NCAA Hockey Expansion Thread

[S E P H]

Ok, but it's still duplicitous to be recruiting players like it's a done deal when it's not. They're way out over their skis with their certainty that "it's going to happen." It's not like the school will lose much face if it doesn't happen, but the recruits and their families who were sold on the school because the kids were told they'd be playing NCAA Division I hockey only to be told, "Whoops! We couldn't raise the money!" are the ones left holding the bag.

I'm not sure a school could do that, it seems like they could be sued the hell out of business and that's what higher education is in the end.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I'm not sure a school could do that, it seems like they could be sued the hell out of business and that's what higher education is in the end.

Well, yeah - they could be sued for fraud. But that's the risk they're running by telling these kids they'll be playing NCAA Division I hockey when they haven't yet secured the funding to establish an NCAA Division I program. Because what if they don't come up with the money? Some of these kids could have gone to play four years of NCAA Division I hockey at a real college hockey school, but instead they relied on what could be material misrepresentations by Lindenwood.

 

[BOS358]

Well, yeah - they could be sued for fraud. But that's the risk they're running by telling these kids they'll be playing NCAA Division I hockey when they haven't yet secured the funding to establish an NCAA Division I program.

But could the players actually sue for fraud? The only way I'd see a lawsuit moving forward successfully is if the players signed a letter of intent which guarantees a year of scholarship money. Anything that happens before the signing is a strictly verbal commitment, which according to the NCAA, means absolutely nothing and leaves either side with no recourse should it be broken (which it often is.)

 

[S E P H]

Well, yeah - they could be sued for fraud. But that's the risk they're running by telling these kids they'll be playing NCAA Division I hockey when they haven't yet secured the funding to establish an NCAA Division I program. Because what if they don't come up with the money? Some of these kids could have gone to play four years of NCAA Division I hockey at a real college hockey school, but instead they relied on what could be material misrepresentations by Lindenwood.

Obviously it would be hard to fight for the players, but what I am implying is that the chances of the school conducting what you're saying is (or should be) very low. It's definitely possible and if it is does happen it shows that these faculty heads/administrators are way out of their depth and should resign immediately.

 

[mk80]

It could be viewed as an over promise to the players, and I understand that point of view. I'm sure they've at least been told it'll be an ACHA season in 21-22 with maybe an NCAA opponent or two sprinkled in. I would certainly be POed if it didn't happen and for these players to be misled, I've seen it happen to a handful of junior players with both colleges and other junior teams.

That said, I would be confident in betting about everything I have that either the fundraising goal is close to being met, or has been reached/surpassed already, for the AD to be speaking about it in the way that he is, and for players to be recruited. And this year with covid there would be advantages in waiting to make an official announcement even if the fundraising goal has been reached.

 

[S E P H]

It could be viewed as an over promise to the players, and I understand that point of view. I'm sure they've at least been told it'll be an ACHA season in 21-22 with maybe an NCAA opponent or two sprinkled in. I would certainly be POed if it didn't happen and for these players to be misled, I've seen it happen to a handful of junior players with both colleges and other junior teams.

That said, I would be confident in betting about everything I have that either the fundraising goal is close to being met, or has been reached/surpassed already, for the AD to be speaking about it in the way that he is, and for players to be recruited. And this year with covid there would be advantages in waiting to make an official announcement even if the fundraising goal has been reached.

Do we know how much their targeted goal is and where they are currently?

 

[CrazyEddie20]

But could the players actually sue for fraud? The only way I'd see a lawsuit moving forward successfully is if the players signed a letter of intent which guarantees a year of scholarship money. Anything that happens before the signing is a strictly verbal commitment, which according to the NCAA, means absolutely nothing and leaves either side with no recourse should it be broken (which it often is.)

You can sue for anything you want, you just might not win. The thing is, the vast majority of civil lawsuits in the US never make it to trial, they either get dismissed, one side suffers a summary judgment, or, most likely, they're settled out of court. Any lawsuit that requires a private university to engage their high-priced lawyers is going to cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to defend even if it settles out of court. In this case, a verdict at trial would likely hinge upon whether Lindenwood acted with intent to deceive the players to get them to come to the school. As soon as the case gets to the discovery phase, the plaintiffs would get access to every single email, note, letter, and meeting record regarding Lindenwood's men's hockey program. What might they find in there?

These players can't sign an NLI to a program that doesn't exist. But they can enroll in the school based on promises made to them, which are potentially in writing, at their own expense to play club hockey. If they relied on Lindenwood's promises and Lindenwood doesn't deliver, see my above paragraph.

Obviously it would be hard to fight for the players, but what I am implying is that the chances of the school conducting what you're saying is (or should be) very low. It's definitely possible and if it is does happen it shows that these faculty heads/administrators are way out of their depth and should resign immediately.

Knowing that you're not from the US, I don't expect you to understand just how dirty the business of NCAA revenue sports actually is and how disconnected it is from a university's faculty and main administration.

It could be viewed as an over promise to the players, and I understand that point of view. I'm sure they've at least been told it'll be an ACHA season in 21-22 with maybe an NCAA opponent or two sprinkled in. I would certainly be POed if it didn't happen and for these players to be misled, I've seen it happen to a handful of junior players with both colleges and other junior teams.

That said, I would be confident in betting about everything I have that either the fundraising goal is close to being met, or has been reached/surpassed already, for the AD to be speaking about it in the way that he is, and for players to be recruited. And this year with covid there would be advantages in waiting to make an official announcement even if the fundraising goal has been reached.

The fundraising goal has not been met. “We’re definitely moving down that path, but we have not announced anything publicly yet ...partly because we still have a fundraising goal we need to hit, that we’re working actively on right now,” said Brad Wachler, Lindenwood’s athletic director. “We’re in the quiet stages of that fundraising.” Private Missouri college aiming to add Division I men's hockey within two years | The Rink Live

That they're in the "quiet stages" of the fundraising likely means that they're reaching out to bigger donors to cover it all or a sizable portion before going to the wider University donor base to pull in smaller amounts of money that add up to a large pile of money. Either way, the money isn't there. Right now, in my opinion, they're promising something to players they can't deliver on.

 

[mk80]

Do we know how much their targeted goal is and where they are currently?

I don't think it has been said publicly at least that I've seen anywhere, so yes, but I'm kind of operating the same way with anything else regarding this and essentially confirming what is already released, because I don't want to leak anything that hasn't yet.

The fundraising goal has not been met. “We’re definitely moving down that path, but we have not announced anything publicly yet ...partly because we still have a fundraising goal we need to hit, that we’re working actively on right now,” said Brad Wachler, Lindenwood’s athletic director. “We’re in the quiet stages of that fundraising.” Private Missouri college aiming to add Division I men's hockey within two years | The Rink Live

That they're in the "quiet stages" of the fundraising likely means that they're reaching out to bigger donors to cover it all or a sizable portion before going to the wider University donor base to pull in smaller amounts of money that add up to a large pile of money. Either way, the money isn't there. Right now, in my opinion, they're promising something to players they can't deliver on.

Right, I don't mean my previous comment to guarantee they've already met the goals, but more or less I would bet they are close to it, or close to the established amount where they feel comfortable in proceeding with the process of recruiting players, and starting to actively work toward a team.

In this case, a verdict at trial would likely hinge upon whether Lindenwood acted with intent to deceive the players to get them to come to the school. As soon as the case gets to the discovery phase, the plaintiffs would get access to every single email, note, letter, and meeting record regarding Lindenwood's men's hockey program. What might they find in there?

These players can't sign an NLI to a program that doesn't exist. But they can enroll in the school based on promises made to them, which are potentially in writing, at their own expense to play club hockey. If they relied on Lindenwood's promises and Lindenwood doesn't deliver, see my above paragraph.

I'm the furthest thing from a legal expert but if I had to guess, I would bet something is in writing or the way the recruiting process has been presented there is something to CYA Lindenwood in the event the fundraising fell through.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Right, I don't mean my previous comment to guarantee they've already met the goals, but more or less I would bet they are close to it, or close to the established amount where they feel comfortable in proceeding with the process of recruiting players, and starting to actively work toward a team.

Well, the University of Illinois basically did the same thing Lindenwood is doing now, albeit without actively recruiting players, and we know what happened there. Still playing club hockey, still no rink, still not any closer than loudly talking about how they're going to have real college hockey.

As far as a CYA in recruiting, there's not much you can do. If you don't end up with a Division I program, you've stiffed these kids out of years of athletic eligibility they might not be able to get back. Maybe some of these kids are marginal players at best, maybe this is their best chance to play real college hockey. If they relied on LU's word that there was going to be real college hockey in two years and then there wasn't, that's a bad look for the school and a really bad look for Wachler and Zombo.

 

[mk80]

Considering right now all we have to go on officially right now is player commitments. Something I didn’t expect to see this summer was LU bring any transfers into the mix but one player from AIC will be coming over

 

[Ridge1982]

I always chuckle when I see photos from the 2020 ASG weekend @ Centene. That's more fans than both of the LU hockey programs draw in a season - combined. Self-identifying "hockey fans" around St. Louis are overwhelmingly exclusive followers of the NHL, and IMO they will stay that way despite the presence of an NCAA Division I men's hockey team. So if LU wants to build & sustain a repeat fan base, I hope they can learn some marketing strategies from college programs in metro areas with established NHL allegiances. But I also reckon full arenas aren't a prerequisite for major college hockey conference membership, as long as generous local sponsorships are part of the dowry.

The Billikens have been a respectable D1 basketball program for generations. Have a relatively new arena in Midtown and yet fail to garner any attention from the local media except for Frank Cusamano.....and let's not even start with Mizzou and Illinois. College sports simply aren't a religion in St. Louis, but I'm rooting for Lindenwood to hold their own at the next level.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

The Billikens have been a respectable D1 basketball program for generations. Have a relatively new arena in Midtown and yet fail to garner any attention from the local media except for Frank Cusamano.....and let's not even start with Mizzou and Illinois. College sports simply aren't a religion in St. Louis, but I'm rooting for Lindenwood to hold their own at the next level.

They also had a Division I hockey program... back in the 70s.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Considering right now all we have to go on officially right now is player commitments. Something I didn’t expect to see this summer was LU bring any transfers into the mix but one player from AIC will be coming over

Five foot 10, 165 pounds, one goal in six games at AIC? This guy is going to be a club hockey superstar.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

https://www.uscho.com/2021/04/28/te...-starting-new-ncaa-division-i-hockey-program/

Tennessee State University is reportedly looking into starting a program.

 

[JMCx4]

Five foot 10, 165 pounds, one goal in six games at AIC? This guy is going to be a club hockey superstar.

But he possesses that immeasurable "winning spirit" after AIC won their conference championship to get to the Tourney. So he's got THAT going for him ... which is nice ...

 

[JMCx4]

They also had a Division I hockey program... back in the 70s.

Ah, the good old days.

 

[mk80]

The Billikens have been a respectable D1 basketball program for generations. Have a relatively new arena in Midtown and yet fail to garner any attention from the local media except for Frank Cusamano.....and let's not even start with Mizzou and Illinois. College sports simply aren't a religion in St. Louis, but I'm rooting for Lindenwood to hold their own at the next level.

I disagree about that, I tend to see a lot of SLU basketball coverage. Games on BSMidwest from time to time, Bob Ramsey has his show and always gives them time on 590TheFan, there is usually good coverage of them in the Post Dispatch, etc. Games are broadcast on KMOX (or their sister station), plus a weekly Coaches show with head coach Travis Ford.

https://www.uscho.com/2021/04/28/te...-starting-new-ncaa-division-i-hockey-program/

Tennessee State University is reportedly looking into starting a program.

I have been suspecting the Preds to be involved in one of the anonymous college hockey studies done in partnership with NHL teams that we've heard about. Tennessee State would be interesting if they add NCAA hockey. The addition of a hockey program would I'm sure be a welcome sight for Alabama Huntsville.

Five foot 10, 165 pounds, one goal in six games at AIC? This guy is going to be a club hockey superstar.

It wouldn't be the first time LU has brought an undersized guy whos gone on to have success there. Whether that success is with the team in it's current ACHA form, or with the TBA NCAA team. Either way we'll take him!

Seems to be a decent player in his NAHL junior days. We'll see if its a situation of he just couldn't cut it at AIC or DI, or other factors kept him out of the lineup there.

 

[S E P H]

https://www.uscho.com/2021/04/28/te...-starting-new-ncaa-division-i-hockey-program/

Tennessee State University is reportedly looking into starting a program.

Interesting, I'm all for any new programme, but why not Volts? Wtf is a Tennessee State University?

E: Oh wow, that's even more interesting to read that it's a Black university.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Interesting, I'm all for any new programme, but why not Volts? Wtf is a Tennessee State University?

E: Oh wow, that's even more interesting to read that it's a Black university.

Unless I'm missing something, the Vols athletics program has never been interested in adding varsity hockey. Why would you think the University of Tennessee would be more likely to add hockey than Tennessee State University?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I have been suspecting the Preds to be involved in one of the anonymous college hockey studies done in partnership with NHL teams that we've heard about. Tennessee State would be interesting if they add NCAA hockey. The addition of a hockey program would I'm sure be a welcome sight for Alabama Huntsville.

The Nashville Predators are/were heavily linked with the new arena being built in Clarksville, TN. Austin Peay was rumored as interested in starting a team.

 

[S E P H]

Unless I'm missing something, the Vols athletics program has never been interested in adding varsity hockey. Why would you think the University of Tennessee would be more likely to add hockey than Tennessee State University?

No offence to TSU, but I want bigger programmes, we already have enough of these secondary markets in hockey like Union College, etc.

 

[mk80]

The Nashville Predators are/were heavily linked with the new arena being built in Clarksville, TN. Austin Peay was rumored as interested in starting a team.

Yes. Which is one reason I'm a bit surprised to Tennessee State in the conversation, I had figured Austin Peay might be a candidate for adding a hockey program in that arena. They've put a lot of money into their athletics in recent years, including an $18ish million dollar renovation of their football stadium.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

No offence to TSU, but I want bigger programmes, we already have enough of these secondary markets in hockey like Union College, etc.

This is a bad take.

 

[S E P H]

This is a bad take.

I don't disagree, but what I want to say is I am not trying to punish clubs like Union, St. Thomas, or if TSU get a team. I actually want more teams so I will take anyone, but it's frustrating when it's not a power five. The introduction of Penn State pretty allowed the Big Ten to form their own conference, I want see the same thing happen with PAC in the future as well. Plus, what's the sustainability of TSU thirty/forty years down the road from now compared to Oregon/Ohio University (random examples) getting a team?

 

[CrazyEddie20]

I don't disagree, but what I want to say is I am not trying to punish clubs like Union, St. Thomas, or if TSU get a team. I actually want more teams so I will take anyone, but it's frustrating when it's not a power five. The introduction of Penn State pretty allowed the Big Ten to form their own conference, I want see the same thing happen with PAC in the future as well. Plus, what's the sustainability of TSU thirty/forty years down the road from now compared to Oregon/Ohio University (random examples) getting a team?

Well, considering neither Tennessee State nor Oregon or Ohio U have NCAA hockey programs, it's a moot point.

If you look around the landscape of college hockey, you'll see that it's largely made up of unique schools in certain geographical regions. Penn State adding hockey and the Big Ten schools playing in their own league has only hurt college hockey. It brought the recruiting arms race that the unique schools that have long traditions playing Division I college hockey can't win while doing almost nothing to grow the game or build a larger fanbase for college hockey. A lot of college hockey fans like that those unique schools can play on a big stage and be competitive, and the more bigger schools play, the less proverbial oxygen those programs have to breathe, effectively punishing those smaller schools you just said you don't want to punish. As a hockey alumnus of one of those schools, I don't want to see that. College hockey is a small community, and most fans, coaches, and ADs don't want to see harm to any of that community.