Value of: Muzzin Holl + for Wennberg Borgen

[mouser]

Muzzin is a very good player. The idea he has negative value is hilarious.

Muzzin is a good player on a reasonable contract. The issue with his trade value is more his NTC. There are likely a limited number of teams he’d be willing to waive for, and a only a subset of those teams interested in acquiring him.

 

[Connor McConnor]

TOI Pts and +/- are fancy stats now?

He did it for 7 games compared to showing signs that he's clearly declining and got injured during the larger sample size of the RS.

I somewhat agree with you though that getting rid of him and Holl for another forward locked up for 2 years isn't the smartest move.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Perhaps this trade makes more sense if we remove Wennberg and add Donskoi (even though that means the Leafs have to give more value back). 1 year not 2 and $0.6m cheaper.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Declining all the way to doing this on the top matchup pairing these playoffs:

Brodie 22:47, 1 ev pts, +5, 55.9xgf%
Muzzin 22:11, 3 ev pts, +4, 50.9xgf%

Kucherov 20:27, 3 ev pts, -5, 49.4xgf%
Stamkos 18:55, 2 ev pts, -2, 46.3xgf%
Point 19:10, 1 ev pts, -6, 49.3xgf%

7 games. What about his horrible season, declined in every aspect. He wasn't gonna last all of playoffs anyways, usually gets injured

 

[zeke]

He did it for 7 games compared to showing signs that he's clearly declining and got injured during the larger sample size of the RS.

I somewhat agree with you though that getting rid of him and Holl for another forward locked up for 2 years isn't the smartest move.

He's done it for his whole career including those most recent 7 playoffs games.

The fact that he had some injury struggles at times this year doesn't turn him into a negative value player.

7 games. What about his horrible season, declined in every aspect. He wasn't gonna last all of playoffs anyways, usually gets injured

What was horrible about his season?

 

[DingDongCharlie]

It was only one question actually.

But trading Holl is the easiest fix. Trading Kerfoot works too. In both cases they'd get value back and certainly won't be adding sweeteners.

Heck they could trade Muzzin too - but they're not trading him for expensive junk like this.

Nobody is giving you assets for Holl.

 

[zeke]

Nobody is giving you assets for Holl.

I understand that it's fun for HFboards to pretend that every single Leaf has a negative value but it's pretty silly tbh.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

I understand that it's fun for HFboards to pretend that every single Leaf has a negative value but it's pretty silly tbh.

Holl's value is cancelled out by his $2.0m cap hit. His value is either very very slightly negative (Holl+7th for nothing) or "future considerations" or very very slightly positive (Holl for 7th).

Trade value is not the same right now as it usually is for players who don't have bargain cap hits. The flat cap is a whole new world.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

He's done it for his whole career including those most recent 7 playoffs games.

The fact that he had some injury struggles at times this year doesn't turn him into a negative value player.



What was horrible about his season?

Just look up his offensive and defensive point share this season vs. last. A 1.6 point share, he might as well not exist.

Jake Muzzin Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Salary, Title | Hockey-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Jake Muzzin. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, trade, draft, salary and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[Connor McConnor]

I understand that it's fun for HFboards to pretend that every single Leaf has a negative value but it's pretty silly tbh.

I don't think it's necessarily about the Leafs players but moreso about the lack of cap space around the League. Guys like Patches/Wennberg have basically zero value yet are productive top 6 players.

 

[zeke]

Holl's value is cancelled out by his $2.0m cap hit. His value is either very very slightly negative (Holl+7th for nothing) or "future considerations" or very very slightly positive (Holl for 7th).

Trade value is not the same right now as it usually is for players who don't have bargain cap hits. The flat cap is a whole new world.

$2m is not expensive for a guy who's been a tough usage 20mpg dman on a very good team for years now.

I don't think it's necessarily about the Leafs players but moreso about the lack of cap space around the League. Guys like Patches/Wennberg have basically zero value yet are productive top 6 players.

Wennberg is a 40pt player who is bad defensively.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

$2m is not expensive for a guy who's been a tough usage 20mpg dman on a very good team for years now.

He's not seen as a player who should be part of any team's long term plans, and he isn't seen as a guy with upside. If a GM wants a 3rd pair RHD, they'll get a $2m guy with upside or they'll get somebody cheaper. Or, they'll take somebody's $4m overpaid guy and picks and prospects. Those options all make more sense than Holl in this flat cap environment, UNLESS you're getting Holl for a 7th rounder or for free. Don't think about this in normal terms. GMs are operating in "flat cap" mindset. It's totally different.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

$2m is not expensive for a guy who's been a tough usage 20mpg dman on a very good team for years now.

...yeah, we Habs fans overrate our useless plugs too...

 

[mouser]

$2m is not expensive for a guy who's been a tough usage 20mpg dman on a very good team for years now.

$2m is above average for a 3rd pairing Dman, which Holl is.

Not egregiously above average, but still above average.

Lets also be honest that the reason Holl was playing 20 minutes is because Toronto’s forward heavy cap structure made it difficult to find the cap room to fill the roster in with better defensemen than Holl.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

$2m is above average for a 3rd pairing Dman, which Holl is.

Not egregiously above average, but still above average.

Lets also be honest that the reason Holl was playing 20 minutes is because Toronto’s forward heavy cap structure made it difficult to find the cap room to fill the roster in with better defensemen than Holl.

Its basically the root of all of the leafs problems. The need to depend on reclamation projects for goaltending, the need for old geezers wanting to play at home, the need to let depth players go in the off season for cheaper depth (some work out, others fail), and the need to constantly send out futures at the TDL.

 

[zeke]

$2m is above average for a 3rd pairing Dman, which Holl is.

Not egregiously above average, but still above average.

Lets also be honest that the reason Holl was playing 20 minutes is because Toronto’s forward heavy cap structure made it difficult to find the cap room to fill the roster in with better defensemen than Holl.

The reason Holl played top 4 is because he flat out beat out both the more expensive Ceci and Barrie in a direct head to head battle for playing time, both of whom started ahead of him in the pecking order.

And both Ceci and Barrie were still top 4 dmen for a good team this past season, for the record.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

I understand that it's fun for HFboards to pretend that every single Leaf has a negative value but it's pretty silly tbh.

Oh you poor victim. Someone think's your 6/7 D doesn't have value with a $2 million cap hit. Cry elsewhere. There's a ton of players on each club with no value due to cap hit, term, performance.

The reason Holl played top 4 is because he flat out beat out both the more expensive Ceci and Barrie in a direct head to head battle for playing time, both of whom started ahead of him in the pecking order.

And both Ceci and Barrie were still top 4 dmen for a good team this past season, for the record.

You think Holl is better than what Ceci was on the Oilers? That's cute.

 

[zeke]

Oh you poor victim. Someone think's your 6/7 D doesn't have value with a $2 million cap hit. Cry elsewhere. There's a ton of players on each club with no value due to cap hit, term, performance.



You think Holl is better than what Ceci was on the Oilers? That's cute.

Holl beat out the more expensive Ceci fair and square, and by a lot. Barrie too. That's how Holl became a top 4 dman.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

He is a cheap quality player. Stop being silly.



It's true - and it's why your Habs always finish so much lower on the standings than you guys predict they will.

You really went there after the eliminated your club down 3-1 and went to the finals?

You guys would have a parade if you made the Stanley Cup finals.

Holl beat out the more expensive Ceci fair and square, and by a lot. Barrie too. That's how Holl became a top 4 dman.

Love how you keep slamming other teams and their players. Meanwhile you've been here since 2005 and haven't seen a single playoff round win in all that time. Enjoy Holl.

 

[zeke]

Love how you keep slamming other teams and their players. Meanwhile you've been here since 2005 and haven't seen a single playoff round win in all that time. Enjoy Holl.

The Leafs started that season with Ceci and Barrie as the RD on their top 2 pairings. They ended that season with Holl on the shutdown pairing playing more than either of them.

Those are the simple facts of how Holl came to play in the top 4, in response to a false claim about why he was in the top 4.

The only slamming being done in this thread is posters like yourself slamming leafs players without reason.

 

[thusk]

They're over cap once Sandin signs, and they also don't want/need to stay commited to Muzzin for 2 more years. Holl is a #6/#7, who can hopefully be replaced with one Borgen Benn Mete or a kid like Niemelä Rindell.

Muzzin is the BEST leafs D defensive side of the puck when healthy...

Its not a 39 y/O dman or an offensive dman who will replace him...and its not a 3rd line center or a 7th who will make leafs a better team than with Muzzin...

Leafs drop from 4th to 19 th defensivly when Muzzin get injured...they still need him

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Muzzin is the BEST leafs D defensive side of the puck when healthy...

Its not a 39 y/O dman or an offensive dman who will replace him...and its not a 3rd line center or a 7th who will make leafs a better team than with Muzzin...

Leafs drop from 4th to 19 th defensivly when Muzzin get injured...they still need him

Whether they need him or how good people think he is doesn't matter. They're over cap. End of story. If Dubas thinks he's as amazing as you say, Sandin and/or Kerfoot and/or Holl will be moved instead. Which is fine.

 

[thusk]

Whether they need him or how good people think he is doesn't matter. They're over cap. End of story. If Dubas thinks he's as amazing as you say, Sandin and/or Kerfoot and/or Holl will be moved instead. Which is fine.

Still not a big deal they just can Send down 2 player and stay at 20, they will be fine

If needed to can easily trade holl...a top 3 D will ALWAYS be more important than a depht player

 

[FerrisRox]

Muzzin (2y @ $5.625m)
Holl (1y @ $2.0m)
leafs add pick(s) and/or prospect(s)
TOTAL CAP = $7.625m

Wennberg (2y @ $4.5m)
Borgen (1y @ $0.9m)
TOTAL CAP = $5.4m

I edited this to remove salary retention.

Leafs save $2.225m in cap this year and $1.15m next year. Wennberg provides affordable forward depth.

Kraken get a third pairing upgrade, and more importantly, sell cap space for futures.

What is Toronto adding to this deal?

EDIT - ADDED LATER :
Perhaps this trade makes more sense if we remove Wennberg and add Donskoi (even though that means the Leafs have to give more value back). 1 year not 2 and $0.6m cheaper.

This trade isn't really taking into consideration what Seattle would want or need. Saying they will get a "third pairing upgrade" is highly debatable. I think LD is probably the position the team is deepest at, and I can't see why they would even consider moving a valuable piece like Wennberg to *not* address a need (and subtract from their biggest need: offence.)

This makes zero sense for the Kraken and they end up with the highest paid and oldest player in the trade.

Why?

 

[lanceuppercut75]

This trade isn't really taking into consideration what Seattle would want or need. Saying they will get a "third pairing upgrade" is highly debatable. I think LD is probably the position the team is deepest at, and I can't see why they would even consider moving a valuable piece like Wennberg to *not* address a need (and subtract from their biggest need: offence.)

This makes zero sense for the Kraken and they end up with the highest paid and oldest player in the trade.

Why?

This thread is a "Value Of" thread.
It isn't a "Proposal" thread.

re-posting the important part for you:
What does Toronto add to this trade?
( = what pick(s) or prospect(s) that Seattle want make this trade work? )