ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Clancy, Pilote, Seibert over Park?
Why?
Park often is blanketed with statements like "he'd have 6 Norris trophies if it weren't for Orr". I think it's important to also go beyond just his Norris record.
I built a pretty ridiculous excel spreadsheet with many categories and used them to form a conglomerate analysis of these players. Couple that with reading up on Park as much as possible simply doesn't get me to the point where I can put him over any of those 3. He and Seibert are pretty close.
Yes, Park has SIX 2nd place Norris finishes, plus a 3rd. Besides that, he's not really close.
But you can say the same thing about a guy like King Clancy in the late 20's and 30's. He was going up directly against Eddie Shore (in other words very stiff competition). And its been suggested that Clancy would have actually won a pair of Norris trophies in 1930 and 1934. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=561775
A look at AS nods, doesn't paint a compelling picture for Park over any of the others. Now I do understand Park had stiff company for getting 1st and 2nd team nods, but the others can argue the same, although to a bit less fan fare.
King Clancy was a 1st team AS twice as well as a 2nd team twice. BUT the official AS voting didn't happen until 1931, when Clancy was already 27. By that point he was already a star and had 4 different placements in the Hart voting prior to 1931. Its pretty safe to say Clancy would have had at least another 4 AS nods prior to 31. Clancy also has a better Hart record, better scoring finishes by a wide margin (remember he was going head to head with Shore).
Pierre Pilote is similar. He actually won 3 Norris trophies (to be fair against older stars) but during his 3 runner ups he lost to Doug Harvey, and Jacques Laperriere twice, the latter 2 coming when Pilote was in his mid 30's. Pilote has a slightly better AS record. Pilote's offensive numbers don't get enough love either. He pretty much owned 1960's hockey in terms of leading pack offensively. Even if you remove Bobby Orr, Park doesn't come close to Pilote. There is plenty of evidence that PP was a very good defender as well, incredibly tough/physical, while being a big shot blocker.
It's also important to note that Park was used on the PK only 43% of the time, a big chunk less than most other players ranked (post O6 era). I'd be interested to understand why the smaller number compared to other greats from that time period and beyond.
AT the end of the day I don't think Park was better defensively than any of the 3 you listed and offensively he wasn't either, other than Seibert.
Nice to get away from the main board and seeing Crosby ranked around where he should be. I don't know exactly where to put him, but 13th is not that bad. I don't accept that Crosby separated himself enough from Malkin and Ovechkin to warrant one omission and one at 36 though.
I have one problem and that is also very common around here. Its that Roy is that much ahead of Hasek when I actually think its the other way around. And also, Brodeur shouldn't be close to them - he might not even make my list.
I LOVE Geno (I'm a Pens fan) but he's not top 50. Top 100, yes, absolutely. The issue with Malkin, really boils down to injuries. He's consistently missed to many chunks of to many seasons and its probably cost him more accolades.
People will probably accuse me of bias against Ovechkin, being a Pens fan, but I assure you, I'm not punishing 8. I built an excel spreadsheet with many different areas in which to compile data on. Ovechkin looks incredibly great as a goal scorer. No question about that. He's got a great Hart resume, great AS finishes (although context is needed given the lack of any real depth at LW in the cap era).
Where Ovechkin loses ground is obviously postseason as a I pointed out in his write up. It's no longer a blame others around him. Or blame the team. He's been on some of the absolutely best teams of the cap era (3 President trophy winners) and has never even made a Conference final. Ever. And over his last 60 playoff games (which is 2/3rds of his career) he has 40 points and is a negative player. That's Marcel Dionne bad, and Marcel Dionne never had teams like Ovechkin has.
Plus he's become increasingly one dimensional. He was never a play maker but pre 2010 he routinely created his own space and time with his speed and skill. That's all but gone now. He doesn't play D (for example he was pathetic in game 7 vs Pittsburgh this past year in kind of a huge game). And I think its perfectly fine to question is leadership abilities at this point and probably has been for some time.
What does he have over a guy like Guy Lafleur for example other than slightly more longevity? Guy L was a much more potent all around offensive weapon for the better part of 7 years. And he has incredible peak scoring numbers both regular and postseason, without Cup counting. Yes, I'm aware that those 70's Habs are some of the best all time, but individually he performed at an extremely high level in crunch time. For this era, Ovechkin has had at least 3 dominant teams, with a high end C (Backstrom) as his pivot.
The thinking is this: They have similar peaks relative to their peers, but Roy has a clearly superior record of playoff performances.
Exactly right. Roy played the bulk of his career in a much higher scoring era and had very stellar numbers. There is no doubt Hasek is the cream of the crop when it comes to regular season play, but I think it is important to remember that Hasek's Hart's and final 4 Vezina's also came after the strike, and when offensive numbers started to plummet, relative to the 80's and early 90's.
See these studies: Hockey Outsider and Q do a tremendous job with these types of number crunching projects and Roy holds up extremely well to Hasek in the regular season. And blows everybody away in the postseason.
Adjusted Save % (regular season)
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=718221
Playoff Save Percentage vs. Average Opponent Shooting Percentage
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1726821
Goalies: Adjusted Playoff Save Percentage
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1185967