My 2 cents on the Habs taking Price and maguire being an idiot.....

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by shayne, Jul 31, 2005.

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  1. shayne

    shayne Registered User

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    I thought it was interesting to here Brian Burke ( talking about why he took a forward and not a defensemen when he had lots of forwards and few defense prospects)

    Burke said that you should draft the best player and a "GM's" job is to take the assets and use them to fill a teams hole, basically you never draft for present need because your needs may be different by the time the player can contribute.

    then 5 minutes later, the Habs draft the the number 1 goalie available in the draft and the player that Andre savard, Trevor Timmins, Trent McLeary and rollie melanson felt was the best player in the draft at number 5 regardless if they had theodore, huet, halak, danis, michaud etc

    I was abit surprised because i wanted Ryan or brule , i had some reservations about pouliot because he has had one good year and Kopitar could be a special player or a player who is the best in a non hockey nation but not good enough to take the next step like Luca Cereda a swiss can't miss that missed.

    I look forward to watching Price develop, hopeful start for the WJ team at Christmas and turn into a number 1 goalie for the Habs in years to come.

    Sure i was surprised but i should not have been, i never saw any of brule, kopitar or price play, i will trust Gainey and his crew and i like what Burke said, i thought Maguire was an idiot.

    cheers
     
  2. Vagrant

    Vagrant The Czech Condor

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    It was also said that you draft assets. While Price may in fact be a great player down the road one day, he probably has the most bust potential of any of the other players selected in the Top 5 due to the fact that he's a goaltender, and goaltenders by nature are a very fickle bunch.

    With the current position that Montreal is in with their talented goaltenders in the system, they should have taken a forward or a defenseman. There are no two ways around that. The fact of the matter is that Gainey went off and tried to swing a homerun, if it works out then it works out. If he strikes out, he just wasted a Top 5 pick on a player that may not potentially contribute to his team ever, or if he does it will be at least 3-4 years down the road and perhaps longer. Look back to the 2001 draft with its two highly touted goaltenders. Dan Blackburn and Pascal Leclaire. Neither have made immediate impacts for their respective teams, but both had franchise caliber goaltender potential. Columbus in particular passed on Tuomo Ruutu, who went one spot behind Leclaire. Had Columbus taken Ruutu instead of Leclaire, there is a good chance they may have created a dynamic duo a year earlier with Ruutu, Nash, and Zherdev. Tell me that Dan Hamhuis wouldn't look amazing on the Rangers blueline right now as well.

    It's all about potential, but I remain firm in the fact that spending the #5 pick on Price was bad asset management, and poor game planning on the part of the Montreal organization. You don't draft for need always unless the player can contribute right away, but you don't draft to strength when you're a team that has holes in the organizational depth chart like Montreal.
     
  3. Don't stop with LeClaire and Blackburn; here you go:
    2003: 1. Marc-Andre Fleury (Penguins starter)
    2000: 1. Rick DiPietro (Isles starter) 9. Brent Krahn
    1999: 6. Brian Finley 22. Maxime Ouellet 27. Ari Ahonen
    1998: 14. Patrcik DeRoschers 15. Mathieu Chouinard
    1997: 4. Roberto Luongo (Panthers starter) 21. Mika Noronen 24. JF Damphousse
    1996: 23. Craig Hillier
    1995: 13. JS Giguere (Ducks starter) 16. Martin Biron (Buffalo starter?) 22. Brian Boucher (Coyote starter) 25. Marc Denis (Columbus starter)
    1994: 7. Jamie Storr 16 Eric Fichaud 21. Evgeny Ryabichikov 26. Dan Cloutier (Canucks starter)
    1993: 10. Jocelyn Thibault (UFA Starter)
    1992: none
    1991: none
    1990: 11. Trevor Kidd 20. Martin Brodeur (New Jersey Starter)
    1989: 19. Olaf Kolzig (Capitals starter)
    1988: 21. Jason Muzzatti
    1987: 8. Jimmy Waite
     
    Last edited by moderator : Jul 31, 2005
  4. loudi94

    loudi94 Master of my Domain

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    Aside from trading down, there was no other player available at #5 that would fill an immediate need. Brule is small, the Habs have small in abundance.
     
  5. JonathanTwinkleToews

    JonathanTwinkleToews is a Canuck fan.

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    Brule is small, and Habs have small in abundance. But they don't have a small forward who is overflowing with raw offensive talent...
     
  6. silver cup

    silver cup Registered User

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    Lol...Brule or anyone else they could have drafted has just as much chance to bust as Price. It's not like they went way off the board. Price would have been drafted in the next 5 picks. They obviously had Price rated higher than everyone else when it was their turn to pick, so they drafted the BPA. Good pick in my eyes.
     
  7. CH Wizard

    CH Wizard Guest

    Perezhogin has all the talent, in the world, same for Corey Locke.Their size will be an issue.We're tired of having small skilled forwards, in our system.Our scouts were pissed off badly when Pouliot was picked one spot earlier.

    I'm sure their lists were

    1 Johnson
    2 Pouliot
    3 Price
    4 Brule....etc...
     
  8. Above I posted the first rounders, here are the remaining teams' starters with their draft position:

    Boston Raycroft: 135
    Calgary Kiprusoff: 116
    Carolina Gerber: 232
    Colorado Aebischer: 161
    Dallas Turco: 124
    Detroit:
    Edmonton Conklin: Free Agent; Markkanen: 133
    Los Angeles Garon: 44
    Minnesota Roloson: Free Agent; Fernandez: 52
    Montreal Theodore: 44
    Nashville Vokoun:226
    NY Rangers Weekes: 41
    Ottawa Hasek: 207 (aberration because of communism)
    Philadelphia Esche: 139
    St Louis Lalime: 156
    San Jose Nabokov: 219
    Tampa
    Toronto Belfour: Free Agent

    UFA #1 goalies:
    Cujo: Free Agent
    Khabibulin 204 (aberration because of communism)
     
  9. Vagrant

    Vagrant The Czech Condor

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    Mayor Mac, you have to also take into account how many of those selections are playing for the team that drafted them. It does no good for Montreal for Price to leave via free agency or traded below his value, goes elsewhere and becomes a superstar.

    JS Giguere was drafted by Hartford, who recieved very little in real compensation for the caliber of goaltender he is.

    Thibault was drafted by Quebec, and is now a starter for Chicago. No help there.

    Brian Boucher was drafted by Philidelphia, who recieved a few good years from him but never really grabbed the franchise goaltender role.

    Roberto Luongo, as well all know, was drafted by the Islanders and subsequently traded away after that.

    Dan Cloutier was drafted by the Rangers, and never did much work for them.

    That leaves Kolzig, Broduer,`and Biron as the only established goaltenders to be drafted, trained, and played at a high level by their respective franchise since 1987. Kolzig and Broduer are the only "Franchise" caliber goaltenders on that list at all. The rest, were given away for peanuts and went to thrive elsewhere.

    DiPietro and Fluery are still far away from the "Franchise" goaltender tag.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2005
  10. MasterD

    MasterD Registered User

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    True, but then again keep in mind we're talking about the Habs here. We hae developped our goalies for the last what, 25 years? Roy was our pick, theo was our pick, Garon was our pick, Vokoun got traded but we developped him, and before that I'm pretty sure Jacques Plante was a Habs pick, etc etc.. We have a great history of picking goalies and developping them
     
  11. Broadway Brett

    Broadway Brett Registered User

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    Blackburn got injured. He was well on his way to being a franchise goaltender before the injury. Now, he needs two blockers, and he can't wear a glove. So blaming the Rangers for that pick and saying that it was a bad pick is unfair.
     
  12. Ville Isopaa

    Ville Isopaa Registered User

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    Denis was drafted by Colorado, not Columbus.
     
  13. Dr Quincy

    Dr Quincy Registered User

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    I'm a Habs fan and I'm very disappointed in the Price pick. It seems to me that Price doesn't fill a need AND he wasn't the best player available. Yes Brule is small and yes Kopitar has question marks, but I think they both have bigger upsides than Price.

    That said I love the Latendresse pick.
     
  14. Vagrant

    Vagrant The Czech Condor

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    Well, I didn't mean it was a bad pick for them at the time. It's a totally differant situation. At the time, the Rangers needed a goaltender in the worst way. They drafted one, but simply rushed him along. The pick was solid, the management of that pick after was the problem.

    Blackburn wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire even before the injury, which proves that it takes a great deal of time, even for a talented prospect, to develop into something useable when it's a goaltender.
     
  15. Vagrant

    Vagrant The Czech Condor

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    Confirms my point even more.
     
  16. Crusher20

    Crusher20 Registered User

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    Perezhogin might/could do as much as Brule.. if not more.
    and perezhogin is bigger at 5'11'' around 180.. seriously, when i saw Brule on TV he looked smaller than what i tought.. look small for someone who plays that big.. injuries could be a factor.

    dont forget a entered the MIGHT/COULD/IF
     
  17. turnbuckle*

    turnbuckle* Guest

    I always get a kick out of the post-draft hype - McGuire overreacts and posters follow suit.

    I don't see people criticizing Atlanta for picking Lehtonen even higher; you can't go into the draft assuming all goalie prospects will flop or you'll never have any good ones in your system.

    Fact is , goalies are the hardest to rate. Fleury was ranked number four going into the draft, he was picked first. Dipietro was ranked anywhere from third to 7th, he went first. Price was ranked 7th on most pre-draft charts, he went fifth.
    What about Ottawa using the 9th pick on a player ranked by most to go in the mid to late teens or higher? Is that okay because McGuire said it is?

    Another thing people seem to be ignoring is Price's development. He is still only 17 years old, but he has 100 WHL games under his belt, with an impressive GAA and SP. He participated in two under 18 championships last year and has a gold and silver medal from it. He'll be ready for NHL action sooner than later, I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing in the league at 21 years of age, just like Lehtonen and Dipietro. Blackburn was an NHL regular at 18-19, and save for injuries he'd already have about 200 NHL games under his belt at a young age, more than most power forwards at the same age.

    Defencemen and power forwards can take as long or longer to crack the NHL than premiere young goalies, so I don't buy the argument that you don't take a goalie under the new CBA because they take longer to develop. Price is a long way along in his devlopment, much further along than Fleury was at 17, with the resume (including more games played) to back it up. Three years of junior (he played Junior B at 15), starting playoff goalie for his team in his rookie year at the tender age of 16, third in minutes played among WHL goalies as a 17-year-old.

    I wouldn't be suprised to see Price signed and playing in the AHL next season, and after two years of apprenticing in the AHL, graduate to the Habs after just turning 21. Will Kopitar be playing in the NHL sooner? Perhaps. Will Jack Johnsoin or Pouliot be playing in the NHL before Price? Maybe.

    How long would it have taken Brule to crack the Hab's deep center group? Brule's at least three years of development away from taking a center spot in Montreall IMO, Chippy will be a solid center in two-three year's time, don't forget Plekanec, Higgins is a natural center as well, then there's another small talented center in Locke. Throw in Bonk, Koivu, Begin and Ribeiro and I really don't see a Brule being a Hab regular for three or four seasons, no sooner than Price will crack the lineup.

    Montreal's goalie depth was indeed lacking after the trade of Garon and uinfortunate knee injury to Huet. There's no guarantee that Huet will bounce back. Torn up knees are not good for 30-something goalies' careers as a rule.

    Danis isn't a lock to be a starting goalie (I don't see him as a top-notch starter), and Theo, who has shown a preference in the past for money over the team concept, will be a UFA starting next season. He may be around for a year, two years, four years. Without Price, Montreal's hands are pretty much tied if Theo bombs in a couple of years after signing a new three-year deal. The Habs would have to keep Theo with no up and coming goalie in the system, or trade him for another goalie instead of the team's biggest need - quality defencemen. We all know what happened the last time Montreal made a panic trade involving goalie for goalie. Price's presence gives Gainey much more leverage not only in negotiations with Theo, but leverage in negotiations with other teams involving possible deals for Theo. Other teams will know that Gainey doesn't have to panic.

    Let's say Nashville becomes a strong playoff contender in two year's time, but Vokoun is gone in free agency in two years. The Habs deal Theo for Suter or Weber. A steep price for Nashville, but a hot Theo could take them far in the playoffs. Nashville has so many good young d-men (Klein, Parent, Hamhuis, Suter Weber), that they could afford to part with one if a player like Theo is the missing piece of the puzzle. If Price is ready to step in Montreal can make this sort of deal. Meanwhile, the Habs get an NHL ready defenceman that will play big minuites on their blueline for the next half dozen years at the minimum.

    Suter
    Komisarek
    Souray
    Markov
    Rivet
    Hainsey
    O'Byrne

    Price
    Danis
    Halak

    That blueline looks a lot weaker without Suter or Weber.

    Things could always work the other way as well. Let's say Theo plays great, the city and team loves him, he loves back and signs a long-term deal. Price develops as expected, and three years down the road he's backing up Theo and playing well.

    Do you not think he'll be a valuable asset? I'm pretty sure Atlanta could get quite a bit for Lehtonen....what if Price develops as well as Lehtonen has.......he'd be worth a ton.

    Worst case scenario is that he flops. It's happened before could happen again. That's a risk you take with every pick. For every Storr and Finley, there's a Chyzowski, Shannon, McBean, Warriner, Bonsignore, Kelly, Zyuzin, Volchkov, etc. In fact there's more first round forward flops than goalie flops through history, let alone defencemen.
     
  18. Ville Isopaa

    Ville Isopaa Registered User

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    Well, I do see your point, but I don't think Denis fits to that category. The Denis trade was forced by not being able to protect all 3 goalies in the expansion draft. Colorado picked Aebisher over Denis and Denis went to Columbus. Without the trade he would have been lost for nothing.
     
  19. Vagrant

    Vagrant The Czech Condor

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    In a perfect world, no team would ever like to lose a former first round pick for nothing. However, the selection of Aebsisher over Denis goes to show you that draft position with these types of players means nothing. Aebisher was a 6th round selection of a draft that was just TWO years after having selected Denis with the 25th overall selection. Two years mind you.
     
  20. HABFAN28

    HABFAN28 Registered User

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    Price

    Taking Carey Price was very important for the habs. When Pouliot went 4th they didnn't have any choice but to draft a goalie. Price is a very good prospect.

    A 6'2" goalie is always good and you have to consider the fact that Théo is aging and becoming a UFA by next year so you have to think about the future. Halak will be a bacome NHL goaltender at best and Danis is already 24 years old so he'll be an free agent in 3 years. Who you have left after that? Now we have Price that will be ready in about 3-4 years. Very good choice by that habs.

    You can't miss when you draft 5th overall, and with montreal Roland Melaçon, the best goalie trainer of the nhl, you know Price will become one of the best goalie of the NHL.

    Macguire didn't do is job, he didn't look at what prospect the habs have in their system. Goaltending was a need. Now that Huet is injured, maybe Price will play as a backup to theo. IF not, they'll use Danis, and put HAlak in the ahl so he won't return to the lhjmq as an overager.

    Huet will miss half of the sason this year with is injury.

    When drafting a prospect you take the best prospect available. Price was the best goalie, so if he never plays for the habs he will be a good player that we can trade. If you have the choice between the best goalie or the 4th best forward who do you take? My choice is the best goalie. Just think about it Theo was drafted 44th overall, and he is taken 5th overall, we may have now a Luongo or Brodeur in the making!!!!

    Latendresse and the rest of the prospects taken all have huge upside so i think the habs have made a very good draft this year. Latendresse with better speed should look like Todd Bertuzzi and if not that fast he may look like a John Leclair.

    A powerforward with that much upside in the second round is a very good pick!! In the fourth round they took a good player too and in the 7th round Siareï Kostsisyn!!!

    They're is only two player taken that i don't know about. The american player and Mathieu Aubin. Mathieu Aubin is big but that's about it. And fot the merican player i don't know anything about him. Maybe someone knows a little about them???
     
  21. oilers_guy_eddie

    oilers_guy_eddie Playoffs? PLAYOFFS!?

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    Mcguire's draft day rants are pretty amusing.

    Mayor Mac and others have a good point, though: goalies are harder to project at age 18 than other players. It's riskier.

    Something else to consider: goalies usually take longer to develop. Most goalies aren't NHL regulars until they're in they are 25 or older. When the new UFA age moves down to 27, does spending a high pick on a goalie make a lot of sense?
     
  22. CH Wizard

    CH Wizard Guest

    The CBA will expire in 6 years.Price will be 23...who knows what the fa ages will be in the CBA? We had to take a risk because we sure didn't deserve a 5th overall pick.
     
  23. Chainshot

    Chainshot Give 'em Enough Rope

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    I think that Gainey was willing to accept the risk for the possible return. Yes, Price seems to be a far riskier pick than Brule and much like in investment, there is a measure of acceptable risk that the purchaser has to either committ to or walk away. It is more of a gamble, and I'm sure Gainey knows that.
     
  24. KOMO_ROCKS

    KOMO_ROCKS Registered User

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    Exactly. Sometimes it is good for a team to take a high risk because that usually means the reward will be high if it pays off. I hope this risk pays off for the habs.
     
  25. Beatnik

    Beatnik Registered User

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    So the last first rounder that is a number one goalie was drafted in 1997. Considering the new CBA that means that at best we can hope Price will be a starter for us for only 2 years.

    A top forward for 8-10 years or a goalie for 2-3 years? what a stupid pick.
     
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