News Article: Nazem Kadri: Wrongly Undervalued In Leafs Nation

[Purity*]

Kadri has got the talent and the skills to be a great top-6 C in this league, supposedly he's working really hard this season because knows if he doesn't live up to his full potential this season under a great coach, he may never get that big pay-day. I truly believes he likes playing for the Leafs, he's a guy who likes the spotlight, and there's no spotlight like Toronto.

That being said, he's gotta take **** 100% serious this season. The skill and the talent is there, even his biggest detractors will admit that (well there's a couple particular posters around here that are so nonobjective that they will never talk about the good sides of his game). All this being said, when people call "linemates, coaches, usage, etc.." making excuses, that's just being plain stupid and not looking at things reasonably. Look at his linemates last year; Winnik, Komarov, Santorelli, Panik, Lupul, Clarkson, and so on and so forth. Not only is this a ridiculous carasoul of linemates that makes building chemistry very hard to do (which definitely helps production!), but these guys are all bottom-6 grinders with bottom-6 skillsets (except for perma-injured Lupul). The best overall line we had last year was a Winnik-Kadri-Santa line, and it's kind of funny how both those players completely fell off the map when they got traded.

The advanced stats about Kadri do not lie, he's easily our best forward at controlling the offensive zone and creating chances of cycling and making great plays in general. If he gets his head in the game and puts it all together, he can be a great center in this league.

 

[Purity*]

Never have I read so many excuses made for a player on a year by year basis. When his 5 on 5 play suffered in the 2013-14 season. His PP stats, which was the 2nd most points 17 to Kessel's 18 made his stats somewhat respectable with his only 50 point season thus far in his career. Now the refrain is he is to be only measured on 5v5 stats and the PP should not be held against him.

Kadri ranks 217th in PP points production despite being ranked 146th in PP icetime. The facts are he has yet to put in a full season of top 5 on 5 play, coupled with solid PP time.

He had soild PP production in 13-14 season. 17 points second on the team. However, His 5 on 5 play was below average at -11.

Last season he was ok on 5 on 5(relative to how bad the team was when Horachek took over), but he was not productive on the PP. Coupled with his non improving faceoff numbers we have a player that is not moving fwd, but is still trying to find himself in the NHL.

Leafs recognize the inconsistency in these bridge years. Coupled with the historical off ice problems, this is the reason why he was signed to a 1 year contract. Again I applaud the Leafs Mgt for making people in the organization earning their worth. As they have for Kadri who will be 25 when the season starts. The potential tag has a limited lifespan.

See this is just hilarious. You shift your standard from point totals to +/- for his 5v5 play to completely dodge the fact that outside of the first line who got the most ice-time, Kadri had the most ES points.

Just so everybody knows, 50 points in 78 games is upper-echelon 2nd line production

 

[TMLegend]

See this is just hilarious. You shift your standard from point totals to +/- for his 5v5 play to completely dodge the fact that outside of the first line who got the most ice-time, Kadri had the most ES points.

Just so everybody knows, 50 points in 78 games is upper-echelon 2nd line production

If you want to evaluate point production, points/60 is a far more accurate stat of a players worth. Nazem was 104th in P/60 in 2013-14 among forwards, which is an elite 2nd line rate, so it checks out in this case. Bozak was 72nd in 2013-14. Two years in a row Bozak has beat him in both raw production, and P/60 metrics. Maybe Bozak is underrated around here, and Kadri is overrated?

 

[Semantics]

If you want to evaluate point production, points/60 is a far more accurate stat of a players worth. Nazem was 104th in P/60 in 2013-14 among forwards, which is an adequate 2nd line rate. Bozak was 72nd in 2013-14. Two years in a row Bozak has beat him in both raw production, and P/60 metrics. Maybe Bozak is underrated around here, and Kadri is overrated?

Bozak played with Kessel.

Did you forget?

 

[Purity*]

If you want to evaluate point production, points/60 is a far more accurate stat of a players worth. Nazem was 104th in P/60 in 2013-14 among forwards, which is an upper-echelon 2nd line rate, so it checks out in this case. Bozak was 72nd in 2013-14. Two years in a row Bozak has beat him in both raw production, and P/60 metrics. Maybe Bozak is underrated around here, and Kadri is overrated?

Don't buy it. Bozak's numbers without Kessel are putrid. He's been boosted by Kessel his whole career. If Bozak isn't traded before the start of the season, you'll see firsthand Bozak's production dropping like a rock without his lifeline.

inb4 Kessel bashing.

 

[TMLegend]

Bozak played with Kessel.

Did you forget?

And? Why didn't Perron see his production rates sky-rocket when playing with Malkin? Do you wanna know where he ranks in P/60 last year? 215TH! A 3rd line rate for a player who is widely considered a good top-6 player. Maybe playing with Kessel isn't all it's made out to be. Just going off memory, I don't recall Bozak being involved often in the odd man rushes Kessel and JVR(and Lupul) thrived on. Maybe Kessel was a poor fit for Bozak. I really don't know, I'm just spitballing here. Kadri, Grabovski, Connolly have all had difficulty playing with Kessel, maybe he's just a extremely difficult player to play with if you're a center.

 

[Menzinger]

Bozak's numbers all around, with and without Kessel are pretty awful - even without factoring in all the favourable icetime he was undeservingly gifted. Not just scoring - his possession numbers in particular are horrifying. I don't see him anywhere near Kadri in terms of skill.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I didn't say that. I was just pointing out what the stats told me. If people get upset that Bozak's P/60 was better than Kadri than that's their prerogative.

Who's upset?

If you don't think Kessel's a factor there, I just think you're nuts.

I'll offer you a gentlemen's bet, Kadri's P/60 will bet better than Bozak this year.

What say you?

 

[Morbo]

And? Why didn't Perron see his production rates sky-rocket when playing with Malkin? Do you wanna know where he ranks in P/60 last year? 215TH! A 3rd line rate for a player who is widely considered a good top-6 player. Maybe playing with Kessel isn't all it's made out to be. Just going off memory, I don't recall Bozak being involved often in the odd man rushes Kessel and JVR(and Lupul) thrived on. Maybe Kessel was a poor fit for Bozak. I really don't know, I'm just spitballing here. Kadri, Grabovski, Connolly have all had difficulty playing with Kessel, maybe he's just a extremely difficult player to play with if you're a center.

this place kills me sometimes

 

[Purity*]

And? Why didn't Perron see his production rates sky-rocket when playing with Malkin? Do you wanna know where he ranks in P/60 last year? 215TH! A 3rd line rate for a player who is widely considered a good top-6 player. Maybe playing with Kessel isn't all it's made out to be. Just going off memory, I don't recall Bozak being involved often in the odd man rushes Kessel and JVR(and Lupul) thrived on. Maybe Kessel was a poor fit for Bozak. I really don't know, I'm just spitballing here. Kadri, Grabovski, Connolly have all had difficulty playing with Kessel, maybe he's just a extremely difficult player to play with if you're a center.

You remember when Bozak was put with JVR and Clarkson? That line didn't produce sweet **** all and was broken up after a short time because it didn't do anything. Oh, and there's the statistical numbers of Bozak away from Kessel, doesn't look good at all.

Spitball all you want but how about try and provide some evidence for these views rather than very weak anecdotes? Is it just some strange coincidence to you that Bozak, Lupul and JVR all had career years playing with Kessel? I'm sure you'll come up with something as to why it wasn't Kessel who was a major part of that.

Either way, this thread is getting majorly derailed. Brings me back to last year where every Kadri/Bozak thread turned into a huge debate. It's almost inevitable

 

[burpsalot]

Kadri has got the talent and the skills to be a great top-6 C in this league, supposedly he's working really hard this season because knows if he doesn't live up to his full potential this season under a great coach, he may never get that big pay-day. I truly believes he likes playing for the Leafs, he's a guy who likes the spotlight, and there's no spotlight like Toronto.

That being said, he's gotta take **** 100% serious this season. The skill and the talent is there, even his biggest detractors will admit that (well there's a couple particular posters around here that are so nonobjective that they will never talk about the good sides of his game). All this being said, when people call "linemates, coaches, usage, etc.." making excuses, that's just being plain stupid and not looking at things reasonably. Look at his linemates last year; Winnik, Komarov, Santorelli, Panik, Lupul, Clarkson, and so on and so forth. Not only is this a ridiculous carasoul of linemates that makes building chemistry very hard to do (which definitely helps production!), but these guys are all bottom-6 grinders with bottom-6 skillsets (except for perma-injured Lupul). The best overall line we had last year was a Winnik-Kadri-Santa line, and it's kind of funny how both those players completely fell off the map when they got traded.

The advanced stats about Kadri do not lie, he's easily our best forward at controlling the offensive zone and creating chances of cycling and making great plays in general. If he gets his head in the game and puts it all together, he can be a great center in this league.

Well, actually Winnik's pts/gm stayed the exact same at .43 & Kadri's dropped from .58 to .33 pts/gm following the Winnik trade. Santorelli nose dived from .51 to .18.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

See this is just hilarious. You shift your standard from point totals to +/- for his 5v5 play to completely dodge the fact that outside of the first line who got the most ice-time, Kadri had the most ES points.

Just so everybody knows, 50 points in 78 games is upper-echelon 2nd line production

You are missing the point, again. Did anyone complain that 18 of Kadri's 50 points in 13-14 came on the PP that season? He only had 32 points 5 on 5 this year while amassing a -12. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=96553

Now that slippery slope has changed to a focus on 5 on 5 stats and what ifs had he produced on the PP, because he could not produce on the PP, and more exucses. My point is he has yet to put together a full 82 game season of being good at both.

To be a true quality #1 or #2 Center. You need to be consistent, and show you are capable of excelling both 5 on 5, on the PP, faceoffs. Kadri will be 25 at the start of this season, this is not a prospect's age anymore. And we have yet to see this.

As I said earlier today, decent is a low standard to be happy about. 39 or 50 points is not upper echelon in anything especially on a Leafs team that gives up top 5 GA yearly. Surely you know the difference of playing for a team defence first team like LA, Doughty had 46 points last season. If you want upper echelon he is a better example given the team he plays for. Than Kadri's 39 points on an offence first, defence last team.

 

[TMLegend]

Who's upset?

If you don't think Kessel's a factor there, I just think you're nuts.

I'll offer you a gentlemen's bet, Kadri's P/60 will bet better than Bozak this year.

What say you?

I'll take it. Loser wears an avatar of the winner's choosing?

 

[Pookie]

Leafs Nation undervalues Kadri?

Last I checked, it was Shanahan and Dubas, armed with stats... and the full picture... that handed Kadri the Try Out contract.

I've got no reason to doubt their reasons.

Good luck to Kadri... here or somewhere else.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Don't buy it. Bozak's numbers without Kessel are putrid. He's been boosted by Kessel his whole career. If Bozak isn't traded before the start of the season, you'll see firsthand Bozak's production dropping like a rock without his lifeline.

inb4 Kessel bashing.

a serious question
I heard somewhere that Bozak's numbers before Kessel - are roughly his first season and a bit when he wasn't playing with Phil. so are Bozak's numbers sans Phil indicative of his entire career - or is it just that brief period of time?

thanks

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'll take it. Loser wears an avatar of the winner's choosing?

Meh, I'm not really into avatars, I'll settle for bragging rights. Deal?

 

[TMLegend]

Meh, I'm not really into avatars, I'll settle for bragging rights. Deal?

Fine.

 

[Purity*]

You are missing the point, again. Did anyone complain that 18 of Kadri's 50 points in 13-14 came on the PP that season? He only had 32 points 5 on 5 this year while amassing a -12. http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=96553

Now that slippery slope has changed to a focus on 5 on 5 stats and what ifs had he produced on the PP, because he could not produce on the PP, and more exucses. My point is he has yet to put together a full 82 game season of being good at both.

To be a true quality #1 or #2 Center. You need to be consistent, and show you are capable of excelling both 5 on 5, on the PP, faceoffs. Kadri will be 25 at the start of this season, this is not a prospect's age anymore. And we have yet to see this.

As I said earlier today, decent is a low standard to be happy about. 39 or 50 points is not upper echelon in anything especially on a Leafs team that gives up top 5 GA yearly. Surely you know the difference of playing for a team defence first team like LA, Doughty had 46 points last season. If you want upper echelon he is a better example given the team he plays for. Than Kadri's 39 points on an offence first, defence last team.

Oh cool story bro do points on the PP not count anymore or what?

Also your facts are a little wrong (as per usual). He had 28 ES points this year and 31 ES points the year before.

His ES production in 13-14 was most certainly in the upper echelon of 2nd line producers. Let's take a look here shall we?

Jeff Carter : 29 ES points

Brandon Dubinsky : 32 ES points

Brandon Saad : 32 ES points

Zach Parise : 28 ES points

Ryan O'Reilly : 38 ES points

Paul Stastny : 37 ES points

Tomas Tatar : 30 ES points

Kadri's numbers match up perfectly with high-end 2nd liners around the league, and this is playing with a commonly injured-Lupul and bottom-6'ers.

Go ahead and throw your +/- stats around cause they suit your agenda, and go ahead and keep pretending that there aren't 5 other skaters on the ice with him. You must have a real high opinion of Jeff Schultz too and a very low opinion of Alexander Ovechkin.

Fine.

I'll do the avatar bet. I'll rock a Bozak avatar NP if I lose.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Fine.

OK cool, so the bet is who will have the better P/60, I have Kadri, you have Bozak. I think I'm a huge favorite here, you never know though I suppose.

If you're interested, I'll offer several other bets. I'd be willing to bet Kadri over Bozak in total goals, assists or points as well.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Meh, I'm not really into avatars, I'll settle for bragging rights. Deal?

Fine.

I acknowledge your bet.

so y'all are betting for Bragging rights that Hanfin's claim that Bozak's p/60 numbers will be better than Kadri's. this should be interesting!

 

[burpsalot]

I acknowledge your bet.

so y'all are betting for Bragging rights that Hanfin's claim that Bozak's p/60 numbers will be better than Kadri's. this should be interesting!

This place is getting out of hand.

 

[Daisy Jane]

This place is getting out of hand.

this is why you sit back, and just let the drama happen all around you whilst you enjoy your popcorn.

 

[Nithoniniel]

this is why you sit back, and just let the drama happen all around you whilst you enjoy your popcorn.

I don't know, eating popcorn every time there's some drama around here is probably not very healthy.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Oh cool story bro do points on the PP not count anymore or what?

Also your facts are a little wrong (as per usual). He had 28 ES points this year and 31 ES points the year before.

His ES production in 13-14 was most certainly in the upper echelon of 2nd line producers. Let's take a look here shall we?

Jeff Carter : 29 ES points

Brandon Dubinsky : 32 ES points

Brandon Saad : 32 ES points

Zach Parise : 28 ES points

Ryan O'Reilly : 38 ES points

Paul Stastny : 37 ES points

Tomas Tatar : 30 ES points

Kadri's numbers match up perfectly with high-end 2nd liners around the league, and this is playing with a commonly injured-Lupul and bottom-6'ers.

Go ahead and throw your +/- stats around cause they suit your agenda, and go ahead and keep pretending that there aren't 5 other skaters on the ice with him. You must have a real high opinion of Jeff Schultz too and a very low opinion of Alexander Ovechkin.



I'll do the avatar bet. I'll rock a Bozak avatar NP if I lose.

Do you ever address the specific points in a post? Kadri was 2nd with 18 PP points in the 13-14 season to Kessel. Did anyone complain about his PP production then? That was the point, and why I made the case he has yet to put on full 82 season together to be called upper echelon as you stated he was.

Furthermore you left someone out in 5 on 5 production in with 36, 5 on 5 points in only 58 games played in 2013-14 when 5 on 5 production mattered less. He would have been 2nd on that upper echelon list of yours. I Wonder why?

 

[Gabriel426]

Going to be interesting watching the bet between Kadri and Boxak unfold. Just wondering, what if Bozak gets traded, would this bet be still on?