Nazem Kadri all purpose thread

[ALEXJD93]

Bozak is the better player right now, he has progressed to the point he is a very good Center on any team, there are no buts or ifs about it to most reasonable posters.

Other than 50 modest points in 78 games, Kadri's only selling point. He is not as good at Center as for all the positive things Bozak does.

Kadri is in his 5th year as a pro, you may want to hope and think why it is taking him so long to figure it out, if ever. He has a long list of things he needs to do become as trustworthy to his coaches as Bozak has become.

We all know this, so let's stop pretending he is a 19 or 20 year old propect. Maybe he doesn't have the skillset to become an all around center, maybe he is a a scorer, a one dimensional fwd. But one thing is for sure, he needs to start showing progression to become as good a player as Bozak has become. At 24 this season, this may be his last chance.

You don't think a player drafted 7th overall 5 years ago should be a polished NHL'er by now?

Bozak didn't even enter the league until he was 24, good thing Burke didn't "give up on him" after his first full season with the Leafs where he had 32 points in 82 games with top line ES & PP minutes (although I wish he did).

 

[IronCow]

Bozak didn't even enter the league until he was 24, good thing Burke didn't "give up on him" after his first full season with the Leafs where he had 32 points in 82 games with top line ES & PP minutes (although I wish he did).

I think it's less about how good or bad Bozak was several years ago, and more about how valuable he is to the team right now.

He's no Getzlaff or Toews, but we sure struggle without him in many areas.

 

[ALEXJD93]

I think it's less about how good or bad Bozak was several years ago, and more about how valuable he is to the team right now.

He's no Getzlaff or Toews, but we sure struggle without him in many areas.

His point was that he is ready to give up on Kadri at age 24 and I said consider Bozak didn't even enter the league until that age and still fared worse. No reason to say "I'd be ready to give up on Kadri after this year". Still tons of potential there, not to mention an already very talented player.

 

[IronCow]

His point was that he is ready to give up on Kadri at age 24 when Bozak didn't even enter the league until then and still fared worse. No reason to say "I'd be ready to give up on Kadri after this year"

I agree with that... Kadri is coming along fine IMO.

His all around game will get there with time and experience.

I hope Kadri and the 2nd line give the top line a real run for their money this season.

 

[agropop]

Kadri is a better centre, flat out.

Neither may be true 1c's, but Bozak is not our 'best option' right now.

Kadri would put up far better numbers given the minutes and linemates, the first line as a whole would put up better offensive, possession, and consequently defensive numbers by not having to defend as often. Simply put, our top line would be a more dangerous line with Kadri replacing Bozak.

 

[IronCow]

Kadri is a better centre, flat out.

Neither may be true 1c's, but Bozak is not our 'best option' right now.

Kadri would put up far better numbers given the minutes and linemates, the first line as a whole would put up better offensive, possession, and consequently defensive numbers by not having to defend as often. Simply put, our top line would be a more dangerous line with Kadri replacing Bozak.

Personally I thought the first line looked disjointed with Kadri on it

 

[agropop]

Personally I thought the first line looked disjointed with Kadri on it

Personally, I think they've been a disaster with Bozak.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Personally, I think they've been a disaster with Bozak.

They One of the most productive lines in the NHL and With Bozak centering them they were a collective plus 5 on 5 last season on a negative team.

Glad to see your expectations have not changed.

Bozak + On 60 + .36
Bozak - On 60 - .42

 

[The Winter Soldier]

False. On any real contender he's a 3C. The poll on the main board shows almost everyone rather takes Kadri.



And there you go again with your personal bias clouding you from making any respectable argument. You like to flaunt Bozak's only good offensive season around for all your arguments yet you completely ignore Kadri's great success in his shortened season.



Cool story bro, he just finished his 1st full season in the NHL last year. He played 50 NHL games in 2 years from on terrible teams with Ronnie Wilson forcing him on the wing where he doesn't belong. Stop twisting the narrative to suit your argument, it doesn't work that way.



It took Claude Giroux over 120 games to get himself figured out at NHL level. It took Datsyuk a long time as well, Backes is another. Those are just at the top of my head. Tons of great players need 100-200+ NHL games to figure their game out. And it took your precious Bozak 4+ years to finally put up good offensive numbers despite playing with world-class offensive talent (Including 2 point-per game wingers in one year).


Maybe try making an argument without using dishonest tactics.

Not much here for me to respond to. Just a lot of opinion here that has little to do with the discussion.

 

[FifthLine]

Personally, I think they've been a disaster with Bozak.

Me personally, I don't think Bozak is great obviously, but I don't see how you can say that line has been a disaster with Bozak on it.

Side note, I'm not sure what everyone is so up in arms about. Bozak and Kadri are both good centres, obviously Kadri has a higher ceiling. Kadri and Kessel has been ok, but they both like to control the puck and both are weak defensively. Chemistry wise, it makes more sense to have Bozak with Kessel and Kadri on the 2nd unit. Plus it helps give us scoring depth.

 

[FifthLine]

Is this the new flavor of the month topic? Bozak vs Kadri? I don't understand why we always have to pick sides when it comes to players on our team. Both help our team, thats all people should care about.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

There is not much doubt in my mind that Kadri SHOULD end up being the better offensive (read first line) center on this team within the next two years. That being said, I still see the Leafs using a top six mentality, spreading the wealth.

The Leafs would be cap strung with what many here would consider a bonafide 1c between Kessel and JVR. They would have zero money for depth

Both players turned pro a year apart. In NHL games they are only separated by a season and a 1/4 of games.

Kadri averages 52 points, Bozak 51 points at the NHL.

The difference is not much, but Bozak is a much more rounded player.

The argument can be compared would you rather have Ribeiro or Bergeron as Centers?

Now both are not these players, but Bergeron despite being a less offensive talent than Ribeiro wins more games. I will agree Kadri may have more points than Bozak, though I am not 100% convinced of this, as Bozak would have finished 2nd on the team last year in scoring had he not been hurt with 69. I would surmise we are better off with more Bergeron type players than Ribeiro's.

I do agree that our Cap has limited us with signing UFA's, so it looks like we may have to draft a top 6, 2 way Center. A reason why I liked Dylan Larkin last draft.

 

[agropop]

Both players turned pro a year apart. In NHL games they are only separated by a season and a 1/4 of games.

Kadri averages 52 points, Bozak 51 points at the NHL.

The difference is not much, but Bozak is a much more rounded player.

The argument can be compared would you rather have Ribeiro or Bergeron as Centers?

Now both are not these players, but Bergeron despite being a less offensive talent than Ribeiro wins more games. I will agree Kadri may have more points than Bozak, though I am not 100% convinced of this, as Bozak would have finished 2nd on the team last year in scoring had he not been hurt with 69. I would surmise we are better off with more Bergeron type players than Ribeiro's.

I do agree that our Cap has limited us with signing UFA's, so it looks like we may have to draft a top 6, 2 way Center. A reason why I liked Dylan Larkin last draft.

Bozak is nothing like Bergeron.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Bozak is nothing like Bergeron.

No one said he was, but it does illustrate the type of player you need to win. Bergeron > Ribeiro

Too much emphasis on modest individual points for some players here.

But saying that here are more stats that counter your claim of Bozak with Kessel and JVR were a disaster.

When Bozak was not on the ice.

Leafs

GF Off 60 1.97
GF On 60 3.70

Difference of + 1.73 GF per 60 when Bozak was on the ice to the team average.

Best on the team.

 

[TeamBester]

No one said he was, but it does illustrate the type of player you need to win. Bergeron > Ribeiro

Too much emphasis on modest individual points for some players here.

But saying that here are more stats that counter your claim of Bozak with Kessel and JVR were a disaster.

When Bozak was not on the ice.

Leafs

GF Off 60 1.97
GF On 60 3.70

Difference of + 1.73 GF per 60 when Bozak was on the ice to the team average.

Best on the team.

Well he did play with the two best goal scorers.

 

[TeamBester]

And the whole "Kadri better figure it out by 24" argument is total crap.

Edit: Any Bozak fan should know this.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Well he did play with the two best goal scorers.

No one is discounting this, but what people who keep saying all too common refrain, fail to realize, Bozak beat both his teammates in GF per 60 and the differential of GF per 60 - GF off 60. Surely he is doing something right to better his more talented teammates. The notion Bozak is a fire hydrant to 2 stars doesn't cut it when you use the eye test and when you look at the advanced stats.

If not then explain how Bozak did ended up bettering his teammates in both these stats?

 

[TeamBester]

No one is discounting this, but what people who keep saying all too common refrain, fail to realize, Bozak beat both his teammates in GF per 60 and the differential of GF per 60 - GF off 60. Surely he is doing something right to better his more talented teammates. The notion Bozak is a fire hydrant to 2 stars doesn't cut it when you use the eye test and when you look at the advanced stats.

If not then explain how Bozak did ended up bettering his teammates in both these stats?

Does this include 4 on 4 play? How well did they produce 4 on 4? If it was much better, then this would skew JVR's and Kessel's GF/60, because, of course Bozak would benefit from this since he would have to be on the ice.

Or is this just 5 on 5?

 

[Nithoniniel]

Kadri is a better centre, flat out.

Neither may be true 1c's, but Bozak is not our 'best option' right now.

Kadri would put up far better numbers given the minutes and linemates, the first line as a whole would put up better offensive, possession, and consequently defensive numbers by not having to defend as often. Simply put, our top line would be a more dangerous line with Kadri replacing Bozak.

Kadri might put up better numbers, but has not done so in the (few and short) chances he's got. He's not made it impossible to keep him down by outplaying his position. He's been an OK #2C overall, and that's fine. That's achievement. But for him to force himself up, he'd have to do a Turris. Make it abundantly clear that he's way too good for the position.

Everything is also not about making the first line as effective as possible. Certainly not about making the first line get as much points as possible, and absolutely not about getting the #1C that gets the most points.

It's Team -> Line -> Player

The best use of assets for team success is making sure we don't have all our offense driving players on the same line. The biggest asset Kadri has is that he drives offense, he is creative and can work with what his wingers give him. He's a guy you want to have the puck on your stick. We have one other player like that and that's Kessel. Put them on the same line and they step on each others toes.

Our first line is built around the connection that JVR and Kessel has. Our center doesn't need to take much more room, offensively speaking. He needs to connect them, complement them. This speaks to Bozaks abilities very well.

Kadri likes to slow things down, control pace and the flow of the game. He likes to dictate things, just like Kessel does albeit Phil likes to do it while playing an up-tempo style.

Good teams make sure to be a scoring threat across several lines, and our best way to achieve this is to put a player like Kessel or Kadri on a line each. I firmly believe that the end result of that would be better, we would get the most out of our assets that way.

For as much as people like to point at Kadri and say "Think what he could do with more of an opportunity", don't forget that as things are the second line is his. The line is built around him, he dictates tempo and flow on his terms. On the first line, he'd stand in Kessels shadow making the moves he perceives that Phil wants.

Sorry for the incoherent rant, it's late.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Kadri might put up better numbers, but has not done so in the (few and short) chances he's got. He's not made it impossible to keep him down by outplaying his position. He's been an OK #2C overall, and that's fine. That's achievement. But for him to force himself up, he'd have to do a Turris. Make it abundantly clear that he's way too good for the position.

Everything is also not about making the first line as effective as possible. Certainly not about making the first line get as much points as possible, and absolutely not about getting the #1C that gets the most points.

It's Team -> Line -> Player

The best use of assets for team success is making sure we don't have all our offense driving players on the same line. The biggest asset Kadri has is that he drives offense, he is creative and can work with what his wingers give him. He's a guy you want to have the puck on your stick. We have one other player like that and that's Kessel. Put them on the same line and they step on each others toes.

Our first line is built around the connection that JVR and Kessel has. Our center doesn't need to take much more room, offensively speaking. He needs to connect them, complement them. This speaks to Bozaks abilities very well.

Kadri likes to slow things down, control pace and the flow of the game. He likes to dictate things, just like Kessel does albeit Phil likes to do it while playing an up-tempo style.

Good teams make sure to be a scoring threat across several lines, and our best way to achieve this is to put a player like Kessel or Kadri on a line each. I firmly believe that the end result of that would be better, we would get the most out of our assets that way.

For as much as people like to point at Kadri and say "Think what he could do with more of an opportunity", don't forget that as things are the second line is his. The line is built around him, he dictates tempo and flow on his terms. On the first line, he'd stand in Kessels shadow making the moves he perceives that Phil wants.

Sorry for the incoherent rant, it's late.

Your replies are always worth reading, however, I agree. It is late, this topic has been talked to death. I only respond when I read the Bozak/Kessel/JVR was a disaster last year. Just the silliest thing I have read all summer.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Your replies are always worth reading, however, I agree. It is late, this topic has been talked to death. I only respond when I read the Bozak/Kessel/JVR was a disaster last year. Just the silliest thing I have read all summer.

On that I agree completely.

 

[diceman934]

It comes down to winning. ..we will not win a thing by keeping the same very flawed line together.

That line requires a player who can aid the D man in gaining possession of the puck in the D zone as well as in the O Zone in creating battles for the puck and winning some of them. He is a stick checking center . The people who call him smart are wrong as he does not track the puck well at all and this causes sustained pressure against and little pressure in the o zone. His down low coverage is weak and when he does get the puck he lacks the ability to make a quick read and make a quick good decision with the puck. Watch when he does not have the puck and his lack of puck support.

 

[Bill Waters*]

No one said he was, but it does illustrate the type of player you need to win. Bergeron > Ribeiro

Too much emphasis on modest individual points for some players here.

But saying that here are more stats that counter your claim of Bozak with Kessel and JVR were a disaster.

When Bozak was not on the ice.

Leafs

GF Off 60 1.97
GF On 60 3.70

Difference of + 1.73 GF per 60 when Bozak was on the ice to the team average.

Best on the team.

Bozak is to Bergeron what Kadri (skating-wise) is to Gretzky (skating-wise).


[do not ask me what this reference is about, its from a previous discussion, in a long archive of disscusions on Kadri contra Bozak]

 

[LV*]

So what if Kadri doesnt become a #1C by 24? Lol... not everyone you draft has to be a #1

 

[agropop]

Kadri might put up better numbers, but has not done so in the (few and short) chances he's got. He's not made it impossible to keep him down by outplaying his position. He's been an OK #2C overall, and that's fine. That's achievement. But for him to force himself up, he'd have to do a Turris. Make it abundantly clear that he's way too good for the position.

Everything is also not about making the first line as effective as possible. Certainly not about making the first line get as much points as possible, and absolutely not about getting the #1C that gets the most points.

It's Team -> Line -> Player

The best use of assets for team success is making sure we don't have all our offense driving players on the same line. The biggest asset Kadri has is that he drives offense, he is creative and can work with what his wingers give him. He's a guy you want to have the puck on your stick. We have one other player like that and that's Kessel. Put them on the same line and they step on each others toes.

Our first line is built around the connection that JVR and Kessel has. Our center doesn't need to take much more room, offensively speaking. He needs to connect them, complement them. This speaks to Bozaks abilities very well.

Kadri likes to slow things down, control pace and the flow of the game. He likes to dictate things, just like Kessel does albeit Phil likes to do it while playing an up-tempo style.

Good teams make sure to be a scoring threat across several lines, and our best way to achieve this is to put a player like Kessel or Kadri on a line each. I firmly believe that the end result of that would be better, we would get the most out of our assets that way.

For as much as people like to point at Kadri and say "Think what he could do with more of an opportunity", don't forget that as things are the second line is his. The line is built around him, he dictates tempo and flow on his terms. On the first line, he'd stand in Kessels shadow making the moves he perceives that Phil wants.

Sorry for the incoherent rant, it's late.

Having your best players have the puck as often as possible is best for the team. Having Kessel spend less time in the defensive zone where he's terrible and more time in the offensive zone where he's elite, is for the good of the team.

A top line that can finish more shifts in the offensive end leaves more offensive zone face offs for the next line. That's the difference between our 2c getting an ozone start or McClement getting a Dzone start. The benefit of improving the top line's possession numbers is providing easier minutes for the rest of the team. When our top line leaves nothing but Dzone face offs, then the rest of the team has to start at the bottom of the mountain again and everyone works harder including or especially the goalies.

Having a top line that no one wants to share the puck with is our teams largest flaw, it taxes a squad that really doesn't have the horses to absorb it.

Whatever 'success' you think the first line had last year was built on cheat-retreat %driven pond hockey, more often than not our goalie was getting peppered with these guys running around and the next shift had to clean up afterwards. You wonder why Bozak takes so many Dzone draws and McClement is logging 18 mins a night, it's because we can't pass the bloody red line.