My 2 cents on the Habs taking Price and maguire being an idiot.....

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turnbuckle*

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Vlad The Impaler said:
You seem a bit down on Fleury, no?

I think Fleury was drafted for all the promises he holds and I would definitly rate him as one of the better goaltending prospects I have seen.

I'm still a bit uneasy with him because I consider all goalies to be tricky projects and Fleury is the epitome of a goalie with upside. It's really his natural aptitudes that got him all the praises.

He struck me as having massive upside and still does. Showed flashes of brilliance in Pittsburgh. Price seems less of a roller-coaster prospect.

I'm not as enamoured with Fleury as most. He was overhyped as a 17-18-year-old I think, he never had a season close to the one Price just had as a 17-year-old. I think more than anything it's a case of Price being underhyped. Fleury has yet to have a solid season anywhere. When he does I'll be more convinced. His save percentage this season was 90%, and he's never had a SP above .915 in regular duty. He was less than stellar on the world junior stage, including a bonehead move that ultimately led to a gold medal loss. IMO not the stuff legends are made of.

BTW - I don't think the goaltending rules will hurt the goalies who are good with the puck as much as the goalies who aren't; goalies are going to have less room and thus less time to handle the puck behind the net; thus they better be agile and good with the puck. The poor goalies will only screw it up, or not try for the puick at all, giving the attacking team a better chance at forechecking with authority, aka slamming the defencemen into the end boards. The elimination of the blueline only helps a goalie like Price, who will be able to feed the Ribeiros of the league with three-line passes on occasion.
 

Gallagbi

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His time as a 17 year old, 55 GP, 2 SO, 2.78 GAA, and .915 Sav %. It's not like his numbers were way off. Add in he was Canadas starter at the WJC the year before he was drafted. He came from the Q which is a much higher scoring league. The Dub is known for producing gritty 2-way forwards, and big defensive D. Not to say they don't have scorers, but its regarded as a much more well rounded league. It's tough to compare him to Fleury. Time will tell, but stats are a little tougher to compare because the leagues are different.
 

SwisshockeyAcademy

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turnbuckle said:
I always get a kick out of the post-draft hype - McGuire overreacts and posters follow suit.

I don't see people criticizing Atlanta for picking Lehtonen even higher; you can't go into the draft assuming all goalie prospects will flop or you'll never have any good ones in your system.

Fact is , goalies are the hardest to rate. Fleury was ranked number four going into the draft, he was picked first. Dipietro was ranked anywhere from third to 7th, he went first. Price was ranked 7th on most pre-draft charts, he went fifth.
What about Ottawa using the 9th pick on a player ranked by most to go in the mid to late teens or higher? Is that okay because McGuire said it is?

Another thing people seem to be ignoring is Price's development. He is still only 17 years old, but he has 100 WHL games under his belt, with an impressive GAA and SP. He participated in two under 18 championships last year and has a gold and silver medal from it. He'll be ready for NHL action sooner than later, I wouldn't be surprised to see him playing in the league at 21 years of age, just like Lehtonen and Dipietro. Blackburn was an NHL regular at 18-19, and save for injuries he'd already have about 200 NHL games under his belt at a young age, more than most power forwards at the same age.

Defencemen and power forwards can take as long or longer to crack the NHL than premiere young goalies, so I don't buy the argument that you don't take a goalie under the new CBA because they take longer to develop. Price is a long way along in his devlopment, much further along than Fleury was at 17, with the resume (including more games played) to back it up. Three years of junior (he played Junior B at 15), starting playoff goalie for his team in his rookie year at the tender age of 16, third in minutes played among WHL goalies as a 17-year-old.

I wouldn't be suprised to see Price signed and playing in the AHL next season, and after two years of apprenticing in the AHL, graduate to the Habs after just turning 21. Will Kopitar be playing in the NHL sooner? Perhaps. Will Jack Johnsoin or Pouliot be playing in the NHL before Price? Maybe.

How long would it have taken Brule to crack the Hab's deep center group? Brule's at least three years of development away from taking a center spot in Montreall IMO, Chippy will be a solid center in two-three year's time, don't forget Plekanec, Higgins is a natural center as well, then there's another small talented center in Locke. Throw in Bonk, Koivu, Begin and Ribeiro and I really don't see a Brule being a Hab regular for three or four seasons, no sooner than Price will crack the lineup.

Montreal's goalie depth was indeed lacking after the trade of Garon and uinfortunate knee injury to Huet. There's no guarantee that Huet will bounce back. Torn up knees are not good for 30-something goalies' careers as a rule.

Danis isn't a lock to be a starting goalie (I don't see him as a top-notch starter), and Theo, who has shown a preference in the past for money over the team concept, will be a UFA starting next season. He may be around for a year, two years, four years. Without Price, Montreal's hands are pretty much tied if Theo bombs in a couple of years after signing a new three-year deal. The Habs would have to keep Theo with no up and coming goalie in the system, or trade him for another goalie instead of the team's biggest need - quality defencemen. We all know what happened the last time Montreal made a panic trade involving goalie for goalie. Price's presence gives Gainey much more leverage not only in negotiations with Theo, but leverage in negotiations with other teams involving possible deals for Theo. Other teams will know that Gainey doesn't have to panic.

Let's say Nashville becomes a strong playoff contender in two year's time, but Vokoun is gone in free agency in two years. The Habs deal Theo for Suter or Weber. A steep price for Nashville, but a hot Theo could take them far in the playoffs. Nashville has so many good young d-men (Klein, Parent, Hamhuis, Suter Weber), that they could afford to part with one if a player like Theo is the missing piece of the puzzle. If Price is ready to step in Montreal can make this sort of deal. Meanwhile, the Habs get an NHL ready defenceman that will play big minuites on their blueline for the next half dozen years at the minimum.

Suter
Komisarek
Souray
Markov
Rivet
Hainsey
O'Byrne

Price
Danis
Halak

That blueline looks a lot weaker without Suter or Weber.

Things could always work the other way as well. Let's say Theo plays great, the city and team loves him, he loves back and signs a long-term deal. Price develops as expected, and three years down the road he's backing up Theo and playing well.

Do you not think he'll be a valuable asset? I'm pretty sure Atlanta could get quite a bit for Lehtonen....what if Price develops as well as Lehtonen has.......he'd be worth a ton.

Worst case scenario is that he flops. It's happened before could happen again. That's a risk you take with every pick. For every Storr and Finley, there's a Chyzowski, Shannon, McBean, Warriner, Bonsignore, Kelly, Zyuzin, Volchkov, etc. In fact there's more first round forward flops than goalie flops through history, let alone defencemen.
I would bet an awful pile of quid Price will not be in the AHL next year. Unless the CBA has changed its not even legal. He has to be in the NHL or junior. Price is a longer term project than Lehtonen and they play much different styles. Price has some Marty in him but its a ways away from coming out. As long as Lehtonen handles the mental rigors of the NHL he will be a star, i cannot say the same of Price.
 

turnbuckle*

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EazyB97 said:
His time as a 17 year old, 55 GP, 2 SO, 2.78 GAA, and .915 Sav %. It's not like his numbers were way off. Add in he was Canadas starter at the WJC the year before he was drafted. He came from the Q which is a much higher scoring league. The Dub is known for producing gritty 2-way forwards, and big defensive D. Not to say they don't have scorers, but its regarded as a much more well rounded league. It's tough to compare him to Fleury. Time will tell, but stats are a little tougher to compare because the leagues are different.

But they weren't better stats, even in his best year. At some point he has to "Show me."

As for the WJC thing, Fleury was 18 years, 2 months when he played in his first WJC; Price will be 18 years, five months. Don't forget the age thing.

The Dub gets little or no love when it comes to goaltenders either, yet they've produced some solid ones in recent years with good value picks, such as Ward, Pogge, Beauchemin, etc.
 

Jag68Sid87

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HabsFanInNB said:
The Habs always built their teams from the net out. Plante, Worsley, Dryden, Roy, Theodore. A draft is to start stocking the team for 3-5 years down the road. Drafting a top notch goalie is consistent with Habs approach.

Gainey has played with and against some great NHL goalies. I think he knows what he is doing and this will be a great pick.

Just my humble opinion.

How many of those guys were drafted in the first round? Answer: None. Plante and Worsley weren't around in the draft era, Dryden was drafted by Boston, and Roy and Theodore were astute third and second-round selections, respectively. So, you CAN build from the net out WITHOUT spending a first-round pick.

The problem I have with the pick is the attention top-five picks receive. If Carey Price is merely an organizational depth selection, then the Habs could have drafted a Frazee or a Plante or other netminder in Round 2 without grabbing headlines. All this move does is create a 'situation' with Theodore, and when you're dealing with the Montreal media why create any more than you have to?

If they selected him because he was the "Best Player Available", well according to whom? Consensus had at LEAST two (Brule and Kopitar) and possibly three (Staal) guys going before Price. If he was the guy they wanted, then why not move down a couple of slots.

To me, if the Canadiens are comfortable drafting a goaltender fifth overall (the first time they have taken a goalie in Round 1 since Michel Larocque in 1972!) it is because he's going to be the man. In other words, Jose Theodore won't be...much longer.

No. 60 might still be the starting goaltender when training camp starts, and he may survive the season but he's no longer likely to get a multi-year contract. Why would the Canadiens commit to a multi-year deal with their current netminder AND a top-five pick on another netminder? It makes little sense to me.

New Jersey, Atlanta and Florida all spent early picks on young goaltenders, despite the fact they have three of the best assets at the position in the business (Brodeur, Lehtonen and Luongo). But because they did it quietly in the second round, they avoided all of this hoopla involving Price and Theodore. And, knowing the Montreal media like I think I do, this thing could get ugly. In my opinion, it was avoidable (i.e. Price won't be worth the trouble).

As far as the notion that Price was drafted for 3-5 years down the road, well how many top-five picks are still on a team's radar five years later if he hasn't reached the NHL yet? I would say they are in the minority. Most reach, some are dealt, some are complete busts...very few are still "prospects" in my opinion. So, Price should reach the NHL within three years. And if he does, the team isn't going to give Theodore a multi-year contract. What for? These two aren't going to split duties. I would doubt that. There's usually room for only one 'ego' among netminders...and if the kid didn't have an ego before yesterday, he sure as heck has one now that he's a top-five pick. And lastly, what about the salary-cap factor. How many millions of dollars will teams allocate to the No. 2 goaltender down the road? I

Bottom line for me is this...Jose Theodore is a Hart and Vezina Trophy winner. AT HIS BEST, if Price pans out, can he reach the same level? It just seems to me that this falls under the category of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". The club had other needs to fill and the draft would have been a very good way of accomplishing that.

After this move, I'd be stunned if Theodore signs for more than 1 year.
 

turnbuckle*

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SwisshockeyAcademy said:
I would bet an awful pile of quid Price will not be in the AHL next year. Unless the CBA has changed its not even legal. He has to be in the NHL or junior. Price is a longer term project than Lehtonen and they play much different styles. Price has some Marty in him but its a ways away from coming out. As long as Lehtonen handles the mental rigors of the NHL he will be a star, i cannot say the same of Price.

Yep the CBA just changed a couple of weeks ago didn't hear about it? Damn Siwiss hockey academys, keep you away from the news, LOL.

Seriously, you're right I guess, given his age he wouldn't be able to sign until after the season. IMO he could play in the AHL next season, but it's moot I supose. Regardless, I'm betting he'll be challenging for NHL duty within two seasons. I'm hearing too many good things about him, and I want him as close to Rollie and co. as possible.
 

Dr Quincy

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"But there's more", adds Timmins. "He's already as good as Martin Brodeur in handling the puck. And his shot is not a dribbler",

Timmins sounds like a HFboards regular.
 

Blind Gardien

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Dr Quincy said:
Timmins sounds like a HFboards regular.
I bet he would have been, if he hadn't ended up where he is. He strikes me as part of the new wave of hockey geeks in suits... I'm sure there are a dozen Timmins clones banging away here on HFBoards, and they could do just as well in the NHL as some of the pros too.
 

turnbuckle*

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Jag68Vlady27 said:
How many of those guys were drafted in the first round? Answer: None. Plante and Worsley weren't around in the draft era, Dryden was drafted by Boston, and Roy and Theodore were astute third and second-round selections, respectively. So, you CAN build from the net out WITHOUT spending a first-round pick.

The problem I have with the pick is the attention top-five picks receive. If Carey Price is merely an organizational depth selection, then the Habs could have drafted a Frazee or a Plante or other netminder in Round 2 without grabbing headlines. All this move does is create a 'situation' with Theodore, and when you're dealing with the Montreal media why create any more than you have to?

If they selected him because he was the "Best Player Available", well according to whom? Consensus had at LEAST two (Brule and Kopitar) and possibly three (Staal) guys going before Price. If he was the guy they wanted, then why not move down a couple of slots.

Bottom line for me is this...Jose Theodore is a Hart and Vezina Trophy winner. AT HIS BEST, if Price pans out, can he reach the same level? It just seems to me that this falls under the category of "if it ain't broke don't fix it". The club had other needs to fill and the draft would have been a very good way of accomplishing that.

After this move, I'd be stunned if Theodore signs for more than 1 year.

Consensus had Kopitar ahead of Price? Who does Consensus scout for again...New Jersey?

We have no idea what the final scouting lists of the 30 teams said - not a clue. I'm connected with several scouts and I have no clue, not sure how you would know. Fact is, Price was a top 10 pick on all of the pre-drft lists, and Kopitar ended up going 11th overall - tells me there was no such consensus.


As for the "ain't broke don't fix it" gibberish, what if the wheels on that soap box that won the regular season soap box title and then the State title a few years back are a little rusted and wobbling...you just keep racing that thing until the wheels fall off, continuously finishing as the runner up or usually worse, or do you fine tune? What you normally do eventually is build a new and improved soapbox.

I'm getting the distinct impression that there is a lack of chess players in these parts. Many seem incapable of thinking more than one move ahead at a time.

Brule good. Don't know Price. Goalies bad. Draft bad.

Highly insightful.
 

Vlad The Impaler

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Jag68Vlady27 said:
After this move, I'd be stunned if Theodore signs for more than 1 year.

I would think Jose Theodore doesn't give a **** about Carey Price.

If he did, he definitly would have serious issues. If a veteran goalie like him signs a one-year deal because his team just drafted an 18 years goalie, that would be... bizarre to say the least.

I think Theodore will sign based on the deal offered, his perception of the support he can get and his aspirations. If he was to get scared of an 18 years old, he probably would never have won a playoff round.
 

Traitor8

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Price isn't in Theodore's league. Price won't get a shot at the Nhl for at least 3 yrs.. Jose is here to stay.

Concensus at Brule and Kopitar ahead? That's why Kopitar went 11th and someone named Brian Lee went before. Chicago had the 7th pick and they apparently wanted Price...so where do u trade down ..to 6th?

Get over it!! GEEZ! Timmins,Gainey,Savard are great hockey people that know what they are doing.

Look at it this way...Timmins and Savard made the Ottawa Senators... whats the Senators problem now? oh ya..IN NETS!
 

Jag68Sid87

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Vlad,
that wasn't really my point. My point was that the Canadiens can now use the Price selection in negotiating with Theodore. So I expect negotiations to be even stickier than before.
 
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