Nationality and US popularity

Fidel Astro

Registered User
Aug 26, 2010
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Winnipeg, MB
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May I just ask why you say that? I was simply implying that Fidel was being too over the top with his criticism/attitude, and I tried to bring some balance to his perspective. How is that being "arrogant"?

I didn't think it was arrogant, personally.

I often go over the top with my criticism of America as it relates to hockey. The topic tends to angry up the blood.
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,751
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What's your excuse?
i think nationality was one of the things that drew me to the sport. 5'10 white guys with mullets? i knew a ton of them in my neighborhood. it was just way less of a stretch to dream about being mike ricci then it was charles barkley. no matter how hard i tried i was just never going to be a six five black guy.

the other side of things is we played in the street. street hockey is played with a stick(all the equpment you need) and whatever kind of ball you can get your hands on. the goalie would get a baseball glove. sometimes the crick would freeze and wed play on the ice in dress shoes or old sneakers. even later when we started taking over tennis courts its a game of hitting and shooting.

contrast that with the nhl and ice hockey in general. its a game of skating. even roller hockey involves skating and that means helmets, pads all the expensive equpment. which creates too big of a divide between the game you play and the game you watch. football is about blocking and tackling, fun stuff to do, baketball is about dribbling and putting the ball in the crate er i mean net, and baseball is about throwing and hitting a ball. all of this is fun to do and you develop those skills with or without all the right equipment. and the fundamentals are the same on the street as they are on tv

watch nhl hockey whats the thing they emphasize the most? skating. its like class warfare against americans. the skills and activities most people can relate to are de-emphasized and in direct contrast to our love affair with the underdog. in canada ice is everywhere so skating is a fair a distinction of skill players from not so skilled players but in america the skaters are "them". the people who could afford ice time. its like watching a team full of quarterbacks who dont credit their lineman. there isnt a hockey version of john madden to sell the rest of the team beyond the stars.

anybody who played goalie with no pads knows what it takes to lay out and block a shot and running into your friends and knocking them over with your shoulder is really fun for a kid. how hard you can shoot or "watch me hit that pole" and if your gonna grow the game thats where it starts, on the streets. with the kids on the corners and the guys who aint afraid to go into em

Your first and last paragraphs are great but CLASS WARFARE:laugh:

Acording to this logic hockey should only be played in canada and Northern US

Skating is like running in the NFL (actually CFL would be more appropreate) because everyone needs to run (in the CFL, i dont watch enough nfl to watch the O line)
 

Fidel Astro

Registered User
Aug 26, 2010
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Winnipeg, MB
www.witchpolice.com
Skating is like running in the NFL (actually CFL would be more appropreate) because everyone needs to run (in the CFL, i dont watch enough nfl to watch the O line)

Last time I watched a CFL game (or an NFL game, for that matter), there were a bunch of fat guys standing around and definitely not running. The only ones who ran were the quarterback, the ball-catching guy (can you tell I don't give a **** about the sport?) and the guys chasing the ball-catching guy.

Everyone else just stood around and got fatter. You're talking about a 'sport' where about half the team has one job: be as gigantic as possible to prevent the other guys from getting past you.
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,751
18,484
What's your excuse?
Last time I watched a CFL game (or an NFL game, for that matter), there were a bunch of fat guys standing around and definitely not running. The only ones who ran were the quarterback, the ball-catching guy (can you tell I don't give a **** about the sport?) and the guys chasing the ball-catching guy.

Everyone else just stood around and got fatter. You're talking about a 'sport' where about half the team has one job: be as gigantic as possible to prevent the other guys from getting past you.

In my opinion the fat guys do run in the cfl for certain plays I enjoy the CFL much more then the NFL (And before the NFL fans get all high and mighty, yes you have a million times better players then us, I just enjoy the game better)

(U must be pissed at the stadium deal:sarcasm:)
 

Fugu

Guest
Fidel won't be posting on any football forums anytime soon... :biglaugh:

That was brutal!:laugh:


Quite fitting, imo. Last time I cared about the NFL, some guy was coaching in Dallas who always wore nice suits and a hat. Very classy too.

I feel the same way about baseball, although they do have more guys who have to run, at least once in a while. Usually the fat guys just whack the ball out of the playing field and trot around the bases. Or they strike out. There's also all that spitting going on, and adjustments which we won't discuss here. :laugh:
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,751
18,484
What's your excuse?
Quite fitting, imo. Last time I cared about the NFL, some guy was coaching in Dallas who always wore nice suits and a hat. Very classy too.

I feel the same way about baseball, although they do have more guys who have to run, at least once in a while. Usually the fat guys just whack the ball out of the playing field and trot around the bases. Or they strike out. There's also all that spitting going on, and adjustments which we won't discuss here. :laugh:

Baseball is really fun to play but when i watch a game on TV it takes what I dont like about football (lots of pauses) and takes away what I like (the speed and excitement)

(back on topic) I have no Idea how baseball is more popular then hockey in the states especially on tv
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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(back on topic) I have no Idea how baseball is more popular then hockey in the states especially on tv

I really think baseball has crested and will be on a slow decline for the forseeable future. It has a huge amount of history behind it, being the national pastime and all, and it has the ESPN marketing machine pimping Yankees/Sox all the time. But like the other big sports of its era (horse racing and boxing) it's bad on television, horribly corrupt and doesn't really translate to modern culture. Kids still play it as 5-year-olds, but you don't meet a whole lot of teenagers who are huge baseball fans.

Given the financial model of MLB, there will be another work stoppage eventually. When that happens, all hell will break loose.
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,751
18,484
What's your excuse?
:rant::rant:
I really think baseball has crested and will be on a slow decline for the forseeable future. It has a huge amount of history behind it, being the national pastime and all, and it has the ESPN marketing machine pimping Yankees/Sox all the time. But like the other big sports of its era (horse racing and boxing) it's bad on television, horribly corrupt and doesn't really translate to modern culture. Kids still play it as 5-year-olds, but you don't meet a whole lot of teenagers who are huge baseball fans.

Given the financial model of MLB, there will be another work stoppage eventually. When that happens, all hell will break loose.

I think the playoff structure doen't help (mabee the blue jays will be third this year again.... YAAAAAAAY)

no chance to have too many successful years in a row i think really hurts the league (Besides Yanks:)rant:) and red sox:)rant:) who will be contenders every. single. solitary. year.)
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
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438
Mexico
Your first and last paragraphs are great but CLASS WARFARE:laugh:

Acording to this logic hockey should only be played in canada and Northern US

Skating is like running in the NFL (actually CFL would be more appropreate) because everyone needs to run (in the CFL, i dont watch enough nfl to watch the O line)

I'll take that as an opportunity to follow up from the last comment I made in response to a post by Fidel on the previous page:
"However, I'll give you this, Fidel... trying to establish teams in the US southern fringe is akin to trying to put teams in too-small Canadian cities. Those far-southern US cities may have big populations, but there is little to nothing upon which to firmly establish a hockey culture."

Of course it's hard to draw a line on the US map, unlike the clear borderline that exists between Canada and the US. A borderline that, at least with respect to hockey, seems to in some degree be a 'culture line'. However, I think that some will say that some degree of "hockey culture" has been long-established in certain parts of the US, especially in the north or northeast.

I'm going to exclude the NFL from this, since Canada has its own football league. But focusing on the NBA and MLB, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, and Edmonton are obvious omissions from those leagues. Why?

(2009 pop stats) Between the NBA and MLB,
- 22 US metro areas with either an NBA team or MLB team, or both, are smaller than Montreal (3,814,700).
Minneapolis-St. Paul 3,269,814
San Diego 3,053,793
Cleveland-Akron 2,891,988
St. Louis 2,828,990
Tampa-St. Petersburg 2,747,272
Baltimore 2,690,886
Denver 2,552,195
Pittsburgh 2,354,957

- 14 US metro areas with either an NBA team or MLB team, or both, are smaller than Vancouver (2,328,000).
Portland 2,241,841
Cincinnati 2,171,896
Sacramento 2,127,355
Orlando 2,082,421
San Antonio 2,072,128
Kansas City 2,067,585
Charlotte 1,745,524
Indianapolis 1,743,658
Milwaukee 1,559,667
Memphis 1,304,926

- 4 US metro areas with either an NBA team or MLB team are smaller or roughly equal in size to Calgary, Ottawa, and Edmonton (1,230,200, 1,220,700, 1,155,400 respectively).
Oklahoma City 1,227,278
New Orleans 1,189,981
Salt Lake City 1,130,293
Green Bay 304,783

So why is it that the NBA and MLB don't have teams in those Canadian cities?

And I ask, why is it that other than Los Angeles, Dallas, and Houston, which are the only far southern US cities larger than Toronto (where both the NBA and MLB do have a team), the NHL feels that it should be trying to establish hockey markets and a hockey culture in the US deep south?
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,751
18,484
What's your excuse?
So why is it that the NBA and MLB don't have teams in those Canadian cities?

And I ask, why is it that other than Los Angeles, Dallas, and Houston, which are the only far southern US cities larger than Toronto (where both the NBA and MLB do have a team), the NHL feels that it should be trying to establish hockey markets and a hockey culture in the US deep south?

because those sports would do as well as hockey in glendale
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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So why is it that the NBA and MLB don't have teams in those Canadian cities?

And I ask, why is it that other than Los Angeles, Dallas, and Houston, which are the only far southern US cities larger than Toronto (where both the NBA and MLB do have a team), the NHL feels that it should be trying to establish hockey markets and a hockey culture in the US deep south?

I'm sure that if NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, ESPN and Versus were all based in Canada, those leagues would be battling it out for the Montreal market.

Really, the answer to your question is quite obvious. It's about money.
 

AllByDesign

Who's this ABD guy??
Mar 17, 2010
2,317
0
Location, Location!
Quite fitting, imo. Last time I cared about the NFL, some guy was coaching in Dallas who always wore nice suits and a hat. Very classy too.

I feel the same way about baseball, although they do have more guys who have to run, at least once in a while. Usually the fat guys just whack the ball out of the playing field and trot around the bases. Or they strike out. There's also all that spitting going on, and adjustments which we won't discuss here. :laugh:

Could I interest you in some Cricket? Hey... everyone needs a back-up sport. :pillow:
 

Fidel Astro

Registered User
Aug 26, 2010
1,362
53
Winnipeg, MB
www.witchpolice.com
(U must be pissed at the stadium deal:sarcasm:)

Actually, no. I live in the West End, and I'm close enough to the current stadium to a) hear the (usually terrible) concerts that are held there, b) hear the loud cannon/fireworks/whatever sounds whenever the Bombers score a touchdown, and c) deal with the insane traffic if I make the error of trying to buy groceries (or whatever) on a game day.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the parking is particularly bad when Bombers games are happening. Every parking lot even remotely near the stadium has some ******* in a safety vest stopping every car and asking if you're parking for the game (in which case they will charge you money). It's infuriating.

I'm more than happy to let people in the suburbs deal with that ****. I think it's kind of a ridiculous thing to spend public money on, but I recognize that a lot of people here are big football fans, so it will benefit a lot of Winnipeggers. I just want it the **** out of my neighbourhood.

Oh, and regarding someone else's point earlier, baseball is even worse than football, and is also full of fat guys (or at least it was before they all started doing steroids) who spend half the game standing around in the outfield scratching their junk.
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
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Mexico
I'm sure that if NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, ESPN and Versus were all based in Canada, those leagues would be battling it out for the Montreal market.

Really, the answer to your question is quite obvious. It's about money.

And just exactly how is the TV market for the NHL in southern Florida, Tampa Bay, Atlanta, and Phoenix, and the Los Angeles area for that matter since the NHL saw fit to put two teams there?

And you mentioned only Montreal. As I said, there are 14 US cities with either an NBA team or MLB team or both, which are smaller than Vancouver.
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,751
18,484
What's your excuse?
Actually, no. I live in the West End, and I'm close enough to the current stadium to a) hear the (usually terrible) concerts that are held there, b) hear the loud cannon/fireworks/whatever sounds whenever the Bombers score a touchdown, and c) deal with the insane traffic if I make the error of trying to buy groceries (or whatever) on a game day.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the parking is particularly bad when Bombers games are happening. Every parking lot even remotely near the stadium has some ******* in a safety vest stopping every car and asking if you're parking for the game (in which case they will charge you money). It's infuriating.

I'm more than happy to let people in the suburbs deal with that ****. I think it's kind of a ridiculous thing to spend public money on, but I recognize that a lot of people here are big football fans, so it will benefit a lot of Winnipeggers. I just want it the **** out of my neighbourhood.

Oh, and regarding someone else's point earlier, baseball is even worse than football, and is also full of fat guys (or at least it was before they all started doing steroids) who spend half the game standing around in the outfield scratching their junk.

Only bomber fans will be paying for it too

To each his own
 

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,099
20,371
Between the Pipes
So why is it that the NBA and MLB don't have teams in those Canadian cities?

Not gonna touch the NBA, but as a legit reason why there are not more MLB baseball teams in Canada, is weather. As silly as this sounds, its a fact. Unless the Canadian city that wants a team is going to build a Skydome type facility ( see BIG dollars ), baseball is an outdoor sport , and the season for playing baseball can be a little short. I remember watching the Jays play in the snow before they built the Skydome.
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
14,870
6
Not gonna touch the NBA, but as a legit reason why there are not more MLB baseball teams in Canada, is weather. As silly as this sounds, its a fact. Unless the Canadian city that wants a team is going to build a Skydome type facility ( see BIG dollars ), baseball is an outdoor sport , and the season for playing baseball can be a little short. I remember watching the Jays play in the snow before they built the Skydome.

Vancouver? - the climate isn't that much different from Seattle.
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
24,420
438
Mexico
Not gonna touch the NBA, but as a legit reason why there are not more MLB baseball teams in Canada, is weather. As silly as this sounds, its a fact. Unless the Canadian city that wants a team is going to build a Skydome type facility ( see BIG dollars ), baseball is an outdoor sport , and the season for playing baseball can be a little short. I remember watching the Jays play in the snow before they built the Skydome.

But yet MLB is in:
Minneapolis-St. Paul
Cleveland
Denver
Pittsburgh
Cincinnati
Milwaukee

and not Montreal and Vancouver.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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And just exactly how is the TV market for the NHL in southern Florida, Tampa Bay, Atlanta, and Phoenix, and the Los Angeles area for that matter since the NHL saw fit to put two teams there?

Ask me again after the league signs its upcoming national TV deal.

And you mentioned only Montreal. As I said, there are 14 US cities with either an NBA team or MLB team or both, which are smaller than Vancouver.

The NBA triend Vancouver and it didn't work out. Why is MLB not there? Dunno. Maybe they think Seattle's too close?
 

Fidel Astro

Registered User
Aug 26, 2010
1,362
53
Winnipeg, MB
www.witchpolice.com
Not gonna touch the NBA, but as a legit reason why there are not more MLB baseball teams in Canada, is weather. As silly as this sounds, its a fact. Unless the Canadian city that wants a team is going to build a Skydome type facility ( see BIG dollars ), baseball is an outdoor sport , and the season for playing baseball can be a little short. I remember watching the Jays play in the snow before they built the Skydome.

Weather probably has something to do with it, but I think baseball in most Canadian cities would fail for the same reason hockey is failing in Arizona and elsewhere: it's not really part of the culture, and there's not a huge amount of interest.

I'm sure Canadians do watch the World Series, for example, in massive numbers, and obviously the Blue Jays have a strong following, but compared to hockey and even CFL football, baseball is kind of an afterthought.

We have the minor pro Goldeyes here in Winnipeg, and despite ridiculously cheap tickets, a centrally-located facility, and a relatively successful team over the years, I don't think I've ever seen the ballpark sold out, and I've been to a dozen or so games over the years. I think the sport is moderately popular, but that's about it.
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
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Ask me again after the league signs its upcoming national TV deal.

Ok, tarheel, I'll hold you to that. But in the meantime, I guess you'd say that all these years without a national TV deal has just been an investment for the future. And in the meantime, it would seem that the big US TV networks haven't seen much evidence for why they should get in on that lucrative US nation-wide TV hockey market.

The NBA triend Vancouver and it didn't work out. Why is MLB not there? Dunno. Maybe they think Seattle's too close?

And how much effort did the NBA put into trying to keep the Grizzlies in Vancouver? I'd say, probably not enough, but then totally the opposite from the NHL and Phoenix.

Seattle too close to Vancouver... come on, tarheel. :)
 
Last edited:

htpwn

Registered User
Nov 4, 2009
20,530
2,607
Toronto
So why is it that the NBA and MLB don't have teams in those Canadian cities?

They did as you may recall; Vancouver had the Grizzles in the NBA, and Montreal had the Expos in the MLB. Both franchises failed, for various reasons.

And I ask, why is it that other than Los Angeles, Dallas, and Houston, which are the only far southern US cities larger than Toronto (where both the NBA and MLB do have a team), the NHL feels that it should be trying to establish hockey markets and a hockey culture in the US deep south?

Not that it really matters, but Dallas' and Houston's massive metropolitan areas kind of skews the population numbers. I wonder how many people a 25,000km2 metro area encompassing Greater Toronto would have...:nod:
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
24,420
438
Mexico
They did as you may recall; Vancouver had the Grizzles in the NBA, and Montreal had the Expos in the MLB. Both franchises failed, for various reasons.

Sure, I know they failed. Perhaps the NBA gave up too quickly, and perhaps MLB did an NHL version of Phoenix in Montreal (I know, an over-generalization) holding on too long, but the point is that why should the NHL expect anything much different in the deep south of the US?
 

MAROONSRoad

f/k/a Ghost
Feb 24, 2007
4,067
0
Maroons Rd.
Please: no more NBA teams in Canada! One, that is rarely heard or spoken of, is enough! An NFL team in Toronto would destroy the CFL. It`s not worth it. MLB? Is that a sport? There`s still a team in Toronto, correct? I don`t see a huge demand for additional franchises in these leagues in Canada. I do, however, see a demand for more NHL franchises. I could be wrong, though.

GHOST
 

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