaching isn't up to the task because they are JohnnyMac'ing it from the start of this season - mixing/matching lines looking for a spark instead of building confidence and momentum.
Our forwards aren't up to the task because... well, they aren't talented enough to play that way.

You can be a playoff team with a bunch of 2nd/3rd liners, good D and good goaltending - if everyone buys in to winning 2-1 games.

You can't be a playoff team winning every game 7-3 unless you have Malkin, Crosby, Kessel, et al. Or at least, you need a bunch of guys who THINK they might be Crosby Malkin etc...

 

[guitarguyvic]

Dude. Come ON already.

His confidence is completely shot right now.

He is a top-5 goaltender when on his game.

He can be a very average goaltender when he isn't.

Vancouver fans said as much at the time of the trade and bemoaned the fact that in the playoffs the guy had issues with rebound control, and when things went south, he'd go south with them.

From the very start, the guy has had the very easily dismissed 'can't come up with the big save when you need it tag'...

No knock on his abilities, which are truly exceptional, but he sure ain't proving anyone wrong these days.

I was one of Cory's biggest supporters when he was getting the shaft in favor of Marty. I didn't buy the idea that Marty was the better option just because the team happened to be winning (scoring more) when he was in.

But it's four years in now. If you look beyond the simple GAA and save percentage stats, there's a ton of red flags there that I feel like our fans are conveniently glossing over. Add in where we are with other needs and the reality of where this team stands to be over the next couple of years, and it just becomes more and more reasonable to consider him as an asset that can help improve the team through a transaction rather than on the ice.

 

[billingtons ghost]

I was one of Cory's biggest supporters when he was getting the shaft in favor of Marty. I didn't buy the idea that Marty was the better option just because the team happened to be winning (scoring more) when he was in.

But it's four years in now. If you look beyond the simple GAA and save percentage stats, there's a ton of red flags there that I feel like our fans are conveniently glossing over. Add in where we are with other needs and the reality of where this team stands to be over the next couple of years, and it just becomes more and more reasonable to consider him as an asset that can help improve the team through a transaction rather than on the ice.

I agree. When you don't control your rebound - you get more shots on goal and your SV% goes up.

It's like people painting Bennett as a good player because he has good possession stats. His stats are the way he is because of the way he plays the game. Yeah, the puck can sometimes end up more in the offensive zone because he's fast and can carry the puck a little. It also ends up in his own net because he can't do defensive coverage in his own zone, and can't win a puck battle. So - people will point to Corsi and ignore +/-.

Oddly enough on the Cory thing, I've kinda gone in the other direction and now I support Cory more than bash him.

I really think he can turn it around for this team, but he's going to need his forwards to stop giving away the puck and his D to have alot better gap control and clear his crease.

 

[Chessarmy]

Cory Schneider is not an elite goaltender, period. once you remove those expectations it makes it a little easier to deal with his slumps. I think he isn't quite as bad as he's been lately but clearly not who I would have traded a top draft pick for.

I had a bad feeling about that trade the minute it was announced.

 

[MadDevil]

This board has officially gone off the deep end.