My HoH Top 50 Players Of All Time!

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Oblivion Express
So I've been working on my top 50 (top 100 to be done by end of year) for about 3 months now and wanted to share my work with the great members of the HoH. I hope you will read my write ups and take a look at the bio's I've provided from our awesome All Time Draft members that were done over the years there. I took a great deal of time to research my positions and used a lot of the info I've learned here and during my time in the ATD.

I know the list will raise questions, and hopefully generate great discussion along the way. Let's all try to stay on point with the discussion which is the rankings/reasoning behind them.

Also, you'll notice a few Russians from the Cold War era (think Fetisov/Makarov) are missing. My plan is to work them into the list once I finalize my top 100. So I didn't forget our CCCP brothers, just going about the overall ranking progression differently.


My top 50 Hockey Players of All Time:


1. Wayne Gretzky
-He revolutionized hockey. Made the game globally noticable. If he doesn't score a single goal, he still is the leading scorer all time in the history of the game. Too many unbreakable records to post. Ask even non hockey fans to name a great and they'll likely be able to come up with at least Gretzky. That's the impact he's had on the game.

-bio by velociraptor: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=57943301&postcount=3


2. Bobby Orr
-Like Gretzky, Orr was revolutionary. He completely changed the way defensemen were looked at and utilized. Had he stayed healthy and been able to play well into his 30's he would have challenged Gretzky for top spot. As it were, he is still the greatest blueliner of all time. 8 straight Norris trophies, 3 Hart's, 2 Art Ross's, 2 Cups, 2 Conn Smythe's, and he led the league in assists 5 times in a 6 year span. He scored one of the greatest Cup winning goals in NHL history in 1970, which ended a nearly 3 decade Cup drought in Boston. That iconic pictureis one of the few non Penguins items hanging in my sports cave!

-bio by Rob Scuderi: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42799709&postcount=4


3. Gordie Howe
-If you were to put a picture next to the definition of a sports iron man, Howe would have little competition for that honor. Consider, at age 51 (yeah that's correct), he scored 15 goals and 41 points for Hartford. Before that final season Howe was a ridiculous 21 time post season AS (12 1st teams, 9 2nd team) from the ages of 20 to 41. He won 6 Hart trophies (2nd most all time) and was a finalist 6 more times, 6 Art Ross's, 4 Cups, lead the postseason is scoring 6 times. I understand completely why Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux all refereed to Howe as the greatest player of all time recently. Orr and Howe are more or less 2A and 2B to me. Orr had the insane peak, and Howe the legendary longevity.

-bio by Dreakmur: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=65875173&postcount=269


4. Mario Lemieux
-The ulimate "what if" player. Being a Penguins fan, Lemieux was the reason why I got into hockey as a youngster. I saw him live for the first time in 1991. To this day I still believe him to be the most naturally gifted player I've ever seen. For a man his size, to be able to do on skates what he did, was messmerizing. If it weren't for horrible back problems and a battle with cancer, Lemieux likely gets close to or matches some of Gretzky's absurd records. As it were there is likely no player who has meant as much to a city and hockey as Lemieux does to Pittsburgh. His arrival in 1984 saved the franchise from relocating. And after he turned deferred money into a stake in the team, in the late 90's, he once again helped save the troubled franchise as an owner in the coming years. His per game numbers are on par with Gretzky. Despite playing 70 games or more in a season just 6 times, he managed to be a 9 time AS, 3 time Hart winner, 6 time Art Ross champ, two time SC champion, with a pair of Conn Smythes to match.

-bio by Hawkey Town 18: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=81978479&postcount=124


5. Bobby Hull
-The first drop off from one spot to the next occurs here. That's in no way a slight to Bobby Hull who had a magnificent career. 604 goals in 1034 NHL games, he was/is, IMO, the greatest goal scorer of all time. I think it was a mistake to leave the NHL for the WHA as he was still an elite player in 1972. With that being said he still has 7 Rocket Richard trophies, which is most in NHL history. A 10x 1st team AS is also a record for LW. Although he won only one Stanley Cup, Hull was an underrated postseason player. 129 points in 119 career games with 62 goals overall. He led the postseason in goal scoring 3 times. As for his WHA days, he dominated the league despite playing in his mid to late 30's, winning the MVP twice and scoring 638 points in 411 games.

-bio by BillyShoe1721: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=78463261&postcount=5


6. Patrick Roy
-If you needed a goalie for one game to win the title, not taking Patrick Roy would be insane. Roy ranking 6th might surprise some people but to me, its not much of a stretch at all. He is the greatest money/big game goalie of all time. His 3 Conn Smythe's are the most in NHL history, which is even more significant because the award is usually dominated by forwards. If one wants to see how dominate Roy was in the postseason check out this thread

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1185967 Roy owns 3 of the top 7 adjusted save percentages (postseason) of goalies of the SV% era. There is little doubt among hockey historians that Montreal wins the Cup in 86 or 93 without Roy. Roy was no slouch in the regular season either. He won 3 Vezina's, and was a finalist 4 other times. He led the NHL in SV% 4 times, all in the highest scoring time period in NHL history. Given his dominance in the postseason, largely in the all time highest scoring era, plus a very good regular season resume, I can't see putting another G above him.

-bio by seventieslord: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=129522777&postcount=78


7. Doug Harvey
-Harvey, the highest ranked player to spend most/all of their career in Montreal?!? You bet. While technically he wasn't a career Montreal Canadien, he played the first 14 of his 19 years there and is among the most decorated players in team and NHL history. Harvey controlled the tempo of a game like no other before him and was the 4 star general on the ice, playing on teams loaded with talent, top to bottom. His ability to decipher plays and transition the puck was legendary. He quarterbacked the power play. Defensively there were no holes in his game, unless you count not being an overly rough player in an era filled with such types. Even still, he blocked a ton of shots and routinely broke up opposing rushes with incredible stick work and positional play. He didn't mind being physical, but intelligence, calmness and skill were his calling cards. His major accolades include 7 Norris trophies, 11 straight postseason AS nods (10 1st team), and being a bedrock of 6 Stanley Cup champions.

-bio by EalgeBelfour: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30625414&postcount=24


8. Jean Beliveau
-The greatest captain in NHL history in my estimation, and certainly one of the classiest players ever to skate on NHL ice, Beliveau comes in at number 8. The great Franke Selke sums up Le Gros Bill perfectly:

"With Maurice," said Managing Director Selke, "his moves are powered by instinctive reflexes. Maurice can't learn from lectures. He does everything by instinct and with sheer power. Beliveau, on the other hand, is probably the classiest hockey player I've ever seen. He has a flair for giving you his hockey as a master showman. He is a perfect coach's hockey player because he studies and learns. He's moving and planning all the time, thinking out the play required for each situation. The difference between the two best hockey players in the game today is simply this: Beliveau is a perfectionist, Richard is an opportunist."

Mr. Selke's comments sum up why I have Beliveau just a hair better than Richard all time. If there were a weakness early in Beliveau's career he worked tirelessly to perfect it. At his peak he was as good an all around player as there was in hockey. He won 10 SC's, the first ever Conn Smythe, and would have surely had more if the award existed prior to 1965, namely in 1956 which was one of the greatest SC playoff performances to date in the NHL. Besides his long resume as playoff performer, he was a 2 time Hart winner (with 5 more finalist nods), won a scoring title, plus 2 goal/assists titles. Beliveau was a 10 time postseason AS, his final one coming at age 37. Few have graced the ice the way Beliveau did both as an elite player/leader and gamesmen.


9. Maurice Richard
-Richard is as big a sports icon in Canada (especially Quebec) as any athlete in history. He was the first NHL player to score 50 goals and did so in just 50 games. While that is remarkable achivement, some context is needed. Those 50 goals came in the 1944-45 season, which was at the height of WWII. Many of the leagues stars were serving their country in some capacity and the talent league wide was diminished considerably, espeically on the American based teams. Regardless, Richard still retired with the most goals in NHL history at 544 total. He led the league in goal scoring 5 seperate times and in 1999 the NHL created the Rocket Richard trophy to be awarded to the player who scores the most goals in the regular season. He also was a 14 consecutive post season AS from 1944 through the 1957 season. Richard also won the Hart trophy in 1947. But perhaps his greatest trait was coming up big in the postseason. Richard was a member of 8 Cup winning teams, he led the playoffs in goals 5 different times and points twice. He wasn't as well rounded as Harvey or Beliveau but make no mistake, Richard was the most iconic Canadien.

-bio by TheDevilMadeMe: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30722914&postcount=42


10. Ray Bourque
-Other than Bobby Orr, there is not a better regular season resume for a blueliner in NHL history, especially considering longevity, era, and competition. Bourque won 5 Norris trophies, and was a finalist 10, yes 10, more times over his 23 year career. His 19 postseason AS nods are most of any NHL blueliner and 2nd most all time behind only Gordie Howe. He was a 1st team AS at 19, his rookie season and at age 40, his final year. He still holds the record for most goals, assists, and points by a defensemen. He led his team in scoring 5 times, led all defensemen in scoring twice and was top 3 a total of 13 times. Only Bobby Orr was used more on special teams post expansion in 1967 and Bourque played 1000+ more career games. His adjusted even-strength +/-, as calculated by overpass is the best all time, besting even Bobby Orr's. In terms of postseason play, most remember Bourque winning the SC in his final season, at age 40 with the Avalanche. Unfourtantely the first half of his career overlapped with the Islandes and Oilers dynasties, as well as Pittsburgh's early 90's dominance in the east. While he didn't enjoy much team success, Bourque still managed to put up 180 points in 214 career games, which is 3rd all time behind Paul Coffey and Nick Lidstrom. He exceeded 20 points 3 different times. Even at 40, Bourque was playing more than 28 minutes a game for Colorado and he contributed 10 points and was +9 en route to capping off a tremendous career with that elusive Stanley Cup.

-bio by Dreakmur: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=78861831&postcount=15


11. Eddie Shore
-When you have 4 Hart trophies as a defensemen, which not even Bobby Orr can claim, you'll rank highly on a hockey all time greats list. Not only did Shore win 4 MVP's as a blueliner, he managed another runner up and two 3rd place finishes as well. His offensive ability was unmatched from the late 20's through the mid 1930's. 6 times he led all defensemen in scoring and 3 more times finished 2nd. He was elite at both scoring and setting up others. Had the Norris trophy existed Shore would have won a slew of them. He was easily the most feared player of his day, not only because of his skills but more importantly his brutal style of play. At times his rough and over the top play overshadowed his overall ability and it cost Boston, namely in the postseason, although he did manage to help the Bruins win a pair of Cups. At the end of the day there is little doubt in my mind that Shore was not only the roughest, toughest, most indestructible player of his time, but also the best.

bio by Dreakmur: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=66642795&postcount=270


12. Nicklas Lidstrom
-Has there ever been a more "boring" superstar in hockey history than Nick Lidstrom? I had the privileged of watching a lot of Lidstrom's career given Detroit was not far away and generally at or near the top of the standings every year, so they were televised quite a bit. What always blew me away was how calm and in charge of the game he was. His hockey IQ was through the roof and mistakes very rarely happened whether he was in possession of the puck or away from it. He was not a physical player whatsoever but postionally there was no one better. His skating and ability to use his stick defensively was sublime and probably the most infuriating thing about him as an opposing fan. He beat you with his smarts, skills, and positioning. And make no mistake he was very apt on the offensive side of the game. He had an incredibly accurate shot from the point and generally made pinpoint passes to wherever the puck was needed. By the time his illustrious career ended, Lidstrom had won 7 Norris trophies (finalist another 4 times), was a 12 time postseason AS, a 4 time champion, with a Conn Smythe in tow. Lidstrom's 183 career points is the 2nd most in playoff history behind only Paul Coffey. Lidstrom led all defensemen in scoring 5 times and was top 3 on 12 different occasions. If you didn't know what subtleties to look for in a hockey game, it was possible to think Lidstrom wasn't quite as great as he was. But I assure you, he was, even if it was "boring".

bio by Hobnobs: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42829169&postcount=7


13. Sidney Crosby
-There was a time where Crosby was in a battle as to who would become this generations greatest player. It's safe to say after the past few seasons, that debate is all but over. Fresh off back to back championships (Penguins became the first team to do that in the salary cap era) and back to back Conn Smythe's (Sid is only 3rd player to accomplish that feat in NHL history) Crosby has firmly entrenched himself as an all time great. Much like Jean Beliveau, Crosby is the definition of a perfectionist. His work ethic, in the day and age of multi million dollar salaries and big endorsements, is legendary. No matter what height Crosby has reached he always seems to want more and works relentlessly to get it. As a huge fan of both the Penguins and Crosby, I couldn't be prouder of him as an ambassador for the game and Pittsburgh area. I can assure you, his contributions to hockey off the ice are just as impactful as what he does on the ice. But this list is about his exploits of on ice abilities and accolades. Since Crosby has entered the NHL 12 years ago, he's managed to just about everything possible as an NHL player. He's won 2 Hart trophies (6 time finalist) and 2 Art Ross trophies. Freak injuries are the only thing keeping those 2 numbers from being higher. He's also managed to notch 2 Rocket Richard's and is 7 time postseason all star. Crosby ranks 6th all time in regular season points per game and 12th in the playoffs. He's won 2 gold medals at the Olympics, including scoring one of the most famous goals in international history in 2010, in OT vs the United States, to win gold. He's won a World Championship gold as well as a World Cup of Hockey championship where he was the MVP. Crosby is a member of the famed triple and quad gold clubs and is the only player in history to captain all 3/4 teams to to a title. Mike Babcock said of Crosby, "he's a seriel winner". 3 Stanley Cup wins (4 trips) and 4 more gold medals before the age of 30 validates Babcock's assertion.

bio done by myself: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=134528609&postcount=106


14. Mark Messier
-I've always been a big fan of Mark Messier. He is a guy who worked his tail off to become better as he wasn't a can't miss prospect. An incredibly fierce warrior who would run through a brick wall to win. One of the all time great leaders in hockey as well. There were plenty of folks who despised him and his style of play made that easy to do, especially if you were a fan of a rival team. There is no doubt he went to the edge and beyond a number of times in terms of legal play, but generally speaking, was just a really tough S.O.B. in an era where taking liberties happened more frequently. During his storied career Messier won a pair of Hart and Pearson (Lindsay) trophies, and was a 5 time post season AS. This during the same era as Gretzky and Lemieux. And while he never led the league in goals or scoring, Messier managed to finish top 10 in scoring 6 times. His 1887 points is 3rd all time, behind only Gretzky and Jagr. Messier's main mark was his dominance in the postseason. He won 5 Cups in Edmonton, (as well as a Conn Smythe in 84), the last one coming in 1990 when he was able to captain the team to glory without Gretzky hovering over him. But perhaps his most significant achievement came in 1994 when he led the Rangers to their first Cup win in 54 years. He publicly guaranteed a win in game 6 of the Conference finals vs NJ and backed up his bravado with a natural hat trick. The Rangers won the series in 7. Then in the finals he scored the Cup winning goal in game 7 vs Vancouver, becoming the only player in NHL history to captain 2 different teams to a Cup win. In the postseason Messier scored 295 points in 236 games. 7 times he scored more than 20 points. 3 times 30 or more. He scored double digit points in 14 consecutive trips from 1983 through 1997. There are very few players in history who can say they could match Messier's postseason dominance.

bio by seventieslord: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31100726&postcount=69


15. Dominik Hasek
-Based on regular season accolades Dom Hasek is the greatest goalie in NHL history. To say Hasek was unorthodox is an understatement. He flopped, flailed, and often times miraculously saved his way into super stardom. Many rate Hasek as the greatest goalie of all time. I have him 2nd with the main reason being Patrick Roy played the majority of his career in the highest scoring era in hockey history, and Roy's superior postseason credentials. Hasek played the majority of his career in more favorable conditions for defense and goalies. Now, that does not mean what Hasek did wasn't amazing. It certainly was. He's the only goalie to win the Hart trophy twice and he did it in back to back seasons. Plus he was a finalist 3 other times. He owns the most Vezina's (6) in the current era of trophy being awarded to the most outstanding goalie as voted by GM's (this started in 1982). Even still only Jacques Plante has more (7). He's a 6 time 1st Team AS. He led the league in Save % 6 straight seasons from 93-94 to 98-99. He's the NHL's all time leader in save (unless you count Tukka Rask) Hasek's postseason career is certainly not bad, in fact his numbers are quite good but its a much smaller sample size than other contemporaries. He did win 1 SC as a starter for a powerhouse Detroit team in 2002, but was good rather than great. But there were times when other goalies out dueled him in key series. (See Belfour in 99, Kolzig in 98, or Johan Hedberg in 01). Again, Hasek generally played well or even great but there isn't enough sample size IMO to bridge the gap between he and Roy. As it were, Hasek's incredible regular season resume is impossible to ignore. That, coupled with his style and ability in lifting average teams to better heights is why he is ranked so highly.

-bio by EagleBelfour: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42863237&postcount=9


16. Red Kelly
-Red Kelly is one of the best examples of an elite versatile player. Kelly was a superstar defensemen for Detroit from the late 40's through the end of the 50's, being overshadowed only by Doug Harvey, and then transitioned into a key forward for the Leafs dynasty of the 60's under Punch Imlach. If I had to compare him to a more modern legend it would be Nicklas Lidstrom, a fellow Red Wing, although Kelly was a feared fighter in his day, something Lidstrom never got involved with. Kelly was a swift skating, superb offensive dman, a predecessor to Bobby Orr, with his uncanny ability to rush the puck up the ice as well as making pinpoint passes along the way. And he was just as great defensively, using a much more Lidstrom like approach to break up opposing rushes. He saw plays before they happened and used positioning, skating, and smarts to shut the door on other teams top players. Kelly won the inaugural Norris trophy in 1954 and likely would have won the previous 3 had it existed as he was a unanimous 1st Team AS from 1951 to 1953. And after 1954 he was a finalist 3 more times losing out to Harvey each time. He was an 8 time postseason AS. Kelly also lifted the Lady Byng trophy on 4 separate occasions. While he was never an AS caliber forward, he was a key two way centerman for the great Leafs teams of the 60's. He was particularly strong in the 63 and 64 Cup finals. All in all Kelly won 8 Stanley Cups.

bio by BenchBrawl: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42825019&postcount=6


17. Jacques Plante
-Jacques Plante was a hellova goalie. One can see that by his accolades, numbers, and SC victories. But more than that he was an innovator. He wasn't the first goalie to ever wear a mask, but he was the first to do so with regularity. He not only designed his own but for others as well. Plante was the first goalie to venture outside the crease area and play the puck behind the net and also transitioned the puck to his skaters. He was a studious player and really perfected the stand up style of goaltending. While Plante had the good fortune of playing on some of the most dominant teams in history, he wasn't just along for the ride. While the Vezina went to the goalie who's team gave up the fewest amount of goals in a season, Plante won 7, the most all time. He was a 7 time postseason AS and he won the Hart trophy in 1962. He retired with 437 wins wins, just 10 shy of Terry Sawchuk all time. He also retired with the 4th most shutouts all time at 82. And while Dominik Hasek and Glenn Hall had better regular season resumes, Plante was generally amazing in the postseason. He was on 6 Stanley Cup winners. His performance in 1960 is one of the greatest of all time, where he gave up just 11 goals in 8 games which saw Montreal go 8-0. During their run of 5 consecutive Cup wins, Montreal gave up just 92 goals in 49 games, which is only a 1.88 GAA. And if that wasn't enough, he was absolutely amazing for the recently created St Louis Blues as a 40 and 41 year old netminder. He was 12-3 while surrendering just 22 goals between the 69 and 70 postseason.

-bio by hawkeytown. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=61195485&postcount=136


18. Stan Mikita
-Anyone want to get some donuts at Stan Mikita's? Ok, Wayne's World aside, I'm a big fan of Mikita the player. Studying history I've grown to love his game more and more. He was a complete player, extremely gifted offensively, especially as a play maker and his hockey IQ was off the charts. He's one of the greatest face off men of all time and his defensive game evolved and became an real asset (id say good but not great). He wasn't afraid to mix it up and was quite the physical player, especially early in his career but he became smarter about his physicality by the mid 60's. Mikita put up great numbers in an era filled with offensive studs. He won 4 Art Ross trophies, and was 2nd or 3rd another 4 times in points. He's top 8 in both 7 and 10 year VsX studies showing incredible longevity as a scorer. Mikita won back to back Hart trophies in 67 and 68 and was top 5 another 3 times. Mikita ended up a Stanley Cup champion once, but managed to basically be a point per game player throughout out his career in the players scoring 150 points in 155 games. In 1974 The World Almanac Guide to Pro Hockey conducted a players poll when Mikita was 34. He ranked 2nd in best playmaker category behind Bobby Orr, tied for 1st with Bobby Orr in stickhandling, was 3rd as Team Leader, 2nd as Smartest Player, and 2nd in Faceoffs.

-bio by seventieslord. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=24150871&postcount=44


19. Denis Potvin
-Potvin was the original building block for the 80's Islander dynasty. He joined a bottom feeding franchise that won all of 12 games and lost 60 in the 72-73 season. By his 2nd season, the Islanders were a playoff team, going 33-25-22, where they pushed the eventual Stanley Cup champion Flyers to 7 games in the Conference Finals. A 21 year old Potvin was spectacular vs Philly. He had great leadership qualities, even at a young age, and was a fearless, physical player, as well as skilled both in the offensive and defensive ends. And Potvin could play multiple styles of hockey. If you wanted a brutish, rugged style, he dominated. Play a finesse game where skill took over? Potvin would thrive there as well. With the subsequent additions of Bryan Trottier, Mike Bossy, and role players like Butch Goring, the Islanders owned the NHL from 1980 through 1983, winning 4 consecutive titles. And Potvin was the bedrock of that dynasty. Over those 4 runs Potvin notched 85 points in 78 games and was a +57. Overall, Potvin won 3 Norris Trophies (with 3 other finalist nods), with stiff competition during his playing days, that included Bobby Orr, Larry Robinson, Brad Park, Borje Salming, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe. Losing to Randy Carlyle in 1981 was a farce by most accounts. He was a 7 time postseason AS, led the league among defensemen in scoring 3 times, with 3 2nd place finishes, and was used very heavily on both the power play and penalty kill and was hugely effective in both roles.

bio by velociraptor: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42820895&postcount=5


20. Martin Brodeur
-This might be the first "shock ranking" for some but I have a ton of respect for what Martin Brodeur accomplished in his long and illustrious career. I've felt the boards often underrated Brodeur because of the era, teams he played on, and more importantly the defensive structure of those teams. While those were certainly all factors to one degree or another, I think it is quite disrespectful to Brodeur on the whole. Consider some of the insane numbers Marty put up. 691 wins. Most all time. Next closest? Patrick Roy who has 140 fewer. 3rd place is more than 200 wins behind. 125 shutouts which shattered what many thought was an unbreakable record of 103 by Terry Sawchuk. People try and use his games played (both single season and career) as some sort of negative. I have a completely different view. The fact that Broduer was so durable for as long as he was, is remarkable. Consider he played 70 or more games 12 times! Patrick Roy did that exactly 0 times. To have that kind of workload and still produce good to great numbers consistently is amazing. He won 4 Vezina's. 2 during the end of the lower scoring DPE, and 2 directly after the lockout when scoring jumped considerably. Look at his Vezina win in 2006-07. The only goalie to face more shots was Miikka Kiprusoff and Brodeur had the best SV% of any goalie with at least 50 starts. He also had 12 shutouts, 4 more than Hasek. Besides his 4 Vezina wins, he was a finalist another 5 times. He was top 5 in Hart voting 7 times. He was a 7 time post season all star. Brodeur was spectacular at the 2002 Olympic games, where he helped Canada win gold and was again amazing in 2004 at the World Cup of Hockey, where he allowed only 5 goals in 5 games, posting a .951 SV%. He won 3 Stanley Cups. and was spectacular especially in 1995. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1185967 Hockey Outsider illustrates how amazing Brodeur was in 1995 in the link provided above.

Also check out the Support Neutral Wins & losses. In the following link http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1726821 quoipourquoi provides insight to save percentages vs average opponents shooting %'s in the postseason.

Brodeur has multiple seasons show up as exceptional. And last but certainly not least, there are many folks who gloss over or undersell Brodeurs dominance as a puck retrieval/handling goalie. I personally believe having watched a large portion of his career, he's the best puck handling goalie of my lifetime. And it contributed much more than people realize/want to admit to the style of hockey played by the Devils, especially in the DPE. Hell, the league created the trapezoid directly because of Brodeur's dominance at getting to and moving pucks efficiently to his teammates, which often times suppressed forechecking efforts. Brodeur's write up is longer than most because I wanted to expand more on a ranking that might surprise some, but to me is absolutely warranted.

-bio by Dreakmur. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43132793&postcount=22


21. Howie Morenz
-Howie Morenz was arguably the best player of the early post consolidation era in hockey. He had elite speed, which played up and down the rink and was without a doubt the best all round player going plus the most popular guy in hockey. His stick/puck handling was incredible. He won 3 Hart trophies (and a runner up once more) 3 Stanley Cups, and was an all star on 3 occasions, although by my estimation would have had another 2 nods (25 and 28) had the AS awards been around before 1931. The reasons I have him slightly lower than most is because I'm just not sure how dominant he was compared to the mythical, folk hero lure you read about. He was a great goal scorer, but not the best of the era (see Conacher and Cook). I do feel his play making is underrated actually, but still bested by players like Frank Boucher and Joe Primeau over the same time period. While he was good defensively, there is far more evidence from contemporary sources we've gathered that others were better (see Nighbor, Boucher, Hooley Smith etc). He led the league in goals once, assists once and points twice. His 7 and 10 year (especially here) peak scoring values aren't considerably better than Frank Boucher, Bill Cook or Nels Stewart (to be fair Morenz was FAR more well rounded than the latter 2). His playoff career is very inconstant, especially after post consolidation in 1927 (just 15 points in 35 games). I have little doubt that Morenz was an elite/amazing player, I just don't see the ridiculous dominance you sometimes find talked about in newspapers 80 years ago. Eddie Shore for example has a stronger peak and depth in terms of Hart voting. People often reference the 1950 press poll showing Morenz's overwhelming dominance as to who was the best player of the first half century. I strongly question the accuracy/bias of that poll given the fact that one, he finished light years ahead of players like Cyclone Taylor, Frank Nighbor, etc, and two, clear Montreal bias is apparent, when the 2nd ranked player (another Hab), Maurice Richard wasn't even halfway through his career in 1950, and did considerable damage as a player post 1950. Either way, Morenz is still one of the all time greats and early superstars of the NHL. I just have him him a touch lower based on my in depth look at his career relative to others.

bio by Dreakmur: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58017755&postcount=4


22. Frank Nighbor
-One of my all time favorite studies. Nighbor is a player who has continually risen among hfboards members, especially in the HoH and ATD sections. Nighbor is one of the greatest two way players in the history of hockey. King Clancy, Howie Morenz, Cyclone Taylor and one of the greatest quotes one could find on the subject, the legendary Frank Selke talking about Nighbor in 1962:

"With all due respect to the many wonderful players who have come and gone since 1900, there are few who could be rated above Frank Nighbor. Someone once called him the "peerless centre," and I can think of no label which would have been more apt. We always felt he could have played a complete game of hockey in formal attire without even putting a wrinkle in his suit. He was a leading scorer, an expert passer and a play maker; and no rival forward could come close to him in defensive skill. Along with Jack Walker he developed the poke-check to such an extent that his contemporaries were forced to revamp completely their style of play in order to cope with him.....It is hard to say whether Morenz' style of play was more effective than Nighbor's, but there was this difference--Nighbor was so letter-perfect that a spectator could fall asleep watching him play, knowing just what was going to happen"

I'll leave this ATD bio done on Nighbor as the official read as to why he is and should be ranked so highly.

-bio by nik jr. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=23959895&postcount=22


23. Cyclone Taylor
-If you want an accurate description of Cyclone Taylor's abilities, look no further than the legend Lester Patrick speaking about Taylor. "He was as near perfection as we shall probably ever see. He had the speed of Morenz, the grade of Bun Cook, the poke check of Frank Boucher, the shot of Tom Phillips." Taylor dominated the competition wherever he played, which happened to be out west for much of his storied career in the very competitive PCHA. He played everywhere. Rover, Centerman, and on defense and excelled regardless of his role or position. Early in his career he was a defensemen and was among the leading scorers in both the ECAHA (he won the league title and Ottawa became the SC holders in 1909) and NHA before moving out west and playing predominately rover/center in Vacouver. To get a good idea of how dominant Taylor was, please read the following bio/studies. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php p=98865371&postcount=50

Here is a study showing Taylor's scoring finishes if you consolidated all the major pro leagues after 1912 (not players like Newsy Lalonde come up well short):
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43086119&postcount=947


24. Phil Esposito
-One has to wonder how a player like Esposito with his ridiculous numbers would rank outside the top 20. He won the Art Ross 5 times in 6 years. He won 6 consecutive goal scoring titles from 1970 through 1975, including 76 in 78 games in the 1970-71 season. He won the Hart twice (was a finalist 3 more times), the Pearson twice, and was an 8 time postseason AS in a row from 68 through 75. Oh, and he led the postseason in scoring 3 times while helping Boston win a pair of SC's. His post consolidation numbers are bested only by Wayne Gretzky in the 7 year peak version and Gretzky/Howe in the 10 year project. At the end of the day, some context is required and that context is Bobby Orr. Consider Esposito's first big jump in production came the year Orr won his first Norris (67-68). And the following year he went even higher, with an increase of more than 40 points while Orr played his first (near) full season. Look at Esposito's last really dominant offensive season, which was 74-75. Just happens to be the last full year Orr played and dominated. The next year Espo played most of the season with the Rangers and was just over a point per game, a far cry from where he was the year before in Boston. Look, at the end of the day Esposito is an all time great. His goal scoring numbers are incredible, he was an underrated passer and had very good hockey IQ. He owned the slot and net areas for much of his career and did most of his damage from there. One just has to remember that context aka Bobby Orr plays some part in Esposito's story.

bio by TDMM: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58287953&postcount=17


25. Larry Robinson
-Big Bird was a hellova player for Montreal, for a long time. He was the complete package on the blue line. He could skate well for a big man, pass at a high rate of success, had a heavy shot, was incredibly physical up and down the ice and kept the crease clear at an elite rate for the likes of Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy. He was a huge part of 6 Cup winning teams, and posted some very high end playoff runs along the way, namely in 1978 when he won the Conn Smythe. But make no mistake he had other great runs as well (basically all 4 of the Bowman led Cup winners + 86 and 87 when he was in his mid 30's). While he "only" won 2 Norris trophies (tough era for Dmen) he had another 4 top 3 finishes, and was a 7 time AS. He was very much like Chris Chelios just with more offense and a higher postseason peak to his name.

bio by papershoes: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=79971119&postcount=54


26. Guy Lafleur
-Incredible peak, lacks any longevity. Still the man to stop on those amazing Scotty Bowman led Habs teams.

-bio by seventieslord: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=129242809&postcount=62


27. Jaromir Jagr
-Jagr's scoring and offensive peak are amazing. 5 Art Ross's, 3 Pearsons, and a Hart trophy, his regular season resume is better than 27 and the fact that he was able to be an effective player well past 40 is remarkable in today's game. But I question his playoff resume, even if he has 201 career points. Wasn't enough a factor at 18 and 19 (which is to be expected) on the back to back Pens title teams and after that there are many what ifs, with no titles to speak of.

bio by BraveCanadian: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58097487&postcount=11


28. Glenn Hall
-Tremendous regular season resume but inconsistencies in the playoffs push him down further than he could have ended up.

-bio by billyshoe: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=79413485&postcount=23


29. Bryan Trottier
-Trottier and the next player, Bobby Clarke are very close to one another for good reason. Both played a similar style. Both players had similar offensive outputs. Trots and Clarke both excelled defensively, in the dot, and were incredily rugged characters. Although on paper it looks like Clarke was a little better in the regular season, Trottier faced tougher competition at forward in the early to mid 80's. Trottier still managed to win a Hart trophy while being a runner up twice. Trottier also won a scoring title something Clarke never did. And I think on the whole Trottier delivered in the postseason by a much wider margin than Clarke did. Consider in the 4 consecutive title runs, Trottier scored 29 points 3 straight years, 107 points overall in 75 games while playing great defense along the way collecting a Conn Smythe in 1980.

bio by BraveCanadian: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30579840&postcount=16


30. Bobby Clarke
-Incredible two way player and leader. Helped put Philly on the map and his style of play exemplified the Broad Street Bullies of the mid 70's.

-bio by Dreakmur. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=96292887&postcount=4


31. Terry Sawchuk
-Sawchuk's career can be broken down into 2 halves IMO. The first half, he was thought by many to be the best goalie in the world. He led the league in wins 5 consecutive times at one point, was an AS each of those 5 years, won a Calder, 3 Vezina's, 3 shutout titles, 3 Stanley Cup titles, including, quite possibly the most dominant playoff effort in history, 1952, when the Red Wings went 8-0, giving up just 5 (yep, 5) goals in those 8 games. Sawchuk posted 4 shutouts and 0.62 GAA. They crushed a loaded Montreal team in the finals, which saw Maurice Richard, Dickie Moore and Doug Harvey combine for 0 points over 4 games. Still one of the most remarkable achievements I've ever seen when looking back through hockey history. The 2nd half of his career had Sawchuk as much more of a compiler in my estimation. His numbers often dropped drastically, the Wings almost always coming up short in the postseason. After 1960 he was an AS goalie just once and had one 3rd place finish in the Hart race but again, beyond age 29, there isn't a lot of significance for Terry. Although he did find some old magic in 1967 with Toronto on their Cup run, especially in the 1st round vs a superior Chicago team.

bio by EagleBelfour: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=42918675&postcount=11


32. Ken Dryden
-Dryden with an amazing peak as both regular and postseason player....and then he was gone!

-bio by bubbaboot. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=60085111&postcount=89


33. Chris Chelios
-Chelios would probably rank a bit higher if he had a better offensive peak but as it were I'm a big, big fan and rank him higher than most I think at 33. The key to me is Chelios had such incredible longevity and played in an era with ridiculously good competition at D. Consider he was going against Ray Bourque, Nicklas Lidstrom, Paul Coffey, Al MacInnis, Scott Stevens, Brian Leetch, and others. Despite that he managed to win 3 Norris trophies (with another 3 finalist nods and 11 times in the top 6), was a 7 time post season AS with his final one coming at age 40! And again, he wasn't an offensive force that some of those others I mentioned were above him. While he was quite competent as a point producer, Chelios might have been the best defensive defensemen of the 1990's. He was incredibly tough, a borderline (and sometimes more than) dirty player. His work ethic was legendary. He has some very good playoff runs to his resume, including 3 Stanley Cup wins (although he was more of a bystander for the last one). 1986, 1989, 1992, and 2002 stand out as tremendous marks for Chelios. In the 2002 Cup run, he was 40 years old, and played more than 26 minutes a night (28 in the Cup finals) while scoring 14 points in 23 games and showing a playoff best +15 for the mighty Red Wings.

bio by Hawkey Town 18: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=99933419&postcount=75


34. Joe Sakic
-Burnaby Joe was a remarkable player. Great captain, incredibly classy on and off the ice. His regular season peak numbers are better than Yzerman for example and his playoff resume is filled with OT heroics and a pair of Stanley Cup wins, with a Conn Smythe to his name for an all time great performance in 1996.

-bio by BraveCanadian: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43019657&postcount=15


35. Ted Lindsay
-I'm a big fan of Lindsay. To me, he is one of the most complete wingers of all time. He's a very underrated all time captain and leader as he led the Wings to 3 Cups while serving as captain from 1952 through 1956. Lindsay was one of the toughest SOB's to every play the game, especially given the fact he was a rather small player. He was certainly a max effort guy and absolutely beat the hell out of almost anyone who got in his path. But despite his ruggedness, he was an extremely gifted offensive player. Lindsay won an Art Ross in 1950. He won a goal scoring title in 1948 and a pair of assist titles as well. His 7 and 10 year VsX are extremely impressive at 104.4 (11th all time) and 95.8 (12th all time). He was an incredibly balanced player offensively finishing in the top 10 in goal scoring 10 times, and assists, 8 times. He was a 9 time post seasons AS, (8 1st teams) in the span of 10 years. Also a forgotten aspect to Ted Lindsay's career was that he (and Doug Harvey) led a group of players in secret to form a players association (which would become a union later). For this "betrayal" Lindsay and Harvey were traded from their respective teams. But make no mistake, Lindsay had a huge impact on breaking up the monopoly the owners had over the riches that poured into team coffers. He also got the NHL Hall of Fame to change their rules allowing women and children into the induction ceremony after he refused to attend in 1966. One final and neat fact was that Lindsay is believed to be the first player ever to hoist the SC over his head and actually skate around the rink with it. One of the most influential players on or off the ice in NHL history!

bio by TDMM: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43082771&postcount=20


36. Alex Ovechkin
-Regular season resume is borderline top 10 player of all time. Best goal scorer of the current generation. 6 Richard's. 3 Hart trophies. 3 Ted Lindsay's. 11 time postseason AS (although competition at LW in this era has been weak). At his peak (2008-2010) Ovechkin had a strong argument as being the best player in the world, and that is tough to say as a Penguins fan, but certainly true. He could skate extremely well for a man his size, hit like a mack truck, and created offense completely on his own and his exuberance made him a fan favorite around the NHL. The problem for Ovechkin is he's come up short in the postseason time and time again. He's never been out of the 2nd round, despite playing on some of the most dominant regular season teams of the cap era. 4 number 1 seeded teams including 3 President's trophy winners. Ovechkin in the first few years could claim he wasn't the issue scoring 50 points over his first 37 playoff games. But since then, he's scored just 40 points in his past 60 while showing up a -8 while becoming much, much more one dimensional. It'd be one thing if Ovechkin had the lack of success in the postseason while playing for mostly average teams (like a Marcel Dionne), but that is certainly not the case. It's hard to place a guy that has such drastic differences between regular season and postseason play any higher.


37. Bill Cook
-The premier power forward in the late 20's and early 30's.

-bio by TDMM: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=81338883&postcount=99


38. Mike Bossy
-An incredible pure goal scorer who had a tremendous peak and postseason resume. Career ended earlier than most, which knocks him down into the 38 spot.

bio by JFA87-66-99: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=46071681&postcount=213


39. Newsy Lalonde
-Battled Cyclone Taylor for supremacy in the earliest days of the hockey world. Don't think he was near the complete player that Taylor was though.

-bio by nik jr. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=96239039&postcount=3


40. King Clancy
-Led defensemen in scoring 3 times and was top 5 another 8. Great skater and stick handler, he was one of the toughest players pound for pound when he played. Very talented at both ends of the rink as a defender.

-bio by seventieslord. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=31296314&postcount=88


41. Pierre Pilote
-Another one of my favorites to study. Pilote was the torch holder of best defensemen between Doug Harvey's reign ending and Bobby Orr's emergence in the late 60's. Very good two way dman, he excelled at playing a tough game, blocked a ton of shots and was the best scoring defensemen for most of the 60's. He led the league in scoring among Dmen 5 times and was top 5 another 5. He won 3 consecutive Norris trophies in the mid 60's while being a runner up another 3 times. He was a postseason AS 8 straight years from 1960 through 1967. Pilote had one of the all time great Stanley Cup playoffs by a defensemen in 1961, leading the Blackhaws to their only Cup win of the era, while having the most assists, points and best +/- of all players in the postseason.

bio by leafsforever: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30637277&postcount=26


42. Steve Yzerman
-One of the most interesting aspects to Yzerman's career was the transition from being offensively focused and quite potent throughout the late 80's and early 90's into a Selke caliber/winning centermen under Scotty Bowman in the mid 90's. Incredible leader.

-Long discussion on Yzerman found here. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1078183&highlight=steve+yzerman


43. Earl Seibert
-One of the quieter stars of the 30's and 40's. All he managed to do was earn 10 consecutive postseason AS nods from 1935 through 1944. Incredibly tough player, with players like Eddie Shore and Red Horner steering clear. Blocked shots relentlessly and was an underrated skater and point producer for the era.

-bio by seventieslord: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=129548831&postcount=80


44. Henri Richard
-Winner of 11 Stanley Cups as a player, and one of the all time great two way hockey players in history.

-bio by TDMM. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=30659601&postcount=34


45. Frank Boucher
-He was the gold standard as a play maker in the 20's and 30's. Incredibly talented defensive C and playoff performer as well.

-bio by Sturminator. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=63483113&postcount=260


46. Frank Mahovlich
-Such an underrated player. Overcame terrible anxiety and depression to have a great career both in the regular season and playoffs. Very good longevity.

-bio by EagleBelfour. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43211515&postcount=31


47. Brad Park
-Great defender in the 70's, only really overshadowed by Bobby Orr and then Robinson towards the end of the decade.

-bio by billyshoe. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58198333&postcount=15


48. Andy Bathgate
-Arguably the best play maker (as a wing) in the NHL in the late 50's and early 60's.

-bio by Dreakmur and Rob Scuderi. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=59289439&postcount=59


49. Charlie Conacher
-Battled Bill Cook for goal scoring supremacy in the early 1930's. Led NHL in goals 5 different times.

-bio by Hawkey Town 18: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=81978143&postcount=123


50. Syl Apps Sr
-Very skilled offensive player, who was an incredible captain for Toronto and almost always showed up impressively in the postseason.

-bio by chaosrevolver: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43078437&postcount=17
 
Last edited:

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,394
Short comment :

Utterly dislike : Huge gap between Morenz and Crosby (all things considered).
Really dislike : Enormeous gap between Cyclone Taylor and Newsy Lalonde
Dislike : Andy Bathgate ahead of Charlie Conacher and Bernard Geoffrion. Not saying that Geoffrion had to make it by the way.
Like : No room for Peter Forsberg
Really like : Howe at 3*.
Utterly like : Your 30th to 45th, minus the Taylor/Lalonde conundrum.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,775
7,802
Oblivion Express
Short comment :

Utterly dislike : Huge gap between Morenz and Crosby (all things considered).
Really dislike : Enormeous gap between Cyclone Taylor and Newsy Lalonde
Dislike : Andy Bathgate ahead of Charlie Conacher and Bernard Geoffrion. Not saying that Geoffrion had to make it by the way.
Like : No room for Peter Forsberg
Really like : Howe at 3*.
Utterly like : Your 30th to 45th, minus the Taylor/Lalonde conundrum.

I don't think there is a "huge" gap between Sid and Morenz. :)

I think their regular season resume's are very similar but where Crosby really distances himself is as a postseason player. Morenz was great in pre consolidation play (24 and 25) but see his numbers after 1926. He only has 15 points in 35 games and was almost completely shut down in both the 30 and 31 Cup finals (Montreal wins and guys like Johnny Gagnon and Pit Lepine star). I'm not impressed by Morenz as a playoff performer, especially considering his folk hero/legend status. That is where the gap comes into play.

Plus, fair or not, Sid has value as an international player. I can't simply ignore what he's done for team Canada when evaluating him singularly, but the postseason is where the bulk of that gap exists, IMHO.


Perhaps there is a bit to much a gap between Taylor and Lalonde, but if you look at the crazy good versitility that Taylor offers plus his utter domination of the very strong PCHA and consolidated studies done by Dreakmur, a pretty big gap exists in my mind. I might have stretched it slightly far, but I am higher on Taylor by a good measure.


Bathgate/Conacher/Geoffrion are all right there. I think the impressive thing for me about Bathgate is he didn't have the luxury of playing on the stacked teams you saw in Montreal, Detroit, and Toronto in that time period.

Look at who Bathgate beat out for the Hart in 59 for instance:

Howe
Beliveau
Sawchuk
Moore

That is elite competition.

Thank you for your comments MXD. I really respect your insight and contributions to this forum especially.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Big thumbs up on the list. Like I said before, we'll be looking at having a resource for posters to supply lists like this sometime in the Fall.

Looking at it in chunks of 10 or so players, I'm probably right with you 70-80% of the time. I have a similar gap with the top goalies, but with Hall/Sawchuk in the area where you have Brodeur. Goaltending seems to run dry in the bottom third (33-50) after taking 7 of the first 32.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,775
7,802
Oblivion Express
Big thumbs up on the list. Like I said before, we'll be looking at having a resource for posters to supply lists like this sometime in the Fall.

Looking at it in chunks of 10 or so players, I'm probably right with you 70-80% of the time. I have a similar gap with the top goalies, but with Hall/Sawchuk in the area where you have Brodeur. Goaltending seems to run dry in the bottom third (33-50) after taking 7 of the first 32.

Thanks Q!

I think it won't take long to see guys like Brimsek and Vezina show up once i get to the 51-100 section. I do think a pretty decent sized gap exists between Dryden and the next goalie.
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Thanks Q!

I think it won't take long to see guys like Brimsek and Vezina show up once i get to the 51-100 section. I do think a pretty decent sized gap exists between Dryden and the next goalie.

Probably true - there certainly seems to be some amount of consensus on the names of the top-7 goaltenders, though occasionally a Tretiak, Brimsek, Vezina, or Benedict slips through on media lists. I'm one of those weirdos who has ~25 goalies in his top-100.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,394
(...)


Bathgate/Conacher/Geoffrion are all right there. I think the impressive thing for me about Bathgate is he didn't have the luxury of playing on the stacked teams you saw in Montreal, Detroit, and Toronto in that time period.

(...)

Thank you for your comments MXD. I really respect your insight and contributions to this forum especially.

I really wanted to focus on 6 things (three that I liked, three that I disliked). Praising your work for the 30th to 45th... in a Top-50, was a euphemism to congratulate you (since that was probably the toughest part to logically arrange).

On Conacher : I realized this when doing the wingers project.... Conacher was injured at some point during his prime. You can actually spot the year where he was injured if you look at the goals totals. Like, league-scoring went down by 12% the year he was off, and picked up right afterwards. I wasn't sooo high on Conacher myself until I realized that he was possibly the first (and, inconsequentially to this, the worse) player who could be considered an outlier.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,902
3,557
Edmonton
Disagree with Messier and Crosby both being ahead of Mikita and Morenz

And that's a lot of goalies, not sure if I'm stuck thinking in an ATD mindset tho

Also Lalonde was a far more complete player than Taylor was, if you look at my bio on Taylor from this past year I really struggled to find much that flattered anything but his offence and his skating

Taylor was more Gretzky while Lalonde was more Messier (not in terms of gap but rather in terms of skills or playstyle
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
84,977
137,333
Bojangles Parking Lot
Yes I did, but it seems a little silly to proclaim your top 50 list but still omit people

Not if you're saying "I'm not trying to omit them, I need to do more research and work them in as appropriate, but here's a first draft of what I have so far".

I think he made a reasonable good-faith disclaimer. CCCP/early Euro players aren't easy to rank alongside NHL'ers, that's why we had a whole project dedicated to figuring them out.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,775
7,802
Oblivion Express
ONLY ONE RUSSIAN ON THIS LIST??? Your grandparents must have served in Wehrmacht or something, or were Gulag survivors, or your ex-wife was Russian, or...

That's actually a good point I totally missed looking for Fetisov and Makarov

Yes I did, but it seems a little silly to proclaim your top 50 list but still omit people


Silly? I specifically stated that I didn't miss those guys. I found it more prudent and easier to get the NHL/early north American league guys knocked out. I will be adding Fetisov and Makarov (the two guys I actually mentioned in the disclaimer because they'd both be top 50) to my top 100 project. Doing cross league comparison of Soviet to NHL is much more difficult than the average person thinks.

But thanks for the ability to put my face in my palms over those comments. ;)
 

Sentinel

Registered User
May 26, 2009
12,758
4,588
New Jersey
www.vvinenglish.com
Ah, I withdraw my objection. I indeed did not read the disclaimer.

I rank Makarov somewhere alongside Bobby Hull. I did a side by side comparison between them a few years ago. Fetisov, Firsov, Kharlamov, and Tretiak should be in the Top 50.

Now my main problems with your list are ranking Lidstrom below Bourque and not having Hasek in your Top 10.
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,516
3,352
Big thumbs up on the list. Like I said before, we'll be looking at having a resource for posters to supply lists like this sometime in the Fall.

The ATD forum also has a master thread stickied somewhere that has access to a lot more bios similar to the ones that are linked here.

Obviously there are a lot of ATD lists there but they have to be taken with a grain of salt because players shift around the list based on team need more than "best player" ranking.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,538
4,911
Not if you're saying "I'm not trying to omit them, I need to do more research and work them in as appropriate, but here's a first draft of what I have so far".
I found it more prudent and easier to get the NHL/early north American league guys knocked out. I will be adding Fetisov and Makarov (the two guys I actually mentioned in the disclaimer because they'd both be top 50) to my top 100 project.

All reasonable. Perhaps you should edit the thread title to highlight that this list is something of a draft without non-NHL Europeans.

The ATD forum also has a master thread stickied somewhere

And this very forum has a sticky that links to that ATD master thread.
 

NoMessi

Registered User
Jan 2, 2009
1,696
453
Nice to get away from the main board and seeing Crosby ranked around where he should be. I don't know exactly where to put him, but 13th is not that bad. I don't accept that Crosby separated himself enough from Malkin and Ovechkin to warrant one omission and one at 36 though.

I have one problem and that is also very common around here. Its that Roy is that much ahead of Hasek when I actually think its the other way around. And also, Brodeur shouldn't be close to them - he might not even make my list.
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,516
3,352
I have one problem and that is also very common around here. Its that Roy is that much ahead of Hasek when I actually think its the other way around.

The thinking is this: They have similar peaks relative to their peers, but Roy has a clearly superior record of playoff performances.
 

ImporterExporter

"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
18,775
7,802
Oblivion Express
Since I knew I'd be getting the "Morenz is to low" treatment, I'll go ahead and break down why he's where he is. :)


Scoring Finishes:


Howie Morenz

1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 7, 10, 10

Sidney Crosby

1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 6

Stan Mikita

1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4

Mark Messier*

2, 3, 5, 5, 7

-Obviously Messier is far behind the other 3, but context is required considering he played 2nd fiddle to Gretzky in Edmonton and also played in the same era as Mario. Plus the overall depth of the 80's and early 90's blows away the 20's and 30's.

And still Morenz is clearly 3rd as a scorer, which is mystifying given Morenz has more folk lure and mythical stuff written by him. Early hockey findings are often ripe with delusions of grandeur especially when it's newspaper articles describing a player.


Also a look at 7 and 10 year VsX


TABLE 1 - BEST SEVEN YEARS, POINTS

Rank|Player|VsX
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.6
2 | Phil Esposito | 130.4
3 | Gordie Howe | 125.5
4 | Mario Lemieux | 119.8
5 | Bobby Orr | 114.8
6 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.2
7 | Bobby Hull | 108.3
8 | Stan Mikita | 107.8
9 | Jean Beliveau | 105.7
10 | Guy Lafleur | 104.5
11 | Ted Lindsay | 104.4
12 | Marcel Dionne | 103.3
13 | Sidney Crosby | 102.4
14 | Maurice Richard | 102.4
15 | Howie Morenz | 102.2
16 | Andy Bathgate | 101.1
17 | Alex Ovechkin | 98.4
18 | Joe Sakic | 97.7
19 | Bill Cowley | 97
20 | Charlie Conacher | 96.2
21 | Bill Cook | 96
22 | Joe Thornton | 95.6
23 | Frank Boucher | 95.1
24 | Mike Bossy | 94.8
25 | Bryan Trottier | 93.7
26 | Steve Yzerman | 93.2
27 | Teemu Selanne | 92.7
28 | Martin St. Louis | 92.4
29 | Syl Apps Sr | 92.4
30 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.3
31 | Evgeni Malkin | 90.7
32 | Bobby Clarke | 90.4
33 | Max Bentley | 90.4
34 | Peter Forsberg | 90.3
35 | Nels Stewart | 90.3
36 | Adam Oates | 90
37 | Bernie Geoffrion | 89.9
38 | Mark Messier | 89.6


TABLE 2 - BEST TEN YEARS, POINTS

Rank|Player|VsX
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 144.7
2 | Gordie Howe | 118.1
3 | Phil Esposito | 117.6
4 | Mario Lemieux | 112
5 | Jaromir Jagr | 105.9
6 | Stan Mikita | 102.5
7 | Bobby Hull | 101.8
8 | Jean Beliveau | 100
9 | Maurice Richard | 97.9
10 | Marcel Dionne | 97.5
11 | Sidney Crosby | 97.4
12 | Ted Lindsay | 95.8
13 | Andy Bathgate | 95.6
14 | Joe Sakic | 94
15 | Alex Ovechkin | 93.5
16 | Bobby Orr | 92.1
17 | Guy Lafleur | 91
18 | Joe Thornton | 90.8
19 | Mike Bossy | 89.4
20 | Howie Morenz | 88.9
21 | Frank Boucher | 88.8
22 | Steve Yzerman | 88.8
23 | Teemu Selanne | 88.7
24 | Bryan Trottier | 87.2
25 | Nels Stewart | 87.1
26 | Bill Cowley | 86.7
27 | Martin St. Louis | 86.3
28 | Adam Oates | 86.2
29 | Jean Ratelle | 85.3
30 | Mark Messier | 85



Hart Trophy Voting:


Morenz:

1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 7,

Crosby:

1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6

Mikita:

1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7

Messier:

1, 1, 2, 9, 9


-Morenz has the most wins with 3, but Crosby probably edges him out when looking at depth of finishes. Mikita is just behind and even Messier manages to not look out of place. This is Crosby>Morenz>Mikita>Messier


AS Finishes:


Morenz*

1, 1, 2

Crosby

1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2

Mikita

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2

Messier

1, 1, 1, 2


-Morenz suffers from the AS award not being around before 1931, but given the information we have otherwise (like Hart voting for example) it's safe to say that Howie would likely have only picked up another 2 AS nods in 1928 (his 1st Hart year) and 1925 (He finished 2nd to Billy Burch in Hart voting). Other years he either finished far to low in the Hart voting (and well behind multiple C's) or didn't place at all. So even if you give him another 2 nods, he's still well behind Crosby and Mikita.

Morenz after the age of 29 was finished as an elite type player, at least offensively. A guy like Messier actually had one of his best seasons after 30 (1992) and another Hart caliber year at age 35. Crosby doesn't seem to be slowing down as he is about to turn 30 and coming off a tremendous year all around, but we'll have to see what transpires there.


Playoff Caliber Players?


-Morenz is easily the weakest playoff performer here. His 2 best playoff performances came prior to consolidation in 1924 and 1925. No question he was great both those years (competition has to be factored in) but after that, which makes up the bulk of his carer?

1927 - 1 goal in 4 games. Out in semi's.

1928 - 0 points in 2 games. Out in round 1.

1929 - 0 points in 3 games. Out in round 1.

1930 - He has 1 goal in the 2 game Cup final. 4 players scored more than he did for Montreal.

1931 - He scores 1 lonely goal in 5 (FIVE) games in Cup final. 5 players score more, including Johnny Gagnon with 4 goals and 6 points.

1932 - 1 goal in 4 games. Knocked out in round 1. 5 players score more.

1933 - Morenz was better with 3 assists in 2 games. Montreal still knocked in quarters.

1934 - 2 points in 2 games. Montreal out in quarters.

1935 - 0 points in 2 games. Hawks out in round 1.

15 points in 35 games after consolidation. And in the 2 years Montreal did win the Cup, Morenz was almost completely shut down. We see far less talented players stepping up.

Other random players totals in same or similar time periods (all post consolidation #'s):

Johnny Gagnon - 24 points in 32 games
Aurele Joliat - 19 in 40
Bill Cook - 24 in 46
Joe Primeau 23 in 38
Charlie Conacher 35 in 49
Harry Oliver 16 in 35


-Mark Messier is quite far ahead in postseason performance. There is reason why he finished where he did in the recently completed top 40 HoH playoff performer project. Crosby is clearly 2nd here, especially given the events of the last 2 years. Mikita is 3rd, and Morenz last. I don't think anyone would debate this unless you want to Cup count which is pointless to anyone knowledgeable.


Defensive Abilities?


-Another area where Morenz is overrated (as is Mikita to be fair). Go back and read the contemporary evidence and compare him to others of the era. You can find about 10-12 or so reliable pieces of information about his back checking efforts, and speed being used to defend. It's often generic praise for his efforts rather than in depth analysis. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58017755&postcount=4

Go back and read up on Frank Nighbor. Or Frank Boucher. Cooney Weiland, Hooley Smith, Jack Walker, etc, etc. Nighbor especially you could write a novel regarding his defensive brilliance.

Morenz was no doubt a good defensive player but the notion he was the best or near the best, is outrageous.

Mikita is another guy who often gets overrated defensively but we at least know he was one of the best face off men in history.

Crosby has only, over the past 2-3 years started to get to a point where you can point to his defensive game as a real plus (and not just capable) so he's last of the bunch.

To me Messier rules this group, with Mikita and Morenz fighting for 2nd and Crosby in last, but certainly solid. Messier passes the eye test and if you use that against the rather weak evidence of players who most of us didn't see (Morenz/Mikita), he's tops.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,980
Brooklyn
Disagree with Messier and Crosby both being ahead of Mikita and Morenz

And that's a lot of goalies, not sure if I'm stuck thinking in an ATD mindset tho

Also Lalonde was a far more complete player than Taylor was, if you look at my bio on Taylor from this past year I really struggled to find much that flattered anything but his offence and his skating

Taylor was more Gretzky while Lalonde was more Messier (not in terms of gap but rather in terms of skills or playstyle

My reading on Taylor is that he was a better defensive player than Lalonde, but Lalonde had the physicality and leadership.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
Nice list.

Bossy & Lalonde seem underrated.

Good to see Bathgate on the list.

Brodeur indeed a shock ranking.

Like where Hall is slotted.
 

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