Proposal: MTL's 3OA (+ Pacioretty) for a Center

[HockeyDBspecialist]

Come on dude. At least get the facts right. It was two firsts, plus Lehtera. And that second first is #14 overall this year.

it was a late first (27) and a conditional. You can't be that blind to say it was a good trade.
Schenn is a killer Center and would have been a crazy good winger.

 

[rent free]

oh please, how bias are you ? Lethera and a late first for a #1 talented Center ? so delusional

schenn didn't play center on the flyers iirc and wasn't going to if he was there long term. they had other wingers that were nhl ready if my memory serves correctly. the flyers got morgan frost with the blues 1st round pick in that trade, who is a stud prospect. lehtera only had 2 seasons left when that trade was made, so he didn't have that bad of a contract.

 

[rent free]

it was a late first (27) and a conditional. You can't be that blind to say it was a good trade.
Schenn is a killer Center and would have been a crazy good winger.

that late first got the flyers an amazing prospect and they are getting another good prospect with the 14th pick in this draft

 

[DRW204]

it was a late first (27) and a conditional. You can't be that blind to say it was a good trade.
Schenn is a killer Center and would have been a crazy good winger.

He wasn't a killer Center at the time of the trade. He was a good winger and by all accounts didn't impress at C when given time in Philly

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

schenn didn't play center on the flyers iirc and wasn't going to if he was there long term. they had other wingers that were nhl ready if my memory serves correctly. the flyers got morgan frost with the blues 1st round pick in that trade, who is a stud prospect. lehtera only had 2 seasons left when that trade was made, so he didn't have that bad of a contract.

what ever the pick became ( Frost is NO Schenn lmao) it was still a terrible trade for a young talented player who could and can play CENTER.
The conditional was no guarantee. Bottom line, it was a late first, a no guarantee 2019 first and a terrible terrible player in Lehtera.

 

[rent free]

what ever the pick became ( Frost is NO Schenn lmao) it was still a terrible trade for a young talented player who could and can play CENTER.
The conditional was no guarantee. Bottom line, it was a late first, a no guarantee 2019 first and a terrible terrible player in Lehtera.

well of course frost is no schenn. he is still a prospect. he will most likely be a pretty good player in the future. schenn wasn't good at center, which is the reason why he played wing. thats like saying "galchenuk can play center, but he isn't good at it". schenn only produced 70 points because he played with schwartz and tarasenko. he wouldn't have done that on philadelphia. another thing, the trade was schenn for lehtera, a 2017 1st and a 2018 conditional 1st, not a no guarantee 2019 1st. looks at the trade properly.

 

[Viqsi]

what ever the pick became ( Frost is NO Schenn lmao) it was still a terrible trade for a young talented player who could and can play CENTER.
The conditional was no guarantee. Bottom line, it was a late first, a no guarantee 2019 first and a terrible terrible player in Lehtera.

So Frost is awesome and desirable when it comes to the Habs looking for trade targets for their future #1C, but he's subpar and not good enough when it comes to illustrating how the Habs can trade wingers for centers.

Gotcha.

 

[jfhabs]

So Frost is awesome and desirable when it comes to the Habs looking for trade targets for their future #1C, but he's subpar and not good enough when it comes to illustrating how the Habs can trade wingers for centers.

Gotcha.

I think you are projecting a bit there, that's not what he said... I think he was saying the value of the trade was Schenn for late first, not Schenn for draft + 1 Morgan Frost... that pick could've been worse... who knows.

 

[Viqsi]

I think you are projecting a bit there, that's not what he said... I think he was saying the value of the trade was Schenn for late first, not Schenn for draft + 1 Morgan Frost... that pick could've been worse... who knows.

I'd buy that (and it's a valid argument) IF he wasn't constantly making "Frost is no Schenn" comments as part of the discussion.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

I'd buy that (and it's a valid argument) IF he wasn't constantly making "Frost is no Schenn" comments as part of the discussion.

Why are you alayways mad in every posts you make.

It was directed to the 27th pick, not the player. it was a gamble and not a good trade IMO

 

[Viqsi]

Why are you alayways mad in every posts you make.

It was directed to the 27th pick, not the player. it was a gamble and not a good trade IMO

Because I don't gladly suffer fools.

The problem is that you're playing revisionist history with the trade circumstances. Sure, Schenn has had an excellent first season with the Blues at C. The Flyers, however, had tried him at C and he hadn't really displayed much; he'd been better at W. Kind of like Galchenyuk's situation, only there was even less reason to believe in any of his bonafides as a NHL C. He was the sort of C risk that many Habs fans, if they were given that option at the time, would have said "no thanks, we need someone with a better track record" or something similar.

That he broke out seems to have more to do with his playing with extraordinarily skilled players than anything else. That's not to say he secretly sucks - the ability to play well with skilled guys is itself a skill, and a tremendously underrated one. But that doesn't mean he's going to be able to drive the play with just anybody. That, and it's only been one season so far.

So, ultimately, it wasn't trading "two wingers for a C" - at least, not under the circumstances that have been expressed as desirable in this thread. You're banking on "we're offering a much better 1st, therefore we can get more of a sure thing", but that's the fallacy of player fungibility - trade value doesn't necessarily work that way, particularly when you're talking about high-demand low-availability pieces like #1Cs and future #1Cs.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

He was the sort of C risk that many Habs fans, if they were given that option at the time, would have said "no thanks, we need someone with a better track record" or something similar.

That is definitely not true. Habs fans were pissed off and mad that MB did nothing to aquire a young C struggling with a deficient team when it comes to building and shape their offensive prospects pool.

Also, it was Philadelphia's fault for not being patient enough with the kid. Schenn was a good player and its really farfetch to say its because of tarra and swartz that he is good now. If you watched (which I doubt by yout tone) him play you would see that he is a talented center that creates his own space.

 

[Viqsi]

That is definitely not true. Habs fans were pissed off and mad that MB did nothing to aquire a young C struggling with a deficient team when it comes to building and shape their offensive prospects pool.

Would y'all have accepted trading MaxPac and your 1st for the guy?

Also, it was Philadelphia's fault for not being patient enough with the kid.

They'd had him for six years. Same amount of time as Galchenyuk.

It's not that he wasn't good then and he is now. He was consistently in that 55-60 point range for Philly in his later years... on the wing. Thinking of him as a C at the time would be akin to thinking of someone like Jonathan Huberdeau or Boone Jenner as a C - sure, they've played the position before, but that's not where their career arc has gone. Having that change mid-career is, y'know, kind of rare. Thus, the market value was lower. This is a phenomenon y'all should be familiar with given events of the last couple of days.

Schenn was a good player and its really farfetch to say its because of tarra and swartz that he is good now.

He went seemingly from good to great with those two. Great players can do that.

And I'm not disparaging that play style. Heck, that's the same thing Dubois is doing here - and arguably he's also similarly boosted by his wingers.

 

[kevind122684]

Zadina + a year of Patches probably isnt getting you the type of 1C you are expecting.

ROR for pick 3
Carter for Patches + pick 35

this is the type of deals MB could make to try to save his job..but they need to keep the picks and rebuild
maybe try to milk a 2nd out of detroit/vancouver and move back to take kotkaniemi

i dont think the Habs should want MB to keep his job. that clown should of been fired along time ago

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

Would y'all have accepted trading MaxPac and your 1st for the guy?

MaxPac is no Lehtera..... if you asked me if I would give the 27th+Shaw+ conditional for Schenn then YES x 100000000000000000.
( not if the pick was the 3ov.)

 

[Viqsi]

MaxPac is no Lehtera..... if you asked me if I would give the 27th+Shaw+ conditional for Schenn then YES x 100000000000000000.
( not if the pick was the 3ov.)

Now, sure. At the time?

(Also, the "conditional" is the 14th overall pick this year in the Schenn trade; keep that in mind.)

 

[57special]

BUF should be all over a ROR for Patches+3rd. Maybe not a bad deal for MTL, either. Eichel and Mittelstadt can be the top 6 C's. Zadina would be perfect, and Patches some vet presence.

Think BUF needs to add someone like Pu to make it fair. MTL might want Nylander.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

Now, sure. At the time?

(Also, the "conditional" is the 14th overall pick this year in the Schenn trade; keep that in mind.)

If you calculate every aspects of the trade 2 years later with a great gamble and lucks in the draft pick, then yes the trade was kinda worth.
but at the time of the trade it was a terrible trade and it's purely draft luck that Frost is doing that well in his last OHL year, Forst is still really small and need to get A LOT bigger to do a great job as a 3c with the flyers.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

BUF should be all over a ROR for Patches+3rd. Maybe not a bad deal for MTL, either. Eichel and Mittelstadt can be the top 6 C's. Zadina would be perfect, and Patches some vet presence.

Think BUF needs to add someone like Pu to make it fair. MTL might want Nylander.

if you have the choice to keep a Sniper + a prospect #1 Center in Kotka vs ROR I think every fans would keep the sniper and the prospect #1c

 

[57special]

if you have the choice to keep a Sniper + a prospect #1 Center in Kotka vs ROR I think every fans would keep the sniper and the prospect #1c

Do you really think that Kotka is a surefire #1C prospect? Hell, he barely played C this year in the FEL. I am highly suspicious of how high Kotka has rocketed up the draft board AFTER the season has finished.

Poehling is a nice C prospect...possibly better than Kotka. The lack of high end C's in this draft is artificially raising their value.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Do you really think that Kotka is a surefire #1C prospect? Hell, he barely played C this year in the FEL. I am highly suspicious of how high Kotka has rocketed up the draft board AFTER the season has finished.

Poehling is a nice C prospect...possibly better than Kotka. The lack of high end C's in this draft is artificially raising their value.

OK, give us previous examples. Guys that rocketed up the draft due to hype and end up busting?

- Pettersson: Mid season rank was 11 and final rank was 7. Would he of been a stretch to take earlier? I think not

- Heiskanen: Mid season rank was 13 and final rank was 3. Bad pick? Good Pick? You tell me.

- PLD: Mid season rank was 8 and final rank was 5. Blue Jackets took him 3rd.

- Keller: Mid season rank was 15 and final rank was 8. Would he of been a bad pick at 3rd? I think not!

- Draisaitl

Once again, Show me a guy who had lots of hype pre draft that rocketed up the rankings and ended up busting?

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

Do you really think that Kotka is a surefire #1C prospect? Hell, he barely played C this year in the FEL. I am highly suspicious of how high Kotka has rocketed up the draft board AFTER the season has finished.

Poehling is a nice C prospect...possibly better than Kotka. The lack of high end C's in this draft is artificially raising their value.

Well he played mostly W in a pretty big men's league... he is so under-weighted ( is that even a word ?) for a 6'2.5 guy.
His coach said he was a PURE center and every scouts said that too. The thing I love about him and why I trust in him is that the only reason some people put him lower is because of his Balance-Weight-Speed which can all be trained pretty easily compared to vision, hockey IQ and shots release.

 

[sandysan]

That is definitely not true. Habs fans were pissed off and mad that MB did nothing to aquire a young C struggling with a deficient team when it comes to building and shape their offensive prospects pool.

Also, it was Philadelphia's fault for not being patient enough with the kid. Schenn was a good player and its really farfetch to say its because of tarra and swartz that he is good now. If you watched (which I doubt by yout tone) him play you would see that he is a talented center that creates his own space.

I don't think there is a monolothic " habs fan" to suggest we all want one thing but I for one didnt want another mid to high 2C to see if he could carry the load. I don't want Bozak or Stasny now. We don't need Centers, we need center who can play reliably in the top 6. What we absolutely do not need more of it take a 3C and playing him at 1C for lack of any possible alternatives.

one day, by hook or by crook, the habs will have a legit NHL 1C.
I hope my kid is alive to see it.

 

[57special]

dlete

 

[57special]

ROR is a #1C, right now. Poehling will likely be a middle six C. Get a guy like Pu thrown into the deal, who might end up being a a good bottom, maybe even middle six C. BUF is one of the very few(only?) teams that is in a position to trade a #1C...are MTL fans projecting that Kotka is going to be better, or even as good as him? Maybe...but you'd have to be a glass half full guy, for sure. Right now, Kotka seems to starting to assume Barkov like status to some....I just don't get it.

This whole deal assumes that MTL doesn't want Patches back after this year.