Nazem Kadri all purpose thread

[leafstilldeath*]

Being on the first line isn't a reward, it's a position on the team that needs to be filled with the player who can best play the role, while also taking team balance into consideration.

And you are absolutely correct! I rattle my keyboard when someone suggests that Bozak is better than Kadri just because he centers the first line. That to me is a baseless claim without context

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Kadri was learning in the minors, and let's not pretend he was ready regardless of how many posters were penciling him into the line up 4 years ago.

Who would you have put with Kessel?

As far as coaches and Kadri? Yes, we know he's been called out by his coaches, and during the outdoor game everyone saw Carlyle yelling at him. I'm sure he frustrates coaches with the same issues we've read about. For the most part it is puck management, and that will improve with experience. He's just not that good on the defensive side of the puck, but he's always been offensively gifted so didn't have to worry about defense.

Give him time and if he's smart enough he'll overcome those deficiencies. Kessel, while weak defensively, has improved over the past few seasons. Backing checking and stripping the puck from a few players doesn't make you a good defensive player, it just is part of the game.

First, I do not prefer Kadri with Kessel on the 1st line evenstrength if that means Bozak is the 2C as I do not have any confidence in Bozak to produce without Kessel.

Second, I would however like to see Kadri on the 1st PP unit as the best skilled players should be loaded on the powerplay.

Third, Defense can be thought offensive flare and playmaking skills is something your either have or you don't. Kadri has it.

Fourth, Leafs do not and I mean DO NOT have a good defensive forward. Anybody that claims we have one is only fooling him/herself. The GA stats is reflective of it.

Fifth, Coaches yell at everyone. Did you see Bylsma getting into it with Crosby? DId you see Eakins yelling at Hall? They must have "attitude issues" eh?

Finally, when someone claims Bozak is better than Kadri cherry picking a few stats and not using context, it is like people claiming Clarkson had good possession numbers and good offensive output with Devils without context that Clarkson mostly played with Kovy.

 

[jughead42*]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzpvtTIJJEU

Kadri sucks really?..give your head a shake there buddy...the highlight above is just one of several you can easily find on Kadri that show what kind of player he is capable of being..its funny enough this is being debated now..but once Kadri reaches his potential or even close to it...comparing him to Bozak will become laughable

Oh, you're right. When Kadri reaches his potential he's going to be awesome I'm sure. The problem is he hasn't had enough time to adjust to the league, build his man strength and develop chemistry with his teammates. He's only 24 years old in a few weeks, and beginning his fifth season as a pro. He's too young to be criticized for not living up to his expectations, guys in his draft year like Tavares, Duchene and O Reilly are in the same boat. Oh wait, you mean they aren't prospects any more, they are contributing? So what's Kadri's excuse again? Or at least which one are we going to use this year now that he's not "adjusting to the league and building his strength"? I know, Kadri isn't living up to expectations because our coach sucks. That sounds like it might buy him another year of substandard effort without being held accountable. Good idea.

 

[ULF_55]

And you are absolutely correct! I rattle my keyboard when someone suggests that Bozak is better than Kadri just because he centers the first line. That to me is a baseless claim without context

Aren't many claims about Player A being better than Player B for the most part subjective and in the eyes of the beholder. Is Seguin better than Kessel? Seguin was 4th. leading scorer this year, Kessel 6th.

Unless you can list objective stats which clearly show some superior results.

Let's not forget that players can improve, Kessel continues to improve so it isn't like if you're better than 2011 Kessel, that you're better than 2014 Kessel.

Kadri has completed 4 pro seasons of hockey and should be better than when he had completed 3 seasons of pro hockey.

Bozak and van Riemsdyk have completed 5 pro seasons of hockey and should be better than when they had completed 4 seasons of pro hockey.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Without a solid #1C we probably need to match up with three strong centers. Three #2C, each with a purpose and wingers that complement their playing style and purpose. In that scenario, there's room for both Bozak and Kadri.

At this point Bozak is the better player, he's a player that has progressed season to season.

To be fair Kadri is heading into his 5th year as a pro at 24. If he can show he can improve as Tyler has then I would agree with you. I think Kadri is closer to fighting off Holland for the #2 Center position than actually becoming our best center this year.

This is the reality of how much we need to draft a quality 2 way center to compliment Bozak.

 

[ULF_55]

First, I do not prefer Kadri with Kessel on the 1st line evenstrength if that means Bozak is the 2C as I do not have any confidence in Bozak to produce without Kessel.

That is just your opinion.

My opinion is that Bozak can be effective on any line, however realistically speaking the only evidence we have is that he is effective on the first line.

I've seen many suggest Kadri needs better linemates to produce better results, how is that any different than saying Bozak produces better results with Kessel than he would with a lessor player?

Wouldn't better linemates help produce better results for most players?

Kulemin and McClement versus Kulemin and Kadri?

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Aren't many claims about Player A being better than Player B for the most part subjective and in the eyes of the beholder. Is Seguin better than Kessel? Seguin was 4th. leading scorer this year, Kessel 6th.

Unless you can list objective stats which clearly show some superior results.

Let's not forget that players can improve, Kessel continues to improve so it isn't like if you're better than 2011 Kessel, that you're better than 2014 Kessel.

Kadri has completed 4 pro seasons of hockey and should be better than when he had completed 3 seasons of pro hockey.

Bozak and van Riemsdyk have completed 5 pro seasons of hockey and should be better than when they had completed 4 seasons of pro hockey.

And as a Leaf fan that first thinks of the team, of the players you listed

Kessel, JVR, Kadri, Bozak, Seguin do you know who the oldest of them all is? Do you know who has not shown consistent progress Year-over-Year?

Do you expect the Leafs to contend now? in 2 years? or in 2+ years? Then based on that where do you see Bozak fit in this organization?

Who do you think will have more value in the next 5 years both in terms of value to the team (production) and value to the organization (trade value)? Bozak or Kadri? And why?

 

[leafstilldeath*]

That is just your opinion.

My opinion is that Bozak can be effective on any line, however realistically speaking the only evidence we have is that he is effective on the first line.

I've seen many suggest Kadri needs better linemates to produce better results, how is that any different than saying Bozak produces better results with Kessel than he would with a lessor player?

Wouldn't better linemates help produce better results for most players?

Kulemin and McClement versus Kulemin and Kadri?

Kadri produced 50 points and had a lower GA per game than Bozak while not having consistent wingers and not getting 1st PP duties.

Ofcourse better linemates means better results. Now do you think Bozak can produce at the same pace as Kadri with the wingers Kadri and the PP duties Kadri had? if yes why? if not why not? I am curious to see your thinking pattern.

 

[jughead42*]

Bozak definitely has more value to the team than Kadri because he can win a faceoff and Kadri cannot. If the team needs a fast little skill center, pretty sure Nylander will have taken Kadri's place in our organization for that role by then. Kadri will be busting his ass for Nashville's minor league team in two years, or some other skill desperate organization, because the drafting of Nylander makes him redundant. Pretty sure Bozak will still be able to win a faceoff at that point.

 

[mikebel111*]

Bozak definitely has more value to the team than Kadri because he can win a faceoff and Kadri cannot. If the team needs a fast little skill center, pretty sure Nylander will have taken Kadri's place in our organization for that role by then. Kadri will be busting his ass for Nashville's minor league team in two years, or some other skill desperate organization, because the drafting of Nylander makes him redundant. Pretty sure Bozak will still be able to win a faceoff at that point.

Okay now I know your mad that Frattin isn't elite!
I know everything you said is false so I wont argue it
I know for a fact Kadri will still be a good NHL player in 2 years
For Frattin maybe KHL player?
Stop making up nonsense

 

[Suntouchable13]

Bozak definitely has more value to the team than Kadri because he can win a faceoff and Kadri cannot. If the team needs a fast little skill center, pretty sure Nylander will have taken Kadri's place in our organization for that role by then. Kadri will be busting his ass for Nashville's minor league team in two years, or some other skill desperate organization, because the drafting of Nylander makes him redundant. Pretty sure Bozak will still be able to win a faceoff at that point.

Bozak was less than 50% last year. Kadri was close to him in faceoff win %. Kadri will only get better, Bozak will get worse.

 

[ULF_55]

Kadri produced 50 points and had a lower GA per game than Bozak while not having consistent wingers and not getting 1st PP duties.

Ofcourse better linemates means better results. Now do you think Bozak can produce at the same pace as Kadri with the wingers Kadri and the PP duties Kadri had? if yes why? if not why not? I am curious to see your thinking pattern.

I think it would be easier for Bozak to play with Lupul and another winger than it was for Kadri. Kadri lacks NHL experience.

I also think they could have stabilized the 2nd. line if Bozak was on it because he is more mature and would be more effective in creating a cohesive trio.

I don't think it is coincidental that Lupul-Kadri were -15, -11 respectively.

Would Bozak have the same number of points as Kadri did? Sure why not, we're talking 50 points, not 65. 84 different forwards had 50 or more points this year.

 

[officialmark*]

I think it would be easier for Bozak to play with Lupul and another winger than it was for Kadri. Kadri lacks NHL experience.

I also think they could have stabilized the 2nd. line if Bozak was on it because he is more mature and would be more effective in creating a cohesive trio.

I don't think it is coincidental that Lupul-Kadri were -15, -11 respectively.

Would Bozak have the same number of points as Kadri did? Sure why not, we're talking 50 points, not 65. 84 different forwards had 50 or more points this year.

Bozak has been in the NHL for less than 50 more games than Kadri...

 

[ULF_55]

Bozak has been in the NHL for less than 50 more games than Kadri...

So about the length of a lockout season?

 

[ULF_55]

Bro the problem here is that Bozak is 28 years old while Kadri is only 23. If we were a contending team Bozak @28 years old is fine but since we are hardly a bubble team that in itself is a problem.

Second, there is no evidence at all that Bozak can play well without Kessel on his wing.

These are some of the questions that should be addressed by the management thinking of team's future in mind and not any short-term decisions.

If I was to ask you that in the next 5 years pick between Kadri and Bozak who you want on the team what is your answer?

In 5 years we hope the answer clearly would be Kadri, otherwise he's been traded or failed to improve and 33 year old Bozak is still better.

In 5 years who would you rather have as center, the most talented player in the 2014 draft, or Kadri?

 

[diceman934]

It took Bozak 4 years to live up to the same pace that he produced in his first year in the NHL....60pts pace. Even playing with the top line and first unit PP and a top 10 scorer. There is nothing special about Bozak other then him playing with a gifted player in all offensive situations. Anyone who thinks that a more gifted offensive player would not out produce Bozak if given the same opportunity really does not have a great grasp of what the effects of opportunity does. We need not look to other teams to show the affects of opportunity.

Remember Stajan he produced more points with inferior players playing in the same role.

 

[Purity*]

At this point Bozak is the better player, he's a player that has progressed season to season.

To be fair Kadri is heading into his 5th year as a pro at 24. If he can show he can improve as Tyler has then I would agree with you. I think Kadri is closer to fighting off Holland for the #2 Center position than actually becoming our best center this year.

This is the reality of how much we need to draft a quality 2 way center to compliment Bozak.

You forgot to add "in my opinion" in your first part.

Kadri's 5th year as a pro? He just finished his first FULL season in the NHL, the way you crucify Kadri just reeks of personal bias. You seriously think Holland is at a point where he can take Kadri's spot? He hasn't proven a ****ing thing in the NHL. "Fight off" Holland? Lmfao, the spot is Kadri's because he is the far superior player, simple as that. In Kadri's first full season he accomplished what Bozak has never done with a revolving door of linemates without 1st line PP time.

And no, we need to draft a quality center to REPLACE Bozak.

Remember Stajan he produced more points with inferior players playing in the same role.

This, Stajan with 1st line PP time and no Phil Kessel still put up more points than Bozak ever has.

 

[The Apologist]

At this point Bozak is the better player, he's a player that has progressed season to season.

To be fair Kadri is heading into his 5th year as a pro at 24. If he can show he can improve as Tyler has then I would agree with you. I think Kadri is closer to fighting off Holland for the #2 Center position than actually becoming our best center this year.

This is the reality of how much we need to draft a quality 2 way center to compliment Bozak.

There is not much doubt in my mind that Kadri SHOULD end up being the better offensive (read first line) center on this team within the next two years. That being said, I still see the Leafs using a top six mentality, spreading the wealth.

The Leafs would be cap strung with what many here would consider a bonafide 1c between Kessel and JVR. They would have zero money for depth

 

[The Apologist]

ROFL at thinking that Bozak makes Kessel. It's the other way around. Without Kessel, Bozak is not even in the league.

What a ridiculous statement. Bozak is an NHLer and a damn good one. Deal with it.

 

[Purity*]

I think it would be easier for Bozak to play with Lupul and another winger than it was for Kadri. Kadri lacks NHL experience.

I also think they could have stabilized the 2nd. line if Bozak was on it because he is more mature and would be more effective in creating a cohesive trio.

I don't think it is coincidental that Lupul-Kadri were -15, -11 respectively.

Would Bozak have the same number of points as Kadri did? Sure why not, we're talking 50 points, not 65. 84 different forwards had 50 or more points this year.

Not likely, Bozak is not known for creating offense on his own and his numbers away from Kessel are absolutely putrid.

+/- is such a controversial stat and I really hate the way it's thrown around on this board to support whoever's rhetoric. They aren't good defensively, we already know that. Kadri's most-played-with defensemen was Cody Franson who had the worst year defensively out of our group, and coincidentally he also led our team in +/-.

Bozak has also NEVER topped 50 points in his career, do you seriously think he's topping 50 playing on a second line with a revolving door of linemates with no Kessel and 2nd line PP time? Please get real.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You forgot to add "in my opinion" in your first part.

Kadri's 5th year as a pro? He just finished his first FULL season in the NHL, the way you crucify Kadri just reeks of personal bias. You seriously think Holland is at a point where he can take Kadri's spot? He hasn't proven a ****ing thing in the NHL. "Fight off" Holland? Lmfao, the spot is Kadri's because he is the far superior player, simple as that. In Kadri's first full season he accomplished what Bozak has never done with a revolving door of linemates without 1st line PP time.

And no, we need to draft a quality center to REPLACE Bozak.



This, Stajan with 1st line PP time and no Phil Kessel still put up more points than Bozak ever has.

Bozak is the better player right now, he has progressed to the point he is a very good Center on any team, there are no buts or ifs about it to most reasonable posters.

Other than 50 modest points in 78 games, Kadri's only selling point. He is not as good at Center as for all the positive things Bozak does.

Kadri is in his 5th year as a pro, you may want to hope and think why it is taking him so long to figure it out, if ever. He has a long list of things he needs to do become as trustworthy to his coaches as Bozak has become.

We all know this, so let's stop pretending he is a 19 or 20 year old propect. Maybe he doesn't have the skillset to become an all around center, maybe he is a a scorer, a one dimensional fwd. But one thing is for sure, he needs to start showing progression to become as good a player as Bozak has become. At 24 this season, this may be his last chance.

You don't think a player drafted 7th overall 5 years ago should be a polished NHL'er by now?

 

[achtungbaby]

There is not much doubt in my mind that Kadri SHOULD end up being the better offensive (read first line) center on this team within the next two years. That being said, I still see the Leafs using a top six mentality, spreading the wealth.

The Leafs would be cap strung with what many here would consider a bonafide 1c between Kessel and JVR. They would have zero money for depth

That would be a good problem to have though. I'd rather have our Kings and Queens taken care of then worry about the 6's and 7's.

 

[glue]

Oh, you're right. When Kadri reaches his potential he's going to be awesome I'm sure. The problem is he hasn't had enough time to adjust to the league, build his man strength and develop chemistry with his teammates. He's only 24 years old in a few weeks, and beginning his fifth season as a pro. He's too young to be criticized for not living up to his expectations, guys in his draft year like Tavares, Duchene and O Reilly are in the same boat. Oh wait, you mean they aren't prospects any more, they are contributing? So what's Kadri's excuse again? Or at least which one are we going to use this year now that he's not "adjusting to the league and building his strength"? I know, Kadri isn't living up to expectations because our coach sucks. That sounds like it might buy him another year of substandard effort without being held accountable. Good idea.

hmm...where exactly in my quote have I stated anything comparing Kadri to those players?? ....to suggest 'he sucks' and Bozak is the superior player is what I find laughable..and apparently i'm not the only one...what a shocker..

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1717765

Bozak definitely has more value to the team than Kadri because he can win a faceoff and Kadri cannot. If the team needs a fast little skill center, pretty sure Nylander will have taken Kadri's place in our organization for that role by then. Kadri will be busting his ass for Nashville's minor league team in two years, or some other skill desperate organization, because the drafting of Nylander makes him redundant. Pretty sure Bozak will still be able to win a faceoff at that point.

lol..my god man...its best I don't get into a discussion with you...as logic clearly eludes you...this entire para spews hate...nothing factual about it.

Just as an FYI faceoffs stats last year for Bozak

23 Tyler Bozak TOR C 1,399 681 718 48.7%

You're right..how stellar!! And here's I'll do you the favour of posting Kadri's faceoff stats as well:

59 Nazem Kadri TOR C 1,127 510 617 45.3%

But here's the difference, I never claimed Kadri is awesome at faceoffs...he needs to improve greatly...but lets not pretend like Bozak is some sort of saviour in the faceoff dot.

 

[Purity*]

Bozak is the better player right now, he has progressed to the point he is a very good Center on any team, there are no buts or ifs about it to most reasonable posters.

False. On any real contender he's a 3C. The poll on the main board shows almost everyone rather takes Kadri.

Other than 50 modest points in 78 games, Kadri's only selling point. He is not as good at Center as for all the positive things Bozak does.

And there you go again with your personal bias clouding you from making any respectable argument. You like to flaunt Bozak's only good offensive season around for all your arguments yet you completely ignore Kadri's great success in his shortened season.

Kadri is in his 5th year as a pro, you may want to hope and think why it is taking him so long to figure it out, if ever. He has a long list of things he needs to do become as trustworthy to his coaches as Bozak has become.

Cool story bro, he just finished his 1st full season in the NHL last year. He played 50 NHL games in 2 years from on terrible teams with Ronnie Wilson forcing him on the wing where he doesn't belong. Stop twisting the narrative to suit your argument, it doesn't work that way.

We all know this, so let's stop pretending he is a 19 or 20 year old propect. Maybe he doesn't have the skillset to become an all around center, maybe he is a a scorer, a one dimensional fwd. But one thing is for sure, he needs to start showing progression to become as good a player as Bozak has become. At 24 this season, this may be his last chance.

It took Claude Giroux over 120 games to get himself figured out at NHL level. It took Datsyuk a long time as well, Backes is another. Those are just at the top of my head. Tons of great players need 100-200+ NHL games to figure their game out. And it took your precious Bozak 4+ years to finally put up good offensive numbers despite playing with world-class offensive talent (Including 2 point-per game wingers in one year).


Maybe try making an argument without using dishonest tactics.

 

[IronCow]

It took Claude Giroux over 120 games to get himself figured out at NHL level. It took Datsyuk a long time as well, Backes is another. Those are just at the top of my head. Tons of great players need 100-200+ NHL games to figure their game out. And it took your precious Bozak 4+ years to finally put up good offensive numbers despite playing with world-class offensive talent (Including 2 point-per game wingers in one year).


Maybe try making an argument without using dishonest tactics.

IMO Bozak's point totals are simply gravy on top of his real value.

He is the one that keeps that line transitioning and is usually in the right place to help keep the play alive.

Bozak likely has one of the highest hockey IQ's on the team.

He is not one of our best players, but I think it's safe to say that he is one of our most valuable players.