Nathan Beaulieu - Do we still need Markov ?

[googlymoogly]

This one is tricky. Ideally, it would have to be done during "Take Your Kid to Work Day," where Stan Bowman's kid actually runs the team for a day.

Maybe MB has some dirt he can release to force the trade. Getting Tera would be incredible at increasing top end talent at forward position. We have good D depth but no way Chicago takes this deal Tera was a great steal it looks like he should of been top 5.

 

[JAVO16]

Seems that many are forgetting two points:

• Markov has a non trading clause;
• Trading Markov means we are out of the PO (if you trade him for prospects and picks).

So all this seems not pertinent to me.

This makes it even more pertinent in year 2 of yet another five year rebuild.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sheldon Souray.
Mike Komisarek.
Saku Koivu.
Alex Tanguay.
Mark Streit.
Alexei Kovalev.

These are just a few names I can remember of guys we let go for nothing who had value on the trade market. All because we wanted to sneak into 8th or because we wouldn't negotiate IN season.

Yup.

Said it back then and it's really apparent now. What a waste of assets. Souray and Koivu in that Anaheim season could've netted us Bobby Ryan and a 1st I'm sure. Instead we do nothing, lose Souray for zero anyway and both Koivu and Souray wind up there later on anyway.

Looking back on this is so depressing man...

 

[Monctonscout]

This team is at a new low right now with this coaching staff but there 1 thing positive noticeable in a sea of negativity and that is Nathan Beaulieu. From his recent play he is looking really good and I feel like he has a very promising future. With his shot, skating and puck moving ability he could be the next big offensive point man this team needs. Before seeing him play with the team I was of the opinion of resigning Markov for a short term deal but now I feel like this team would be way better off just trading him at the deadline as this team is a disaster right now and needs some help. Markov's value could be decently high at the deadline so it would be a good move in the long run. I appreciate Markov I really do but at the same time I really don't care about all that retiring as a Hab talk and pride issues. This team is playing deplorable Hockey right now and I can't stand watching this crap anymore. What do you guys think?

I think you're on the right track, but I don't think what Markov would bring in value is worth the pain of losing a player like him for the next 2-3 years.

Unless you can get an NHL ready top 4 guy in the deal, it will leave a huge hole on defense and directly or indirectly lead to overpaying for a player to replace him(in terms of minutes) or rushing some of the young guys which couyld derail their development. If you think the habs are struggling now, take Markov out and it gets a whole lot worse. At least this is only a temporary thing where guys need to get back on track and all pulling the same direction.

If Tinordi and Beaulieu were 23 and 24 instaed of 21 and 22 maybe I would possibly lean the other way, but I think you have to bring Markov back.

 

[AntonCH]

Yup.

Said it back then and it's really apparent now. What a waste of assets. Souray and Koivu in that Anaheim season could've netted us Bobby Ryan and a 1st I'm sure. Instead we do nothing, lose Souray for zero anyway and both Koivu and Souray wind up there later on anyway.

Looking back on this is so depressing man...

Looking back and reading your statement you've misrepresented the facts
For the love of all that is holy in the business of hockey when will some of the faithful understand that making the playoffs adds to the bottom line. The owners are in it for the money, the fans are in it for the wins/championships.
Souray was the howitzer we had on the blue-line and we were trying to make the playoffs so sure get rid of the guy because you want future assets.
Ownership would've really approved I'm sure because forget the money assets are worth more!!

You do realize when we pick up a free agent it means someone else lost them for nothing right? it happens all the time for one reason or another

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Yup.

Said it back then and it's really apparent now. What a waste of assets. Souray and Koivu in that Anaheim season could've netted us Bobby Ryan and a 1st I'm sure. Instead we do nothing, lose Souray for zero anyway and both Koivu and Souray wind up there later on anyway.

Looking back on this is so depressing man...

I think that's absurdly wishful thinking.

Anahiem had absolutely no need for Souray that year. Souray's tangible value was as point shot on the power play, and they had Pronger and Niedermeyer for that.

As for Koivu, they already had Andy MacDonald and Getzalf.

These aren't guys Anahiem had much of a need for that year. I really doubt they were interested in giving up big assets for them.

This is the issue I have with people thinking there was a king's ransom to be had for Souray in 2007. There wasn't a good Western conference team that needed what he brought to the table. We shouldn't pretend Souray was anything but a good PP point shot, he was -28 that year.

 

[Lebowski]

This kind of thread reminds me of the Tinordi hype in the pre-season, followed by the huge letdown once the real season started.

Implying that Beaulieu can fully replace a proven top-pair dman (or top 4, at this point in his career) is foolish, unless we're aiming at a lottery pick next year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Looking back and reading your statement you've misrepresented the facts
For the love of all that is holy in the business of hockey when will some of the faithful understand that making the playoffs adds to the bottom line. The owners are in it for the money, the fans are in it for the wins/championships.
Souray was the howitzer we had on the blue-line and we were trying to make the playoffs so sure get rid of the guy because you want future assets.
Ownership would've really approved I'm sure because forget the money assets are worth more!!

You do realize when we pick up a free agent it means someone else lost them for nothing right? it happens all the time for one reason or another

Did we make the playoffs that year?

I think that's absurdly wishful thinking.

Anahiem had absolutely no need for Souray that year. Souray's tangible value was as point shot on the power play, and they had Pronger and Niedermeyer for that.

As for Koivu, they already had Andy MacDonald and Getzalf.

These aren't guys Anahiem had much of a need for that year. I really doubt they were interested in giving up big assets for them.

This is the issue I have with people thinking there was a king's ransom to be had for Souray in 2007. There wasn't a good Western conference team that needed what he brought to the table. We shouldn't pretend Souray was anything but a good PP point shot, he was -28 that year.

BS.

Anaheim was making a cup run. You can use all the help you can get and Souray was the HOTTEST player in the league at that point. We had also just lost our goalie to injury and the playoffs for us looked doubtful anyway. No, the Ducks wouldn't have give us Ryan for Souray straight up. But Ryan and a first for Koivu and Souray? Without a doubt. Burke wasn't even a fan of Ryan.

But... there was 8th place to play for right? Too bad we didn't make it. And too bad those guys wound up in Anaheim anyway. And too bad we didn't get anythign out of it. And too bad we didn't rebuild...

But, that's life in Montreal. The good news is that we'll start our five year rebuild plan now while our current players (who actually have elite talent) are in the lineup and in their prime.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Did we make the playoffs that year?

BS.

Anaheim was making a cup run. You can use all the help you can get and Souray was the HOTTEST player in the league at that point. We had also just lost our goalie to injury and the playoffs for us looked doubtful anyway. No, the Ducks wouldn't have give us Ryan for Souray straight up. But Ryan and a first for Koivu and Souray? Without a doubt. Burke wasn't even a fan of Ryan.

But... there was 8th place to play for right? Too bad we didn't make it. And too bad those guys wound up in Anaheim anyway. And too bad we didn't get anythign out of it. And too bad we didn't rebuild...

But, that's life in Montreal. The good news is that we'll start our five year rebuild plan now while our current players (who actually have elite talent) are in the lineup and in their prime.

This is wishful thinking on your part.

Souray doesn't displace Pronger from Anahiem's first unit power play. That he had a hot year with Markov doesn't change that. Pronger was an all-round elite player with a hammer of a shot, Mr. Bionic Hand isn't going to push him out of his PP time.

By the same token, Anahiem isn't going to be interested in Koivu in the slightest at this point. They are up against the cap, something that will cause problems for them next year and he doesn't displace their scoring line center and they were commited to Pahlsson's shutdown line. They only wanted Koivu after MacDonald was traded for cap reasons down the line.

Even if your on a cup run, your not going to give up prime assets for things that are superfluous. Koivu is a net negative for them because he doesn't fill a role and hurts their cap, and the one thing Souray does well they already have at an elite level.

This is like one of those idiotic trade board proposals, you aren't thinking of it at all from Anahiem's perspective.

 

[AntonCH]

Did we make the playoffs that year?

BS.

Anaheim was making a cup run. You can use all the help you can get and Souray was the HOTTEST player in the league at that point. We had also just lost our goalie to injury and the playoffs for us looked doubtful anyway. No, the Ducks wouldn't have give us Ryan for Souray straight up. But Ryan and a first for Koivu and Souray? Without a doubt. Burke wasn't even a fan of Ryan.

But... there was 8th place to play for right? Too bad we didn't make it. And too bad those guys wound up in Anaheim anyway. And too bad we didn't get anythign out of it. And too bad we didn't rebuild...

But, that's life in Montreal. The good news is that we'll start our five year rebuild plan now while our current players (who actually have elite talent) are in the lineup and in their prime.

Spin doctoring not withstanding
we were in the hunt- whether you want to admit it or not, and there would've been no way to make it without Souray
so your question and or line of thinking is off base

 

[SlyIslands]

This is wishful thinking on your part.

Souray doesn't displace Pronger from Anahiem's first unit power play. That he had a hot year with Markov doesn't change that. Pronger was an all-round elite player with a hammer of a shot, Mr. Bionic Hand isn't going to push him out of his PP time.

By the same token, Anahiem isn't going to be interested in Koivu in the slightest at this point. They are up against the cap, something that will cause problems for them next year and he doesn't displace their scoring line center and they were commited to Pahlsson's shutdown line. They only wanted Koivu after MacDonald was traded for cap reasons down the line.

Even if your on a cup run, your not going to give up prime assets for things that are superfluous. Koivu is a net negative for them because he doesn't fill a role and hurts their cap, and the one thing Souray does well they already have at an elite level.

This is like one of those idiotic trade board proposals, you aren't thinking of it at all from Anahiem's perspective.

I agree with you some people here don't know enough about other teams. And as much as some might think it was stupid, management wanted to make the playoff trading Koivu or Souray was out of question.

 

[SlyIslands]

Spin doctoring not withstanding
we were in the hunt- whether you want to admit it or not, and there would've been no way to make it without Souray
so your question and or line of thinking is off base

Yes some people here don't realize that owners wants to make the playoffs every year to add revenue. Even if it makes the team worst in the long run. Money is shortsighted.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is wishful thinking on your part.

Souray doesn't displace Pronger from Anahiem's first unit power play. That he had a hot year with Markov doesn't change that. Pronger was an all-round elite player with a hammer of a shot, Mr. Bionic Hand isn't going to push him out of his PP time.

By the same token, Anahiem isn't going to be interested in Koivu in the slightest at this point. They are up against the cap, something that will cause problems for them next year and he doesn't displace their scoring line center and they were commited to Pahlsson's shutdown line. They only wanted Koivu after MacDonald was traded for cap reasons down the line.

Even if your on a cup run, your not going to give up prime assets for things that are superfluous. Koivu is a net negative for them because he doesn't fill a role and hurts their cap, and the one thing Souray does well they already have at an elite level.

This is like one of those idiotic trade board proposals, you aren't thinking of it at all from Anahiem's perspective.

Again... BS.

Anaheim was making a cup run. When you are going for it, you are willing to give up prospects and picks. Burke said he wouldn't do it for a rental. Well okay, but Koivu wasn't a rental. He had chemistry with Selanne. And Souray gave them even more depth on the back end and his dauther lived out that way anyway... It made perfect sense.

And - the funny thing is that folks criticized that proposal back then because they felt Montreal was getting ripped off, not the other way around. Now though, we hear the opposite from some of those same people...

I'm not Brian Burke. I don't know if he would've said 'yes' to that deal. But it certainly would've been considered and it's not nearly the "Anaheim gets nothing out of this" crap that you're trying to peddle.

Here's the bottom line though and the main point of my post: Those are the kinds of trades we should've at least been trying to make. Let's say Anaheim turned us down... okay, move on to the next team. Go to Anaheim's rival and let Burke know you're doing this...

Over and over I heard false objections about why we couldn't do this - and it's BS. We could've if we wanted to. But we didn't. Because we wanted to fight for 8th place.

Spin doctoring not withstanding
we were in the hunt- whether you want to admit it or not, and there would've been no way to make it without Souray
so your question and or line of thinking is off base

Our goalie had just gone down with injury. It wasn't looking good. And... we missed the playoffs anyway. And... we lost those players for nothing anyway. And Koivu (and eventually Souray) went to... Anaheim!

The whole point is we should've rebuilt. Anyone could've seen that. But we didn't. And here we are now with huge holes in our lineup...

Some owners actually care about winning cups and will do what it takes. When you're a perpetual bubble team without young elite talent, it's time to rebuild.

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Again... BS.

Anaheim was making a cup run. When you are going for it, you are willing to give up prospects and picks. Burke said he wouldn't do it for a rental. Well okay, but Koivu wasn't a rental. He had chemistry with Selanne. And Souray gave them even more depth on the back end and his dauther lived out that way anyway... It made perfect sense.

And - the funny thing is that folks criticized that proposal back then because they felt Montreal was getting ripped off, not the other way around. Now though, we hear the opposite from some of those same people...

I'm not Brian Burke. I don't know if he would've said 'yes' to that deal. But it certainly would've been considered and it's not nearly the "Anaheim gets nothing out of this" crap that you're trying to peddle.

Here's the bottom line though and the main point of my post: Those are the kinds of trades we should've at least been trying to make. Let's say Anaheim turned us down... okay, move on to the next team. Go to Anaheim's rival and let Burke know you're doing this...

Over and over I heard false objections about why we couldn't do this - and it's BS. We could've if we wanted to. But we didn't. Because we wanted to fight for 8th place.

Our goalie had just gone down with injury. It wasn't looking good.

The whole point is we should've rebuilt. Anyone could've seen that. But we didn't.

And here we are now with huge holes in our lineup...

You know who Selanne also had chemistry with?

Andy MacDonald. Anahiem's 1st line center. Coming off an 85 point season, would get 78 in 07. And makes a million less on a team whose head is up against the cap.

Koivu isn't taking his spot.

Koivu has no role on the 07 Ducks. Because of the cap, they'd have to lose someone they actually need to get him. Anahiem isn't trading for Koivu that year.

You're not going to put pressure on Burke he by negotiating with his rivals when he full on doesn't need what you're selling.

Now maybe you can trade Souray for something, but that summer well demonstrated that the gap between what Souray and people thought Souray was worth and what the Western Conference GM's thought he was worth was fairly large.


But you are right, he was retained to fight for 8th. Its stupid, but GM's have a mandate to get to the playoffs if possible, and ou worry about getting fired for selling at a deadline when they are in playoff position so they don't do it. It may be stupid from the perspective of building for a cup, but it seems that's the way it is.

 

[SlyIslands]

You know who Selanne also had chemistry with?

Andy MacDonald. Anahiem's 1st line center. Coming off an 85 point season, would get 78 in 07. And makes a million less on a team whose head is up against the cap.

Koivu isn't taking his spot.

Koivu has no role on the 07 Ducks. Because of the cap, they'd have to lose someone they actually need to get him. Anahiem isn't trading for Koivu that year.

You're not going to put pressure on Burke he by negotiating with his rivals when he full on doesn't need what you're selling.

Now maybe you can trade Souray for something, but that summer well demonstrated that the gap between what Souray and people thought Souray was worth and what the Western Conference GM's thought he was worth was fairly large.


But you are right, he was retained to fight for 8th. Its stupid, but GM's have a mandate to get to the playoffs if possible, and ou worry about getting fired for selling at a deadline when they are in playoff position so they don't do it. It may be stupid from the perspective of building for a cup, but it seems that's the way it is.

Exactly, terrible from a fan point of view but logical if you want to keep your job for another year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

But you are right, he was retained to fight for 8th. Its stupid, but GM's have a mandate to get to the playoffs if possible, and ou worry about getting fired for selling at a deadline when they are in playoff position so they don't do it. It may be stupid from the perspective of building for a cup, but it seems that's the way it is.

You need three things to be able to do this.

1. An owner who wants to win more than anything. A guy who's only focus is a cup. There are some owners out there who are like this.

2. A GM with vision. A guy who know that sometimes you have to take a step back to take two steps forward.

3. A profitable market regardless of how your team plays. This may be less important depending on the owner, his determination and his wealth, but it factors in. Montreal doesn't have any problem with this point. We'll make money no matter what (barring some crazy change in the Exchange rate)

If the GM doesn't have the support of the owner, then you're going to get a situation like Toronto's and Calagary's where the ownership only cares about 8th place. If the GM does have the support of the owner then he needs to be smart enough to build something when you're not good enough to win and don't have elite prospects in the system.

I don't know anything about Geoff Molson. He strikes me as the kind of guy who wants a cup but doesn't know how to get there. He hires Savard as an advisor? To me that's good in the sense that he's relying on experience. It's bad though in that the guy isn't bright enough to be able to pick the next GM himself.

As for MB. I just don't like what I've seen so far at all.

 

[habitue*]

You need three things to be able to do this.

1. An owner who wants to win more than anything. A guy who's only focus is a cup. There are some owners out there who are like this.

2. A GM with vision. A guy who know that sometimes you have to take a step back to take two steps forward.

3. A profitable market regardless of how your team plays. This may be less important depending on the owner, his determination and his wealth, but it factors in. Montreal doesn't have any problem with this point. We'll make money no matter what (barring some crazy change in the Exchange rate)

If the GM doesn't have the support of the owner, then you're going to get a situation like Toronto's and Calagary's where the ownership only cares about 8th place. If the GM does have the support of the owner then he needs to be smart enough to build something when you're not good enough to win and don't have elite prospects in the system.

I don't know anything about Geoff Molson. He strikes me as the kind of guy who wants a cup but doesn't know how to get there. He hires Savard as an advisor? To me that's good in the sense that he's relying on experience. It's bad though in that the guy isn't bright enough to be able to pick the next GM himself.

As for MB. I just don't like what I've seen so far at all.

He was good during the interview, was supposed to have great friends all around the NHL, was borned two blocks from the old Forum and he is funny... That's about it.