Value of: Muzzin Holl + for Wennberg Borgen

[lanceuppercut75]

Muzzin (2y @ $5.625m)
Holl (1y @ $2.0m)
leafs add pick(s) and/or prospect(s)
TOTAL CAP = $7.625m

Wennberg (2y @ $4.5m)
Borgen (1y @ $0.9m)
TOTAL CAP = $5.4m

I edited this to remove salary retention.

Leafs save $2.225m in cap this year and $1.15m next year. Wennberg provides affordable forward depth.

Kraken get a third pairing upgrade, and more importantly, sell cap space for futures.

What is Toronto adding to this deal?

EDIT - ADDED LATER :
Perhaps this trade makes more sense if we remove Wennberg and add Donskoi (even though that means the Leafs have to give more value back). 1 year not 2 and $0.6m cheaper.

Click to read more...

 

[herzausstein]

Seattle doesn’t have the capspace

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Seattle doesn’t have the capspace

Oops. Removed salary retention.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Muzzin (2y @ $5.625m)
Holl (1y @ $2.0m)
leafs add pick(s) and/or prospect(s)
TOTAL CAP = $7.625m

Wennberg (2y @ $4.5m)
Borgen (1y @ $0.9m)
TOTAL CAP = $5.4m

I edited this to remove salary retention.

Leafs save $2.225m in cap this year and $1.15m next year. Wennberg provides affordable forward depth.

Kraken get a third pairing upgrade, and more importantly, sell cap space for futures.

What is Toronto adding to this deal?

Even if they add their 23 1st I see no reason why Seattle would do this.

I honestly like the 3 LD the Kraken already have (Dunn, Oleksiak and Soucy) over Muzzin. Holl is an ok 3rd pair RD but nothing to write home about. The players Seattle are trading are nothing they'll miss either but it's the added 4M in cap that make no sense for them. They aren't that far below the cap to add that without significant assets and a 1st really isn't much when they have a 1st and 3 2nd's already. Seattle isn't in position to be helping teams out, they are trying to be competitive and this deal doesn't help the on ice product.

I see you edited to remove the retention on Wennberg but even then it still doesn't work. The players added don't improve the team.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Nothing for nothing but Seattle takes on cap with no real benefit. My guess is it costs at least a 2nd for them to consider this.

 

[Djp]

Muzzin (2y @ $5.625m)
Holl (1y @ $2.0m)
leafs add pick(s) and/or prospect(s)
TOTAL CAP = $7.625m

Wennberg (2y @ $4.5m)
Borgen (1y @ $0.9m)
TOTAL CAP = $5.4m

I edited this to remove salary retention.

Leafs save $2.225m in cap this year and $1.15m next year. Wennberg provides affordable forward depth.

Kraken get a third pairing upgrade, and more importantly, sell cap space for futures.

What is Toronto adding to this deal?

Seattle loses the 2 better players

 

[zeke]

Why is Toronto trading good players for bad players?

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Why is Toronto trading good players for bad players?

They're over cap once Sandin signs, and they also don't want/need to stay commited to Muzzin for 2 more years. Holl is a #6/#7, who can hopefully be replaced with one Borgen Benn Mete or a kid like Niemelä Rindell.

 

[zeke]

and they also don't want/need to stay commited to Muzzin for 2 more years.

Why would they not want to keep an excellent dman for 2 more years?

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Why would they not want to keep an excellent dman for 2 more years?

Rielly - Brodie
Giordano - Liljegren
Sandin - (Borgen / Hollowell / kid / trade )
#7 = Borgen / Hollowell
#8 = Benn
#9 = Mete

There's a salary cap and the Leafs can't afford to spend $5.625m on a LHD they no longer need who cannot stay healthy. It was fine before, but now Sandin and Liljegren are getting paid and the leafs added Giordano who replaces Muzzin. Ignoring the players we brought in this summer, Muzzin makes the most sense to dump for cap reasons, followed by Kerfoot.

 

[zeke]

Rielly - Brodie
Giordano - Liljegren
Sandin - (Borgen / Hollowell / kid / trade )
#7 = Borgen / Hollowell
#8 = Benn
#9 = Mete

There's a salary cap and the Leafs can't afford to spend $5.625m on a LHD they no longer need who cannot stay healthy. It was fine before, but now Sandin and Liljegren are getting paid and the leafs added Giordano who replaces Muzzin. Ignoring the players we brought in this summer, Muzzin makes the most sense to dump for cap reasons, followed by Kerfoot.

What does "no longer need" mean?

Muzzin is a very good dman. He and Brodie formed an excellent top matchup pairing that dominated the Bolts' top liners in the playoffs.

Why would they trade that for an overpaid 3rd liner?

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

Why is Toronto trading good players for bad players?

Not surprised. Par for the course.

Why would they not want to keep an excellent dman for 2 more years?

Blind love...

 

[lanceuppercut75]

What does "no longer need" mean?

Muzzin is an very good dman. He and Brodie formed an excellent top matchup pairing that dominated the Bolts' top liners in the playoffs.

Why would they trade that for an overpaid 3rd liner?

It means that we have two good pairs in Rielly Brodie and Giordano Liljegren, a young third pairing LHD that needs to be playing every night to develop, a constant cap crunch with a top-heavy cap structure and current situation where we're over the cap.

We need to remove a player to be cap compliant, or at least swap a player for a cheaper player. Wennberg at $4.5m as our 10th or 11th best forward for two years can do more for this team than Muzzin at $5.625m for two years, considering cap needs, and to a lesser extent positional depth, Muzzin's inability to stay healthy, etc.

 

[zeke]

It means that we have two good pairs in Rielly Brodie and Giordano Liljegren, a young third pairing LHD that needs to be playing every night to develop, a constant cap crunch with a top-heavy cap structure and current situation where we're over the cap.

We need to remove a player to be cap compliant, or at least swap a player for a cheaper player. Wennberg at $4.5m as our 10th or 11th best forward for two years can do more for this team than Muzzin at $5.625m for two years, considering cap needs, and to a lesser extent positional depth, Muzzin's inability to stay healthy, etc.

Muzzin is a very good player.

Wennberg is bad.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Muzzin is a very good player.

Wennberg is bad.

Somebody needs to be traded for somebody cheaper or dumped. Period. The only way to avoid that is some big LTIR injury or somebody bolting to Europe to play there.

Matthews Nylander Rielly Giordano Bunting Kämpf and brand new guys Järnkrok Aubé-Kubel Samsonov = it makes no sense

Tavares Murray = won't waive their NTC

Marner Brodie Liljegren Engvall = most fans and probably Dubas would prefer to keep them instead of trading for cheaper players

Clifford Simmonds Gaudette Anderson = you can't save cap space swapping them

Muzzin Kerfoot Holl Sandin = these are the guys Dubas will look at and trade one away


Seattle is thinking long-term, so they're more interested in the sweetener than Muzzin.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Muzzin (2y @ $5.625m)
Holl (1y @ $2.0m)
leafs add pick(s) and/or prospect(s)
TOTAL CAP = $7.625m

Wennberg (2y @ $4.5m)
Borgen (1y @ $0.9m)
TOTAL CAP = $5.4m

I edited this to remove salary retention.

Leafs save $2.225m in cap this year and $1.15m next year. Wennberg provides affordable forward depth.

Kraken get a third pairing upgrade, and more importantly, sell cap space for futures.

What is Toronto adding to this deal?

Nothing because It's a terrible deal

 

[zeke]

Somebody needs to be traded for somebody cheaper or dumped. Period. The only way to avoid that is some big LTIR injury or somebody bolting to Europe to play there.

Matthews Nylander Rielly Giordano Bunting Kämpf and brand new guys Järnkrok Aubé-Kubel Samsonov = it makes no sense

Tavares Murray = won't waive their NTC

Marner Brodie Liljegren Engvall = most fans and probably Dubas would prefer to keep them instead of trading for cheaper players

Clifford Simmonds Gaudette Anderson = you can't save cap space swapping them

Muzzin Kerfoot Holl Sandin = these are the guys Dubas will look at and trade one away


Seattle is thinking long-term, so they're more interested in the sweetener than Muzzin.

The Leafs are not trading a very good player for a bad one.

Even worse is that the cap savings are minimal.

The idea that the Leafs would have to add a sweetener on top of already getting screwed in the player exchange is....bizarre.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Why is Toronto trading good players for bad players?

You ask a lot of questions.

Here's one for you... What do you propose the Leafs realistically do to get under the cap once Sandin is signed?

 

[zeke]

You ask a lot of questions.

Here's one for you... What do you propose the Leafs realistically do to get under the cap once Sandin is signed?

It was only one question actually.

But trading Holl is the easiest fix. Trading Kerfoot works too. In both cases they'd get value back and certainly won't be adding sweeteners.

Heck they could trade Muzzin too - but they're not trading him for expensive junk like this.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

The Leafs are not trading a very good player for a bad one.

Muzzin has no trade value, and you could make an argument that his trade value is actually slightly below zero / negative.

Cap space is expensive, especially in this 2021 2022 2023 pandemic and post-pandemic almost-flat cap. This is the worst possible time to have expensive players with no trade value and also need to open cap space. You either trade players you had planned on keeping instead for low returns (Björkstrand Pacioretty) or you pay a lot to move the guy you're trying to move.

The Leafs have backed themselves into a corner, and now they'll have to accept a bad trade (in order to move Muzzin), or trade somebody they had maybe planned to keep this year (Kerfoot Holl) or even planned on keeping long term (Sandin).

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Why would they not want to keep an excellent dman for 2 more years?

He's declining hard.

 

[zeke]

Muzzin has no trade value, and you could make an argument that his trade value is actually slightly below zero / negative.

Muzzin is a very good player. The idea he has negative value is hilarious.

 

[zeke]

He's declining hard.

Declining all the way to doing this on the top matchup pairing these playoffs:

Brodie 22:47, 1 ev pts, +5, 55.9xgf%
Muzzin 22:11, 3 ev pts, +4, 50.9xgf%

Kucherov 20:27, 3 ev pts, -5, 49.4xgf%
Stamkos 18:55, 2 ev pts, -2, 46.3xgf%
Point 19:10, 1 ev pts, -6, 49.3xgf%

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Declining all the way to doing this on the top matchup pairing these playoffs:

Brodie 22:47, 1 ev pts, +5, 55.9xgf%
Muzzin 22:11, 3 ev pts, +4, 50.9xgf%

Kucherov 20:27, 3 ev pts, -5, 49.4xgf%
Stamkos 18:55, 2 ev pts, -2, 46.3xgf%
Point 19:10, 1 ev pts, -6, 49.3xgf%

...yup...fancy stats right to the 1st Round Handshake line...the Dubas Special...

...fact; Cap is at a Premium right now and Muzzin's contract is an exceptionally painful one for a guy who'll be 34 years old in season, isn't the stellar shutdown defender he once was, and who's having a hard time staying healthy...you can deny reality until that Avvie's hairline completely disappears, but you're only fooling yourself...

 

[zeke]

...yup...fancy stats right to the 1st Round Handshake line...the Dubas Special...

...fact; Cap is at a Premium right now and Muzzin's contract is an exceptionally painful one for a guy who'll be 34 years old in season, isn't the stellar shutdown defender he once was, and who's having a hard time staying healthy...you can deny reality until that Avvie's hairline completely disappears, but you're only fooling yourself...

TOI Pts and +/- are fancy stats now?