Value of: Muzzin to MTL

[WhiskeySeven*]

Classic value to the team vs value to the league.

Denault is Montreal's default centre. He's who they match up against the Crosby s, McDavids, and Matthews. He's who they send out to win defensive zone faceoffs and to kill penalties. He's got good chemistry with Montreal's top line (oddly, seems everyone produces better with him) and controls possession on every play.

Without Denault, Montreal is in a worse position than they are now without a LD. I think Muzzin is a better player but Montreal would be worse if there was somehow a swap that saw Muzzin a hab but Denault not on the roster.

You're overrating Danault quite a bit there.

 

[Just Linda]

You're overrating Danault quite a bit there.

I don't quite think my idea got across then. I'm not comparing Denault to the league, just to Montreal's current needs. Without Denault, they don't have someone who can play his role and not get swamped.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

I don't quite think my idea got across then. I'm not comparing Denault to the league, just to Montreal's current needs. Without Denault, they don't have someone who can play his role and not get swamped.

I understand what you're arguing, I'm saying you're overrating Danault's impact vis a vis his value to the Habs.

But you're right that he's a "straw that stirs the drink" kind of player. He does it all but I don't think he is *as* important as a good LD. The Habs really need a good LD.

 

[Just Linda]

I understand what you're arguing, I'm saying you're overrating Danault's impact vis a vis his value to the Habs.

But you're right that he's a "straw that stirs the drink" kind of player. He does it all but I don't think he is *as* important as a good LD. The Habs really need a good LD.

That's certainly true that they do need a LD. With Denault though as their number 1 centre, they're surviving as a fringe playoff team even without a top LD. Without Denault though, I can't see them being anything but a basement dweller. Domi is great at producing but his line isn't exactly the best 2 way line. Kotk is well protected and is doing great but he's not ready to play top line. Right now, without Denault the Habs would get crushed.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

That's certainly true that they do need a LD. With Denault though as their number 1 centre, they're surviving as a fringe playoff team even without a top LD. Without Denault though, I can't see them being anything but a basement dweller. Domi is great at producing but his line isn't exactly the best 2 way line. Kotk is well protected and is doing great but he's not ready to play top line. Right now, without Denault the Habs would get crushed.

Help me understand what I'm looking at in those there charts

 

[howkie]

Mete
Scherbak
Lindgren
2nd round pick

For

Muzzin
Lintuniemi

Bsides Mete, nothing is of real value, and for that you want a top 4 LHD and a 1 rounder?

Only on HF, offer a bunch of random craps.

 

[Just Linda]

Help me understand what I'm looking at in those there charts

Kotk: One of the most sheltered players in the league right now but is making the most of his role
Domi: Defensively, I'd be content with that if he were a 3rd line centre. He's producing hot and punching well above where he should be according to the numbers (the numbers don't show location of shots, neutral zone counters etc here) and shows that he's doing okay (less than good, not nearly bad) against second line caliber opponents. Typically when this type of player moves up the roster, things go bad.
Denault: offensively is producing at the low end of a second line centre but numbers are boosted by teammates. He does though first line numbers in each of the possession metrics while playing against top lines.
Overall: if Denault goes down, Domi can't keep up against top lines and Kotk isn't being utilized enough to draw conclusions.

 

[King'sPawn]

If it were me, I'd rather the Kings get valuable picks or a young prospect who can contribute as early as next season.

Ideally, I'm hoping the Kings could get another first round pick, so while it may be understandably rich for the Canadiens, that's what I would hope for. Pipe dream would be Noah Juulsen, but I'm sure the Kings would have to add.

If the ask is Scherbak + 1st, what would the Kings need to offer on top of Muzzin for Habs fans to consider?

 

[Kraken Jokes]

if the habs are looking for a top 4 d...how is danault untouchable?
he is a 40pt 3rd line C

Habs are in no position to be trading away top-9 Cs.

 

[angry pirate]

If the ask is Scherbak + 1st, what would the Kings need to offer on top of Muzzin for Habs fans to consider?

As a Habs fan I think you are underselling Muzzin here.

I could see the Habs dangling Scherbak and a 1st in a deadline type deal for a rental or rental +1 like Muzzin. But I would think if it's Muzzin, there would have to be one more, semi significant piece coming from the Montreal side. And while I can see it happening, I would still be surprised if MB trades a 1st round pick.

 

[angry pirate]

Historically, I think the closest and most recent comparable trade to a hypothetical Muzzin move is Kris Russell as a true rental from the Flames to the Stars.

Russell Returned, A second round pick from the 14 draft who had a good but not great 19 year old season, a 24/25 year old defencemen with almost 100 NHL games, and a conditional 2nd round pick (don't know the condition, but it was met).

So by comparison, Muzzin is worth something north of; Joni Ikonen, Mike Reilly, and a conditional 2nd rounder. Scherbak instead of Ikonen? 1st instead of a 2nd?

 

[Benstheman]

I'd dangle Lehkonen + a 2nd for short term LHD at the deadline. I would be ready to use Mete and our 1st if we are in contention for medium/long term LHD

 

[Baksfamous112]

I'd dangle Lehkonen + a 2nd for short term LHD at the deadline. I would be ready to use Mete and our 1st if we are in contention for medium/long term LHD

I doubt Lehkonen gets traded anytime soon. Management loves him. He’s even wearing an A this season

 

[Benstheman]

I doubt Lehkonen gets traded anytime soon. Management loves him. He’s even wearing an A this season

I understand. But you need to give something of value to get the help you need.

But just to be clear, i don't think Habs will be in position to add at the deadline. So we won't give good young assest to get short term help.

Habs need big time help on LHD and i don't think management will wait to do this through the draft because of Weber.

Personnally, if we draft top 10 next summer, i keep the pick. If not, i use Mete, our 1st and Lehkonen to get a solid top 2/3 LHD on a contract with good terms (4-5 years)

 

[Liferleafer]

Habs are in no position to be trading away top-9 Cs.

For a top pair D? Hell, i would have traded Bozak for Muzzin in a heartbeat last season (or any season) and he produced more than Danault.

 

[Baksfamous112]

For a top pair D? Hell, i would have traded Bozak for Muzzin in a heartbeat last season (or any season) and he produced more than Danault.

Yeah but the Leafs had Kadri and Matthews on top of Bozak. Montreal doesn’t have that luxury this year. There might be a possibility of Danault + for Muzzin with a ~ 4 years/5.5 per extention at the draft but until then it’s a no from Montreal

 

[Kraken Jokes]

Yeah but the Leafs had Kadri and Matthews on top of Bozak. Montreal doesn’t have that luxury this year. There might be a possibility of Danault + for Muzzin with a ~ 4 years/5.5 per extention at the draft but until then it’s a no from Montreal

I'm astounded that you had to explain this.

 

[Just Linda]

Historically, I think the closest and most recent comparable trade to a hypothetical Muzzin move is Kris Russell as a true rental from the Flames to the Stars.

Russell Returned, A second round pick from the 14 draft who had a good but not great 19 year old season, a 24/25 year old defencemen with almost 100 NHL games, and a conditional 2nd round pick (don't know the condition, but it was met).

So by comparison, Muzzin is worth something north of; Joni Ikonen, Mike Reilly, and a conditional 2nd rounder. Scherbak instead of Ikonen? 1st instead of a 2nd?

I don't think thats quite a far comparison. Russel isn't exactly a Muzzin.

Let me think of other recent d trades for top pairing guys
McDonagh and JT Miller for a first, really good prospects +
Shattenkirk and Copley for first, second, +
Larsson got Hall
PK/ Weber
Yandle+ got a first, second, Duclair +

Seems to me the ask from LA will def be the classic pick, player, prospect and they should settle for no less than 2/3 of that

 

[angry pirate]

I don't think thats quite a far comparison. Russel isn't exactly a Muzzin.

Let me think of other recent d trades for top pairing guys
McDonagh and JT Miller for a first, really good prospects +
Shattenkirk and Copley for first, second, +
Larsson got Hall
PK/ Weber
Yandle+ got a first, second, Duclair +

Seems to me the ask from LA will def be the classic pick, player, prospect and they should settle for no less than 2/3 of that

I think 2016 Russell is pretty comparable to 2018 Muzzin. Both were 29. Both play roughly 23 minutes a night. Russell was coming off of a 35 point season but a UFA. Muzzin coming off a 42 point season but has an extra season. Both players point production is down in the hypothetical trade year.

Muzzin is no McDonagh.
Larsson was 23(24?) and really isn't comparable.
PK/Weber are on a different level.

Malone, Sanford, a 1st and 2nd from Washington is pretty similar to Russell's return. Slightly north.

Yandle itself isn't much differant either. A high ceiling prospect with question marks, a couple of picks, and a 25ish year old defencemen. That to me is ballpark on the Russell trade and as I said in my original post, something north of the Russel trade.

Muzzin has a lot more in common with Russell circa 2016, Shattenkirk, and Yandle than he does with Larsson, PK, Weber, and McDonagh.

So my opinion, for what it's worth, value is as I said, north of Russell, if not slightly south of Yandle. But they are in the same ballpark.

 

[PKWeber]

OP is a Habs fan but he doesn’t know what his team needs lmao. Adding a slow D-man who is about to turn 30 would be very dumb for the Habs.

 

[Kraken Jokes]

OP is a Habs fan but he doesn’t know what his team needs lmao. Adding a slow D-man who is about to turn 30 would be very dumb for the Habs.

Yeah, I've seen your proposals. You don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[ole ole]

Muzzin for 1st rd pick + Juulsen/Mete

Ah not a chance.

 

[Lockin17]

Classic value to the team vs value to the league.

Denault is Montreal's default centre. He's who they match up against the Crosby s, McDavids, and Matthews. He's who they send out to win defensive zone faceoffs and to kill penalties. He's got good chemistry with Montreal's top line (oddly, seems everyone produces better with him) and controls possession on every play.

Without Denault, Montreal is in a worse position than they are now without a LD. I think Muzzin is a better player but Montreal would be worse if there was somehow a swap that saw Muzzin a hab but Denault not on the roster.

Totaly agree

 

[KingCanadain1976]

reading this Habs fans should take this idea back to there board and come up with some sorta group idea on what to offer the kings because if ur fan bases cant agree how are king fans supposed to talk trade seriously

 

[angry pirate]

My trade offer would be;

Mike Reilly
Nikita Scherbak

Conditional 2019 2nd round pick
*Becomes 2019 1st round pick if Habs make Conferance Finals

Conditional 2020 2nd round pick
*Becomes 2020 1st round pick if;
A) Habs did not make the 2019 Conferance Finals
and
B) Habs resign Muzzin