Nazem Kadri, or Phil Kessel?

[Purity*]

How long have you been posting, defending Bozak while he has played for a losing team?

Well-played

The double-standard on this board is sometimes borderline insanity.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

Throwing skilled individuals together wearing the same jersey doesn't always make for a good team. See the pre cap Rangers sign every big name UFA.
It might just be possible that as a collection these players aren't a good team. It just might be.

Wouldn't you like to see what another coach can do for the rest of this season? The way I see it, it couldn't hurt.

If we don't see any major improvements, then we know the issue is pervasive.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

How long have you been posting, defending Bozak while he has played for a losing team?

Is Kadri not a first rd pick(top 10, 7th overall) who some on this board consider as the best center on this team? While Ryan Johansen has led the Blue Jackets to the playoffs at age 21, we are still waiting for Kadri to do this. Sooner than later the young or prospect tag wears off. Who slow a player develops matters.

And what we are left with, is a flawed good player on a bad team. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

 

[Purity*]

Is Kadri not a first rd pick who some on this board consider as the best center on this team? While Ryan Johansen has led the Blue Jackets to the playoffs at age 21, we are still waiting for Kadri to do this. Sooner than later the young tag wears off.

Not the first time you used Ryan Johansen for a red herring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies, you need to give this a serious read.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Not the first time you used Ryan Johansen for a red herring

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies, you need to give this a serious read.

Hit a nerve? Or do you want to ignore why other high picks only picked 3 spots higher have quicker and better results.

Maybe it does not register, Kadri just isn't that good. The best on a bad team rarely is. Address the posts and stop changing topics.

 

[Purity*]

Hit a nerve? Or do you want to ignore why other high picks only picked 3 spots higher have quicker and better results.

Maybe it does not register, Kadri just isn't that good. The best on a bad team rarely is. Address the posts and stop changing topics.

Nope, this is great actually. He's developed into a good 2nd line center which is more than reasonable for a 7th OA pick. It's too bad he couldn't turn into Anze Kopitar but hey, you don't win them all. At 7th spot in that draft, we couldn't have picked a better player. Bullseye pick for Burkie.

Now what exactly haven't I addressed? You still really ought to give that wikipedia article a read, it would do wonders for helping your arguing tactics.

 

[Menzinger]

Hit a nerve? Or do you want to ignore why other high picks only picked 3 spots higher have quicker and better results.

Maybe it does not register, Kadri just isn't that good. The best on a bad team rarely is. Address the posts and stop changing topics.

You'd have a point if his stats only lined up favorably with his team mates - which isn't the case. His stats, especially in terms of possession and 5v5 scoring rates, he's among the higher percentile of centres in the league.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Nope, this is great actually. He's developed into a good 2nd line center which is more than reasonable for a 7th OA pick. It's too bad he couldn't turn into Anze Kopitar but hey, you don't win them all. At 7th spot in that draft, we couldn't have picked a better player. Bullseye pick for Burkie.

Now what exactly haven't I addressed? You still really ought to give that wikipedia article a read, it would do wonders for helping your arguing tactics.

Based on what? How would he compare on the better teams? You seem to want to make excuses for players while avoiding the truth. Kadri is nowhere the impact player needed that will influence a team in making the playoffs.

Again, look at an example of Ryan Johansen, a player only picked 3 spots lower than Kadri. He was 21 and led the Blue Jackets to the playoffs. We are still waiting on Kadri to do this.

Now if he can't, as I suggested, we need to move to players that will. Understand this concept?

Since you are into definitions, I have one for you. Read carefully.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(making_excuses)

 

[Purity*]

Based on what? How would he compare on the better teams? You seem to want to make excuses for players while avoiding the truth. Kadri is nowhere the impact player needed that will influence a team in making the playoffs.

Again, look at an example of Ryan Johansen, a player only picked 3 spots lower than Kadri. He was 21 and led the Blue Jackets to the playoffs. We are still waiting on Kadri to do this.

Now if he can't, as I suggested, we need to move to players that will. Understand this concept?

Since you are into definitions, I have one for you. Read carefully.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(making_excuses)

What the flying **** does Ryan Johansen have to do with Nazem kadri? Red Herring man, get over it... Entirely different players in different drafts going to different teams drafted in different spots. Again, Kadri was a bullseye pick by Burke, there's literally no better player he could have drafted at 7th spot. I don't need to make ANY excuses, it is what it is.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You'd have a point if his stats only lined up favorably with his team mates - which isn't the case. His stats, especially in terms of possession and 5v5 scoring rates, he's among the higher percentile of centres in the league.

What the flying **** does Ryan Johansen have to do with Nazem kadri? Red Herring man, get over it... Entirely different players in different drafts going to different teams drafted in different spots. Again, Kadri was a bullseye pick by Burke, there's literally no better player he could have drafted at 7th spot. I don't need to make ANY excuses, it is what it is.

When it is all said and done. You can cherry pick stats to make cases for players. I can focus on stats that can make cases against Kadri. Ie GA per 60. 3.07 a game! Face off % 46.

What we can't get away from, is Kadri is a part of this team's flawed core. And if this team does not make the playoffs again, the core rightfully needs to be dismantled.

Just as I said for Grabovski years ago, he was only a #2C on a non playoff team. I was proven right. We need better players. Period. This core which Kadri next year will be 25, has run out of chances.

It's painful to see players like Johansen help their teams make the playoffs while our high picks do not.

 

[Purity*]

When it is all said and done. You can cherry pick stats to make cases for players. I can focus on stats that can make cases against Kadri. Ie GA per 60. 3.07 a game! Face off % 46.

What we can't get away from, is Kadri is a part of this team's flawed core. And if this team does not make the playoffs again, the core rightfully needs to be dismantled.

Just as I said for Grabovski years ago, he was only a #2C on a non playoff team. I was proven right. We need better players. Period. This core which Kadri next year will be 25, has run out of chances.

Kadri ain't part of this core. The upcoming contract he's getting is what will make him a part of this core. Bozak is the core center on the Leafs and we've done nothing but lose with him at the helm.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Kadri ain't part of this core. The upcoming contract he's getting is what will make him a part of this core. Bozak is the core center on the Leafs and we've done nothing but lose with him at the helm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationa...making_excuses)

 

[TeamBester]

Is Kadri not a first rd pick(top 10, 7th overall) who some on this board consider as the best center on this team? While Ryan Johansen has led the Blue Jackets to the playoffs at age 21, we are still waiting for Kadri to do this. Sooner than later the young or prospect tag wears off. Who slow a player develops matters.

And what we are left with, is a flawed good player on a bad team. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

What does this have to do with what I quoted and responded to?

And you think this is a valid argument in any case? Come on... this is terrible.

 

[TeamBester]

When it is all said and done. You can cherry pick stats to make cases for players. I can focus on stats that can make cases against Kadri. Ie GA per 60. 3.07 a game! Face off % 46.

What we can't get away from, is Kadri is a part of this team's flawed core. And if this team does not make the playoffs again, the core rightfully needs to be dismantled.

Just as I said for Grabovski years ago, he was only a #2C on a non playoff team. I was proven right. We need better players. Period. This core which Kadri next year will be 25, has run out of chances.

It's painful to see players like Johansen help their teams make the playoffs while our high picks do not.

So all the years/money/development that has been put into Kadri should be thrown out the window just before he hits his prime?

 

[Trapper]

Wouldn't you like to see what another coach can do for the rest of this season? The way I see it, it couldn't hurt.

If we don't see any major improvements, then we know the issue is pervasive.

I don't believe in the core so for me personally, no. They might play well for a while due to shame (like the Nashville 9-2 loss) but I believe they will revert back to what they know and what they are once again fooling management into thinking the team is better than they are.
If a coaching change happens, so be it, but I'm waiting for certain players time to be over. I might be waiting 5-7 more years but I've waiting this long.
Now I'm also ok with riding the season out with everyone and let the standings fall where they may. If a plan is in place for a Babcock (or other) let him weed out those players that don't compete to the level of what Shanny/Dubas/Hunter expect regardless of the name on the back of the Jersey.
I have my own ideas on who should go but it doesn't make anyone else wrong not to share them.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

What does this have to do with what I quoted and responded to?

And you think this is a valid argument in any case? Come on... this is terrible.

Well it doesn't make sense, if one wants to ignore how a 24 year young man, a top 7 pick has yet to impact this team like other similar high picks like Johansen at top 4. I know we would rather make excuses for this core and focus on players not related to this thread. But Be consistent if you are going to hold this core to account. Again, I am not the one claiming Kadri is the team's best center. If he is, and we are out of the playoffs again. Maybe we need better a better center than Kadri. Just as we did when we had Grabovski. We know how that turned out.

 

[Hockey Talker29]

When it is all said and done. You can cherry pick stats to make cases for players. I can focus on stats that can make cases against Kadri. Ie GA per 60. 3.07 a game! Face off % 46.

What we can't get away from, is Kadri is a part of this team's flawed core. And if this team does not make the playoffs again, the core rightfully needs to be dismantled.

Just as I said for Grabovski years ago, he was only a #2C on a non playoff team. I was proven right. We need better players. Period. This core which Kadri next year will be 25, has run out of chances.

It's painful to see players like Johansen help their teams make the playoffs while our high picks do not.

So, it's Kadri's fault that a player drafted 4th overall is better than him, even though he was drafted 7th overall? Isn't that how the draft works? Better players go earlier.

Or is it the Leafs fault that they took Kadri, instead of Johansen? (I'm aware that this would be impossible. Just want to make sure that you also see that.)

Kadri is nowhere near a problem. In fact, he's probably the best value player on the roster at a $2.9m cap hit.

The core certainly needs to be altered. But that starts at the very top. Kessel, Clarkson, Lupul, and Phaneuf. The highest paid players on the team.

We need a 1st line center with two-way ability. I'd suggest dealing Bozak and Franson for O'Reilly.

I think that one move could pay significant dividends short and long term.

Then evaluate how the team does the rest of the way, and make moves accordingly in the offseason.

 

[Menzinger]

When it is all said and done. You can cherry pick stats to make cases for players. I can focus on stats that can make cases against Kadri. Ie GA per 60. 3.07 a game! Face off % 46.

What we can't get away from, is Kadri is a part of this team's flawed core. And if this team does not make the playoffs again, the core rightfully needs to be dismantled.

Just as I said for Grabovski years ago, he was only a #2C on a non playoff team. I was proven right. We need better players. Period. This core which Kadri next year will be 25, has run out of chances.

It's painful to see players like Johansen help their teams make the playoffs while our high picks do not.

It's not cherry picking, when the majority of important stats favor the player in question: here's an article with some very easy to read data visualizations:
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2014/12/20/nazem-kadri-first-line-material/

It doesn't make much sense to assume that just because a team is bad, that every single player on it isn't worth keeping. Grabovski is playing a key role on the Islander's drive to the playoffs - in particular he's one of their top possession players. The Leafs would be much better off if he was still on the team.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'm closing this thread as it has run its course, it's completely derailed from the OP and there has been enough discussion about the topic.