My HoH Top 50 Players Of All Time!

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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Is it really BC?

I am a Pens diehard and watched/remember most of Jagr's years pretty darn clearly. While there were a handful of years where he led the team in scoring, there were also numerous times where he came up short or unimpressive in series if you factor in the entire scope of a hockey game. Jagr took some really stupid penalties over the years in the postseason for Pitt and more than once was near tops in PIMs.

I watched them too and had actually forgotten just how consistently Jagr produced in the playoffs. His problem is the same one Lindros had on the 97 Flyers. No depth.. heck Jagr had even less than Lindros did when he was at his best in the late 90s. The Pens were in firesale mode.. the opposition could key completely on Jagr and if he couldn't beat them mostly single-handedly the Pens were done.

He was often playing through injuries in the playoffs as well due to the attention he was getting.

I never felt like Jagr was a real leader and had the ability to raise his game to or even beyond his regular season production. On the stat sheet he looks pretty decent some years but Jagr wasn't a guy who had "it" when it came to the vast majority of key situations.

From the outside looking in, I think he matured and is probably a much better teammate now than in the past, but if you don't think he had "it", I'd love to know where he was missing it.

The Penguins franchise would definitely have one less Cup in its history without Jagr.

Now by the very late 90's and early 2000's the Pens were very average and often below average, but he was gone after 2001 anyway.

So when was he supposed to have demonstrated "it"?
 

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I watched them too and had actually forgotten just how consistently Jagr produced in the playoffs. His problem is the same one Lindros had on the 97 Flyers. No depth.. heck Jagr had even less than Lindros did when he was at his best in the late 90s. The Pens were in firesale mode.. the opposition could key completely on Jagr and if he couldn't beat them mostly single-handedly the Pens were done.

From the outside looking in, I think he matured and is probably a much better teammate now than in the past, but if you don't think he had "it", I'd love to know where he was missing it.

The Penguins franchise would definitely have one less Cup in its history without Jagr.

So when was he supposed to have demonstrated "it"?


I think you have to get to about 1998 before Pittsburgh truly had "crappy" depth. Even still in 1998 they finished first in their division.

But look at Jagr's last run in 2001. The Pens actually had a really solid offensive team around Jagr. Lemieux was back, you had Straka, Kovalev, Robert Lang, Jan Hrdina. The problem was Pittsburgh had little D or G talent, which in that era was going to cost you.

I don't doubt Jagr matured post Pittsburgh. But there were many rumblings of his immaturity there well into his mid late 20's. Lots of folks in Pittsburgh talked about his gambling problems, nightlife, etc. It was pretty well spoken, that while it seemed like he loved hockey, he never fully invested into it, which is crazy considering the natural talent he had anyway.

I've heard better things regarding Jagr from his NY days and beyond.

To kind of compare him to Lemieux as an "it" player (while i don't think Lemieux was quite an elite all time captain, still very good), he definitely matured a lot quicker than Jagr, and had a much, much different style, especially off the ice. Very low key, didn't seek public attention or fame. And you talk about a guy battling very bad back injuries and things (cancer) that could have literally killed him, he almost always raised his game to a ridiculous level, despite the ailments.

And I don't know about the Penguins having 1 less Cup if it wasn't for Jagr. That's a deep rabbit hole with a big hypothetical at the bottom.
 

Neutrinos

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Sep 23, 2016
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With 7 players separating them, I think you're either underrating Yzerman or overrating Sakic

It's also pretty odd to see Hasek at #15, when most would take him over your #6


Pronger, Lindros and Forsberg crack my top 20
 

ResilientBeast

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With 7 players separating them, I think you're either underrating Yzerman or overrating Sakic

It's also pretty odd to see Hasek at #15, when most would take him over your #6


Pronger, Lindros and Forsberg crack my top 20

I see no reason for those 3 player to be in the top 20. They just don't have the resume everyone else in the top 20 has.

they would struggle to make my top 50
 

MXD

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...There's arguably only one of these 3 players who's amongst the twenty best at his position.
 

ResilientBeast

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...There's arguably only one of these 3 players who's amongst the twenty best at his position.

Pronger? Forsberg?

That would require at least ~18 guys from either of their position ahead of them for them to be worthy in my eyes

Leaving ~30ish spots for the other positions in either case

50 just isn't that many people

Edit: I misinterpreted your comment, I agree
 

BraveCanadian

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I think you have to get to about 1998 before Pittsburgh truly had "crappy" depth. Even still in 1998 they finished first in their division.

Oh come on.. especially on defense those teams were very bad even with a hard ass defensive coach they didn't have the talent. Goaltending wasn't great, either.

But look at Jagr's last run in 2001. The Pens actually had a really solid offensive team around Jagr. Lemieux was back, you had Straka, Kovalev, Robert Lang, Jan Hrdina. The problem was Pittsburgh had little D or G talent, which in that era was going to cost you.

Bolded is the important part here but also I assume that Lemieux had "it" so why is this one on Jagr?

Having "it" mostly boils down to team success just like being "clutch". I'm confident in saying Jagr did his part during his prime but his teams didn't have "it".


And I don't know about the Penguins having 1 less Cup if it wasn't for Jagr. That's a deep rabbit hole with a big hypothetical at the bottom.

No, it really isn't. Jagr (and Francis) was super important in 1992 when Lemieux was out.
 

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With 7 players separating them, I think you're either underrating Yzerman or overrating Sakic

It's also pretty odd to see Hasek at #15, when most would take him over your #6


Pronger, Lindros and Forsberg crack my top 20


Most would not take Hasek over Roy. At best it's a 50/50 split and I've already outlined and given multiple reasons (and links of projects) as to why Roy is a greater goalie.

Pronger? If he's top 20, then he's on the same level and Kelly and Potvin. There is just no way to get there. In fact, he's really, at best, a borderline top 20 defender all time.

Lindros? Maybe if had a full and healthy career. As it were he's not close to being a top 20 C of all time. Simply not enough on his resume. Shame, because he was a beast.

Forsberg is the closest of the bunch to being on my top 50. But he suffers from the same problem as Lindros, although not as badly. Not enough there. Far fewer games to judge him on.
 

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Oh come on.. especially on defense those teams were very bad.

Bolded is the important part here but also I assume that Lemieux had "it" so why is this one on Jagr?

Having "it" mostly boils down to team success just like being "clutch". I'm confident in saying Jagr did his part during his prime but his teams didn't have "it".

No, it really isn't. Jagr (and Francis) was super important in 1992 when Lemieux was out.

I mentioned they were very bad on D by the late 90's, but even in 98 were still a 1st place team in their division. It wasn't until after that the wheels started to really come off, until 2001, where they sort of rebounded for a year.

Because Lemieux overcame more obstacles (back injury so bad he needed help just to walk + cancer and the treatments that wreaked havoc on his body) to dominate in the postseason more often than not.

As I said, Jagr had a handful of nice runs, but there is very little in the way of him taking over a series or entire run. Whether it was when the Pens were loaded (earl to mid 90's) or otherwise (late 90's and beyond).

1992, Jagr was firmly behind Francis in production and Stevens as well. Plus i'd argue Murphy had a huge role, especially in the Rangers series. Lemieux was then back for 3 of the games vs Boston in the conference finals.

And that team was loaded up and down the bench. Even without Jagr, you still had Francis, Stevens, Tocchet, Trottier, Murphy, Ulf, Barasso, etc.

And look at the Cup final vs Chicago. Jagr had 2 goals (7th on team scoring in series) and managed to be a minus player in a sweep that saw the Pens score 15 goals.

I'm not at all convinced Jagr saved Pittsburgh during that Cup run. I mean there is no way to definitively know, but the Pens were very deep and had a lot of veteran leadership to cover up the handful of games Mario missed.
 

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They were each other's peers. Yet Hasek has two Harts and a OG gold, with a clear record of beating Roy in head-to-head matches.

I forgot to respond to this directly.

They were not direct peers. Certainly not for Roy's prime. Roy was already 28 years old and starting goalie in 1986 by the time Hasek became a full time starter in 93-94.

Most of Hasek's peak came after the lockout, and in the so called beginning of the DPE. Roy's dominance came in the highest scoring era of all time.

I don't think anyone is saying that Hasek isn't more impressive in the regular season. But i think when you study the projects that are readily available and take into context the peak periods that each played in, Roy isn't as far behind Hasek in the regular season as it might seem on paper.
 

BraveCanadian

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Yes. I was only 11 at the time, but remember it fairly well, especially the Graves slash, and the Cup finals. I do remember Ronny Francis saving our ***** in game 4 when the Pens were down 2-1 vs NY. Completely flipped the script and momentum.

But you forget Jagr assisting on the goal that put it into OT for game 4.. and then scoring 2 of the Pens 3 goals including the game winning goal in game 5, and scoring the winner in game 6 to win the series.. and then breaking Boston with the winner in OT of game 1 of the next series?
 

Sentinel

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Their statistical primes were not at the same time.

Prime Roy wasn't winning Hart trophies against prime Gretzky and Lemieux.

The Olympic gold is a great feather in Hasek's cap but anything can happen in single elimination.. if I recall correctly, Roy outplayed Hasek in regulation and Canada lost on the gimmick? (with a little help from the post)

Wow, talk about goalposts running away! You said nothing about prime Gretzky and Lemieux! When was Roy even a runner-up to them? And no, you do not recall correctly, because Hasek was godlike in that game. In the last ten minutes + OT + SO Canada threw everything but the kitchen sink at the guy. Hasek thoroughly outplayed Roy in this game and in many other games (including shutouts in Games 6 and 7 of 02 WCF, while Roy's legacy suffered two major blows). Gimmick my butt.
 

BraveCanadian

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And no, you do not recall correctly, because Hasek was godlike in that game. In the last ten minutes + OT + SO Canada threw everything but the kitchen sink at the guy.

And yet Canada was outshot...

Hasek thoroughly outplayed Roy in this game and in many other games (including shutouts in Games 6 and 7 of 02 WCF, while Roy's legacy suffered two major blows). Gimmick my butt.

I mean good for Hasek beating a team 17 points lower in the standings in 7 games while playing on one of the most stacked teams of all time.. couple of nice Brodeur shutouts there at the end too.

However, Roy's legacy is pretty intact as one of the very best playoff performers of all time.

I really don't care either way because I'm not a big fan of either one but I do see the arguments both ways.
 

Sentinel

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And yet Canada was outshot...
Not all shots are created equal, I hope you realize that.

I mean good for Hasek beating a team 17 points lower in the standings in 7 games while playing on one of the most stacked teams of all time.. couple of nice Brodeur shutouts there at the end too.

I really don't care either way because I'm not a big fan of either one but I do see the arguments both ways.
More like "make up arguments one way."

Hasek has a winning record against Roy with the effing 90s Sabers.

You make it sound like it was Hasek who did a "Statue of Liberty" that resulted in a series-turning and then let in 7 goals in Game 7. And cry me a river about Detroit being stacked: Colorado was just as stacked. Detroit just got it together.
 

BraveCanadian

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You make it sound like it was Hasek who did a "Statue of Liberty" that resulted in a series-turning and then let in 7 goals in Game 7. And cry me a river about Detroit being stacked: Colorado was just as stacked. Detroit just got it together.

That was definitely Roy's defining blooper but that was one bump along the road to what is most likely the best sustained playoff performance a goaltender has put up across a career.
 

Michael Farkas

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Not to knock Roy, as he is clearly the best playoff goalie in town, but didn't Neely also slug him from 80 feet out in the...hmmm...1988 Adams Division Final I wanna say...maybe...?

Every goalie has his hiccups, all of them...finding them on Roy in the playoffs is particularly tough, so tough that I may made that up...

Just for ultra clarity, this is really a non-sequitur that I'm just making vague conversation with...
 

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Yeah, I vividly remember Hasek getting beat by Darius friggin' Kasparaitis on a long wrister in 2001 OT game 7, to cap off a pretty poor performance in that series for The Dom.

They all have poor moments. If you play long enough, it will happen.
 

Michael Farkas

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That was the last goal he gave up as a Sabre. I have Gary Thorne's call etched in my mind from that night...

They had just talked about the Penguins attacking well in the first OT. Jagr got tied up at center but I think Thorne attributes him with a drop pass. "Lang coming again, Lang drops it back...here comes Kasparaitis...HE SCORES! DARIUS KASPARAITIS! The Pittsburgh Penguins three to two over the Sabres, they'll go against the Devils in the Conference Final!"

This was about 14 game minutes or so after Kasparaitis had caught a puck and threw it clear out of play in the defensive zone with about a minute left in the 3rd...it was a lay-up delay of game penalty even back then, but it went uncalled...though not undetected...
 

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"You're a boring old man"
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That was the last goal he gave up as a Sabre. I have Gary Thorne's call etched in my mind from that night...

They had just talked about the Penguins attacking well in the first OT. Jagr got tied up at center but I think Thorne attributes him with a drop pass. "Lang coming again, Lang drops it back...here comes Kasparaitis...HE SCORES! DARIUS KASPARAITIS! The Pittsburgh Penguins three to two over the Sabres, they'll go against the Devils in the Conference Final!"

This was about 14 game minutes or so after Kasparaitis had caught a puck and threw it clear out of play in the defensive zone with about a minute left...it was a lay-up delay of game penalty even back then, but it went uncalled...though not undetected...

Yeah, that call is a great one if you're a Pens fan haha. I remember I was over at a friends house, there was about 7-8 of us and when Kasper scored, we were going crazy, diving over furniture and probably being loud enough to be heard down the development!

Plus who in the hell thought Kasparaitis, of all people, was going to net the winner? He'd have been about dead last for me if I was picking a goal scorer. :laugh:
 

quoipourquoi

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Not to knock Roy, as he is clearly the best playoff goalie in town, but didn't Neely also slug him from 80 feet out in the...hmmm...1988 Adams Division Final I wanna say...maybe...?

Every goalie has his hiccups, all of them...finding them on Roy in the playoffs is particularly tough, so tough that I may made that up...

Just for ultra clarity, this is really a non-sequitur that I'm just making vague conversation with...

1991. Came in fast at the blueline on the powerplay and blasted it through Dufresne and Roy.
 

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