Nationality and US popularity

[straka91*]

Its actually simple to understand hockey's popularity in America.

In Canada, hockey is one of the few sports they can enjoy and is a major part of thier tradition.

In America, we have a lot more choices in sports we can choose from then hockey.

The reason basketball will always remain popular is that its really cheap to construct a basketball court. And the ball is the only "gear" a player really needs. Same with soccer, all you need is a decent area of flat grass, a ball, and 4 sticks to play the game. When factoring in sports in America, money plays an important role in deciding. And lets face it, hockey is damn expensive.

And what some of you non american's might think, not all of us have money falling out of where the sun don't shine.

 

[Fidel Astro]

The ice time is the real killer, as well as the lack of school participation. Just to play for the hockey team at the ice rink in SF takes the money and commitment of a travel team in baseball, and if you're spending the $ for that in baseball, at least you probably think your kid is pretty good.

Yeah, I think the ice time is definitely the issue down there, and will probably always be the issue, moreso than the cost. If the surface required to play on isn't readily available, kids AND parents are unlikely to be interested. I'm sure parents pay tons of money to put their kids in football or baseball down there anyway, so the money only seems like an issue because it's for something unusual.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Its actually simple to understand hockey's popularity in America.

In Canada, hockey is one of the few sports they can enjoy and is a major part of thier tradition.

In America, we have a lot more choices in sports we can choose from then hockey.

The reason basketball will always remain popular is that its really cheap to construct a basketball court. And the ball is the only "gear" a player really needs. Same with soccer, all you need is a decent area of flat grass, a ball, and 4 sticks to play the game. When factoring in sports in America, money plays an important role in deciding. And lets face it, hockey is damn expensive.

And what some of you non american's might think, not all of us have money falling out of where the sun don't shine.

While I understand what you are saying but you are lumping everyone together. I starting playing hockey age four. I played other sports just simply to get back to hockey season.

 

[Fugu]

While I understand what you are saying but you are lumping everyone together. I starting playing hockey age four. I played other sports just simply to get back to hockey season.

Lemme guess. You were always an agitator, amiright?

 

[Fidel Astro]

And another thing: I think hockey's status as sports priority 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 in Canada isn't long for the world. There's a combination of factors at play... why would a poor immigrant family want to spend to put their kid on skates when they could enroll him in a soccer league for pennies and watch him play a sport their familiar with? With the massive immigration Canada is experiencing, it's a realistic situation. I've personally met a number of first generation Canadians who see hockey as a white person's sport... the lack of diversity will hurt the game in Canada eventually, just like it has in the US. Plus, hockey is at critical mass... there is no room to grow. A bit of a decline is only natural.

I've heard this "immigrants won't get into the sport" line on here a few times before, and I don't buy it. Obviously it's an alien sport to people from non-hockey-playing countries, but when they move here, it's pretty difficult to avoid. It's everywhere. I've seen kids from all different ethnic backgrounds playing outdoor hockey. I once played for a team as a kid where everyone was native except for me -- I was the only white kid, and I'm a first-generation Canadian. So it definitely doesn't seem like white-only or of no interest to children of immigrants.

Doesn't mean every new Canadian is going to immediately embrace the sport, but a lot of them do. My dad taught me to skate and he had never tried it until he moved here. Even today, he goes to more AHL games than I do.

 

[Murphy9]

soccer is extemely popular here also. but when winter comes.....

then we bring it indoors or play box lacrosse.

 

[CC Chiefs*]

Lemme guess. You were always an agitator, amiright?

NOPE

I was always one of the bigger kids playing sports and alway got agitated by the little guys.

 

[still life]

The fact that hockey is less popular in American than in Canada is due to a number of reasons that have already been pointed out, but I don't think the perception that it is "unamerican" is a significant contributor at all, or even a marginal contributor. In fact, I don't even think this perception really exists. Hockey is often described as America's fourth most popular sport (behind football, baseball, and basketball), but that's not really true everywhere in the country. I'd say hockey is the third most popular sport where I live, as it's quite a bit more popular than basketball, but not more popular than baseball or football.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

Yeah, I think the ice time is definitely the issue down there, and will probably always be the issue, moreso than the cost. If the surface required to play on isn't readily available, kids AND parents are unlikely to be interested. I'm sure parents pay tons of money to put their kids in football or baseball down there anyway, so the money only seems like an issue because it's for something unusual.

Well, no, they don't. That's the issue.

Playing baseball and football at school doesn't cost that much. It costs a lot of money to get on a travel team in baseball, but if you're paying that for your kid, you probably think your kid is pretty good and expect him to get drafted/get a scholarship to a big college. That amount of investment just gets his butt on the ice in California hockey, so if your kid's a 4th line scrub, you're still out 2 grand. By comparison if your kid's not very good at baseball, but just enjoys playing it, he can do so on the school team for fractions of the cost of hockey. That limits the ability to play hockey to those who can afford it and/or the seriously hardcore.

All this "too expensive" stuff is putting the cart before the horse in a major way. The reason nobody in Georgia is playing hockey isn't because it's too expensive, it's because nobody in Georgia is all that interested in playing hockey in the first place.

Well, it's my personal experience. My parents are from the Northeast and I grew up interested in the game during the hockey boom. I'm sure they'd have loved to put me on the ice, but the investment was just too much for them. They bought me all the ball hockey gear I could have wanted, so I played a ton of that, but other than some ice skating classes it was just too much for them.

 

[cbcwpg]

One way to help reduce costs. Maybe not for high level hockey, but for some arenas so kids can play.



http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/other/plastic-ice-nearly-as-nice-112711884.html

 

[MaskedSonja]

One way to help reduce costs. Maybe not for high level hockey, but for some arenas so kids can play.



http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/other/plastic-ice-nearly-as-nice-112711884.html

I think that's a neat idea, and like you said, so kids can play. There will be the side of the coin who say "it's ice hockey, not plastic hockey!"

It would be interesting to skate on a "plastic" surface like that(I've never tried the sporting good store ones) to see the difference.

I just wonder do they "groom" the surface in any way?

 

[Fugu]

The fact that hockey is less popular in American than in Canada is due to a number of reasons that have already been pointed out, but I don't think the perception that it is "unamerican" is a significant contributor at all, or even a marginal contributor. In fact, I don't even think this perception really exists. Hockey is often described as America's fourth most popular sport (behind football, baseball, and basketball), but that's not really true everywhere in the country. I'd say hockey is the third most popular sport where I live, as it's quite a bit more popular than basketball, but not more popular than baseball or football.

I tend to agree. I don't think Americans view hockey as an alien or foreign sport, just one that our friendly neighbors to the north like above all other sports. Only one sport tends to get the "national past time" moniker. We still think baseball is America's sport, but in reality, football has surpassed it if one is to believe the ratings and $$ spent on NFL vs MLB.

 

[Brodie]

I've heard this "immigrants won't get into the sport" line on here a few times before, and I don't buy it. Obviously it's an alien sport to people from non-hockey-playing countries, but when they move here, it's pretty difficult to avoid. It's everywhere. I've seen kids from all different ethnic backgrounds playing outdoor hockey. I once played for a team as a kid where everyone was native except for me -- I was the only white kid, and I'm a first-generation Canadian. So it definitely doesn't seem like white-only or of no interest to children of immigrants.

Doesn't mean every new Canadian is going to immediately embrace the sport, but a lot of them do. My dad taught me to skate and he had never tried it until he moved here. Even today, he goes to more AHL games than I do.

This is a larger issue that involves things like assimilation and racial issues, so I'd rather not get too into it... but I will say this: the immigrant experience in Canada is so different today than it was 20 years ago. Assimilation into the wider Canadian culture is no longer a necessary part of it. So the new Canadian with no familiarity with hockey (and no desire to become part of the white Canadian milieu) has no incentive to push it on their kids.

Plus the sports environment in Canada has changed drastically. Toronto has basketball and soccer teams that can be seen nationally on a weekly basis and both of those sports now have massive exposure via cable and the Internet. An immigrant from the Philippines who is already a basketball fan now has an alternative to hockey that he's already more interested in. Combine that with the cost of hockey compared to both of those sports and the choice for many immigrant families is obvious.

 

[AllByDesign]

This is a larger issue that involves things like assimilation and racial issues, so I'd rather not get too into it... but I will say this: the immigrant experience in Canada is so different today than it was 20 years ago. Assimilation into the wider Canadian culture is no longer a necessary part of it. So the new Canadian with no familiarity with hockey (and no desire to become part of the white Canadian milieu) has no incentive to push it on their kids.

Plus the sports environment in Canada has changed drastically. Toronto has basketball and soccer teams that can be seen nationally on a weekly basis and both of those sports now have massive exposure via cable and the Internet. An immigrant from the Philippines who is already a basketball fan now has an alternative to hockey that he's already more interested in. Combine that with the cost of hockey compared to both of those sports and the choice for many immigrant families is obvious.

You have some valid points, but it doesn't change the fact that new Canadians are empracing the sport. I don't have the expertice to guess if it is a desire for assimilation or what the motivation may be, but it is certainly different from when I was a kid. Growing up it was very rare to have a new Canadian join our team, or getting into the sport.

Mrs. ABD has a cousin in Brandon, Manitoba. A few years back we went to see his hockey team play a game. It was a surprise hearing screams from the crowd. "Goooo Brian!!! Gooooooooo Cody!!! Goooo Stephen!!! Goooo BuPinder!!!"

I almost voided in my pants. It wasn't something that I was accustomed to. I have just had my 3 year old daughter in skating lessons. I can say with complete certainty that 1 third of all students enroled in the classes were recent immigrants. It is great to see.

 

[MAROONSRoad]

Its actually simple to understand hockey's popularity in America.

In Canada, hockey is one of the few sports they can enjoy and is a major part of thier tradition.

In America, we have a lot more choices in sports we can choose from then hockey.

That's quite misleading on many levels.

That's only true if you are considering ONLY professional sports teams to follow in person and ONLY include areas in the USA with multiple professional sports teams and ONLY if you exclude southern Ontario where almost 1/3rd of Canadians reside. On the other hand, many areas in the USA do not have any more professional sports teams than certain areas in Canada. Furthermore, Canadians have always had access to all major USA media and so most Canadians actually do have the same choices as Americans. Yes we have access to your TV stations on cable, your magazines such as Sports Illustrated, etc. There are people in Canada that follow the NFL, PGA, NASCAR, MLB, NBA, NCAA as well as CFL, NHL, WHL, etc. As far as non professional sports, Canada has pretty much all of the same sporting options you find in the USA.

GHOST

 

[MAROONSRoad]

This is a larger issue that involves things like assimilation and racial issues, so I'd rather not get too into it... but I will say this: the immigrant experience in Canada is so different today than it was 20 years ago. Assimilation into the wider Canadian culture is no longer a necessary part of it. So the new Canadian with no familiarity with hockey (and no desire to become part of the white Canadian milieu) has no incentive to push it on their kids.

Plus the sports environment in Canada has changed drastically. Toronto has basketball and soccer teams that can be seen nationally on a weekly basis and both of those sports now have massive exposure via cable and the Internet. An immigrant from the Philippines who is already a basketball fan now has an alternative to hockey that he's already more interested in. Combine that with the cost of hockey compared to both of those sports and the choice for many immigrant families is obvious.

The fact that the major cities like Toronto and Vancouver are becoming more multi-ethnic is not going to have a significant impact on the popularity of hockey in Canada in my opinion. In fact, hockey as a spectator sport has never been as popular as it is now in Canada. Participation rates in organized hockey similarly are at an all time high. Many newcomers are embracing the sport. In Vancouver there are a lot of Chinese-Canadian that are crazy about the Canucks. Same in Toronto -- I've seen Leafs games on TV at middle eastern fast food joints, where the proprietors -- in this case Muslims -- were transfixed.

In terms of where the best hockey players come from, they disproportionately are from rural areas.

GHOST

 

[blasted]

The fact that the major cities like Toronto and Vancouver are becoming more multi-ethnic is not going to have a significant impact on the popularity of hockey in Canada in my opinion. In fact, hockey as a spectator sport has never been as popular as it is now in Canada. Participation rates in organized hockey similarly are at an all time high. Many newcomers are embracing the sport. In Vancouver there are a lot of Chinese-Canadian that are crazy about the Canucks. Same in Toronto -- I've seen Leafs games on TV at middle eastern fast food joints, where the proprietors -- in this case Muslims -- were transfixed.

In terms of where the best hockey players come from, they disproportionately are from rural areas.

GHOST

That is pure fiction. Participation in BOYS hockey is declining and is a major issue for Hockey Canada. The only growth in the sport of minor hockey in Canada is on the GIRLS side...a well known fact you try to ignore.

As a matter of fact....where I'm involved we have LESS boys teams than last year because of the declining enrollment.

Anybody involved in hockey today (you're obviously not!) know this and also knows that immigrants are not as involved in hockey as they used to be.

Chinese Canadians watching hockey means nothing..if their BOYS are not pursuing the sport!

 

[MAROONSRoad]

That is pure fiction. Participation in BOYS hockey is declining and is a major issue for Hockey Canada. The only growth in the sport of minor hockey in Canada is on the GIRLS side...a well known fact you try to ignore.

As a matter of fact....where I'm involved we have LESS boys teams than last year because of the declining enrollment.

Anybody involved in hockey today (you're obviously not!) know this and also knows that immigrants are not as involved in hockey as they used to be.

Chinese Canadians watching hockey means nothing..if their BOYS are not pursuing the sport!

First of all read my post and read the post I responded to. I never said immigrants -- who mainly live in large urban centres -- are more involved in playing hockey. I was pointing out that many of them are interested in hockey as spectators or fans.

As to your claim that hockey participation rates are declining in Canada, that is complete bunk. I don't know where you get your figures from but you should take a look at Hockey Canada's official data for registered players. According to their published figures, there were 577,077 registered players in 09-01. 10 years earlier in 99-00 there were 505,367. Therefore, player registration increased about 15% over that time period. It is true that the women's participation rate has grown faster, but this is partly due to low starting point. In any case, both men's and women's participation numbers have increased over the last ten years.

Do some basic research before making baseless accusations. Maybe start here:

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/23952/la_id/1.htm

GHOST

 

[wickedwitch]

Is it wrong to say that the reason the main stream society in the United States largely ignores hockey because it is seen as "un-american"?

Yes, given that what's considered almost unanimously to be the greatest moment/event in American sports history is a hockey game.

 

[blasted]

First of all read my post and read the post I responded to. I never said immigrants -- who mainly live in large urban centres -- are more involved in playing hockey. I was pointing out that many of them are interested in hockey as spectators or fans.

As to your claim that hockey participation rates are declining in Canada, that is complete bunk. I don't know where you get your figures from but you should take a look at Hockey Canada's official data for registered players. According to their published figures, there were 577,077 registered players in 09-01. 10 years earlier in 99-00 there were 505,367. Therefore, player registration increased about 15% over that time period. It is true that the women's participation rate has grown faster, but this is partly due to low starting point. In any case, both men's and women's participation numbers have increased over the last ten years.

Do some basic research before making baseless accusations. Maybe start here:

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/23952/la_id/1.htm

GHOST

I'm involved..[Mod: deleted] Without GIRLS hockey participation is down and we are all trying our best to connect with the immigrant community to resolve it.

You can deny, but you don't spend 7 days a week trying to find ways to get more players for next season..

 

[redman]

I still think the main reason it isn't as big as the other 3 is because kids gravitate to follow what they play and continue on into adulthood. Until playing hockey is as accessible as basketball, baseball, and to a lesser extent football (while most kids don't play organized football, virtually everyone plays touch football with their friends growing up) it isn't going to be at the same level. Which is quite a shame, obviously, as our sport is way faster and more exciting than all the others.

cost to play the sport is the biggest hurdle. I have 2 boys who play ice hockey and the cost for both of them is about $3200.oo for the year. this does not include equiptment, this include 2 hrs practice week (half sheet ice) and 1 or 2 games weekend. any tourements are additional, as are any clinics or camps.

 

[Fidel Astro]

Playing baseball and football at school doesn't cost that much. It costs a lot of money to get on a travel team in baseball, but if you're paying that for your kid, you probably think your kid is pretty good and expect him to get drafted/get a scholarship to a big college. That amount of investment just gets his butt on the ice in California hockey, so if your kid's a 4th line scrub, you're still out 2 grand. By comparison if your kid's not very good at baseball, but just enjoys playing it, he can do so on the school team for fractions of the cost of hockey.

I can't speak for the entire country, of course, but I've never encountered a school hockey team in Canada either (other than at the high school level). Kids in grade six aren't exactly lacing up the skates and representing their elementary schools.

....maybe the school teams in the US are similar to the community centre teams up here? When I was a kid, there were no school soccer or baseball teams either, but everyone played one of those sports (mostly soccer) for their local community centre.

That limits the ability to play hockey to those who can afford it and/or the seriously hardcore

While I'm sure that's accurate, whenever I hear people saying things like this, it makes me think that if there were enough "seriously hardcore" kids down there, someone -- I dunno, the city, whatever local/state sporting organizations you have down there, hockey leagues, whoever -- would find a way to make the sport more easily accessible.

We (obviously) can't play soccer outdoors in the winter here in Winnipeg, but it's a very popular sport, and there's a lot of demand, so a number of facilities have popped up over the years to make indoor soccer available and affordable. Couldn't the same thing happen in non-traditional US cities for hockey?

Well, it's my personal experience. My parents are from the Northeast and I grew up interested in the game during the hockey boom. I'm sure they'd have loved to put me on the ice, but the investment was just too much for them. They bought me all the ball hockey gear I could have wanted, so I played a ton of that, but other than some ice skating classes it was just too much for them.

What kind of 'gear' do you need for ball hockey? A $5 plastic stick?

 

[Kritter471]

Fidel - there are often very informally organized elementary school teams in parts of the US (often basketball and soccer) as well as the local YMCA/community center teams. The cost for those teams is very low because the cost for the coaches/insurance/field time is subsidized in the greater cost of the center or school.

But there are almost no public ice rink facilities. They are almost exclusively privately owned and therefore charge a lot more for their ice time because they exist to make a profit. I live in a town right now with a public rink (in southwestern Missouri of all places), and it is by far the lowest cost rink I've ever played at. Both the adult rec and youth teams are almost ridiculously affordable relative to Dallas and Boston. Rinks are prohibitively expensive to build and maintain - in the town I live in, people are always griping about the ice rink even though it breaks even in terms of revenue just because of the raw cost.

Once the facility is there, it makes sense to maintain, but you aren't going to see municipalities investing in new ice rinks in this economic climate. So for kids in San Jose or Dallas (or here), ice time is going to be much more expensive because you have fewer facilities, and you either pay that expense or you don't learn the sport.

The US youth sports system is also very, very, very screwed up. People get way too concerned about getting their kids in to the "right" program early, as young as 6-7 years old, which leads to a lot of very expensive travel teams that have mite and sometimes mini-mite teams. This is especially prevalent in hockey, which attracts a family base that has the money to spend on things like that. Funds that should be going to getting the sport more community exposure or building more rinks are instead funneled into $3,000 seasons for 8 year olds with full time coaches, conditioning programs, matching track suits and such. The Dallas hockey community is very fractured among a handful of "elite travel programs" that infight a lot and don't really care about the health of the sport on the local youth sports landscape, just their own kid's prospect of getting a scholarship or moving onto some sort of junior team.

 

[Gump Hasek]

I'm involved..[Mod: deleted] Without GIRLS hockey participation is down.

Wrong.

Hi Scott; you should try both reading the link and comprehending the data prior to offering analysis, FYI.

The registration numbers are broken down between male and female. In 99/00 there were 461,946 males registered to play in Canada. In 09/10 there were 491,453. That is an increase, IMO.

The number of males playing hockey in Canada is increasing, not decreasing, refuting your false claim.

 

[bosshogg18]

What about turning this the other way. Why isn't basketball, football, and baseball more popular in Canada? All are a lot cheaper to play than hockey. Football may be comparable, but if playing contact football, the gear is for the most part supplied by your school.
I love hockey to death, but am curious why the other sports don't even come close in Canada as hockey does...especially when it costs so much. Every Canadian can't be wealthy.