MT doesn´t like Lars Eller and it´s hurting the team in the process

[WatchfulElm]

Although I have already told him a number of times, it seems it hasn't sunk in yet. Your analogy is good but let me modify it to make it more related to what I was trying to explain...
so taking your description, with my edits in bold...

Imagine that you are 23 (or pick any age over 20) and have met two females. One is your ideal image of what your wife will be like and you can imagine the future with her. However, she is just 16 yrs old. Too young, needs some maturing. A few years before you can date her assuming she grows up to fill in to her potential.

The other is someone that you cannot imagine spending the rest of your life with but she is free to do anything you want whenever you want at any time of the day or night and she's not so bad that you have to hide her from your friends.

One is Galchenyuk. One is DD.

Edit.........Eller is the girl who you call when none of your friends are available to go down to the local pub and grab a beer.

That should do it. If that explanation isn't enough...I have no idea what would.

So much explanation just to say that one player (DD) is ready to assume his role, while the other one (Galchenyuk) needs to gain more experience before assuming the same role, despite having more potential on the long run.

Effectiveness >> Potential

You own a Honda and you just signed a contract to buy a Ferrari that is still at the factory. Which one will you take to go to work this morning?

Not very hard to understand.

 

[ECWHSWI]

So much explanation just to say that one player (DD) is ready to assume his role, while the other one (Galchenyuk) needs to gain more experience before assuming the same role, despite having more potential on the long run.

Effectiveness >> Potential

You own a Honda and you just signed a contract to buy a Ferrari that is still at the factory. Which one will you take to go to work this morning?

Not very hard to understand.

when effectiveness means having a 50 pts season or so... going with potential isnt much of a risk.

 

[TiCats]

I think Eller is really over-rated, mostly because he is tall.

I think he can be a really effective shutdown centre on a third line in the Samuel Pahlsson mold, with better offensive numbers. I have no issue with him playing with bottom six wingers like Prust and Moen. Hell, I would trust that line against any in the league. His contract is good for a third centre and I don't like rolling three 'scoring lines'. Yes, secondary scoring from the bottom six is good, but it shouldn't be a focus. Eller is -10 on a plus team (only Murray is worse), I don't think that is good enough to be the third centre but he can turn it around.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him dealt, not today but before any other centre. I am on record that I believe Bournival will be the more important player in the long run and will take the 3rd centre spot.

 

[pepperMonkey]

So much explanation just to say that one player (DD) is ready to assume his role, while the other one (Galchenyuk) needs to gain more experience before assuming the same role, despite having more potential on the long run.

Effectiveness >> Potential

You own a Honda and you just signed a contract to buy a Ferrari that is still at the factory. Which one will you take to go to work this morning?

Not very hard to understand.

I know, unfortunately, just saying someone with all the attributes to be a franchise player may not be ready 'Now", didn't seem to be clear enough.

 

[Kriss E]

I know, unfortunately, just saying someone with all the attributes to be a franchise player may not be ready 'Now", didn't seem to be clear enough.

Sure, he ''may'' not be ready. He may also be ready. Alas, we won't know.
Our leading center has 36pts, under him we have another one at 34, and then one at 21. We are so set at center, there is no point in trying the guy we drafted to be our franchise center, who's already shown to be the more creative player in the top 9.

The way our team has been managed is just weird. Very little decisions have made sense this year. Heck, they didn't even give him a try at center during freaking training camp!

And now it's looking more and more like Eller will be traded or just given up on, with Gally becoming the 3rd line center next year. Which would be just a terrible scenario.

 

[Whitesnake]

Sure, he ''may'' not be ready. He may also be ready. Alas, we won't know.
Our leading center has 36pts, under him we have another one at 34, and then one at 21. We are so set at center, there is no point in trying the guy we drafted to be our franchise center, who's already shown to be the more creative player in the top 9.

The way our team has been managed is just weird. Very little decisions have made sense this year. Heck, they didn't even give him a try at center during freaking training camp!

And now it's looking more and more like Eller will be traded or just given up on, with Gally becoming the 3rd line center next year. Which would be just a terrible scenario.

Always dépends of the return. But true that the C line I had in mind for the future were Galchy-Pleks-Eller. And would immensely suck to trade another kid we haven't really tried....yet again. The more it changes, the more it's the same.

 

[Kriss E]

Always dépends of the return. But true that the C line I had in mind for the future were Galchy-Pleks-Eller. And would immensely suck to trade another kid we haven't really tried....yet again. The more it changes, the more it's the same.

Everybody and their mother could see the writing in the sky that Galchy-Plek-Eller was our future center line, which would solidify our center position for a couple of years and even make Plekanec a possible trade bait if Eller pans out as a 50ish pt guy.
Really, it was so clear.

Now it looks like Eller will be traded either now or in the summer with an all time low value. Still hoping for this to change, but what a crapshow if this actually happens.

 

[Sorinth]

DD has been the top offensive C by default. Not because he has all the virtues of being a great C (or even a good C), let alone being a franchise C. DD is a placeholder till Galchy is ready to become #1 C. Doesn't matter how many years DD holds the position. If he holds it for the next 10 years it just means that Galchy for whatever reason, never lived up to expectation and the management couldn't find a solution for the C position. A franchise player is someone who you build a team around because that player is good enough to spearhead the team. We aren't building around DD. We have a hole in the #1C and DD just happens to be the least bad choice. And please, don't argue that we are building around DD because we aren't. We haven't been trading to find 1st line wingers to play with DD. We haven't been drafting players specifically to play with DD. All we have been doing to moving players we already have to maximize Patches potential.
Frankly, on this team we only have one legit current franchise player in Price, followed closely by a possible near future franchise D in Subban (can be debated that he already is one) and a possible future franchise C in Galch.
DD is NOT a franchise player nor will he EVER be. Period. End of discussion.

Why isn't Plekanec the top offensive center by default?

So much explanation just to say that one player (DD) is ready to assume his role, while the other one (Galchenyuk) needs to gain more experience before assuming the same role, despite having more potential on the long run.

Effectiveness >> Potential

You own a Honda and you just signed a contract to buy a Ferrari that is still at the factory. Which one will you take to go to work this morning?

Not very hard to understand.

All these examples about cars and 16 year old girls are dumb. Just because Galchenyuk hasn't reached his full potential doesn't mean he hasn't already surpassed guys like Desharnais.

Since Galchenyuk came into the league he's produced 2.7 points per 60 minutes of ice time. Over that same time span DD is only at 2.5. So Galchenyuk has been out producing DD his entire career, despite getting much less PP time, playing mostly on the 3rd line, and not even in his natural position.

Just because he's young doesn't mean he's not ready. And it certainly doesn't mean he's not currently better than Desharnais.

And if you want to bring in what's best for his development (Which should be the primary concern), he's actually getting less ice time this season than last season.

 

[Monctonscout]

Kypreos has the Habs shopping Eller with size, which is comical considering he is one of the bigger players on the roster.

I'm hoping they don't move him given the way he is playing right now, I don't see them getting full value right now, better to be patient and wait for him to bounce back.

 

[Be a Hab]

It's not MT that gave that horrendous contract to DD it was MB. I think its MB that broke up the EGG line to try and start up DD again. MT doesn't have a history of breaking up lines that are clicking together. How stupid would MB look if DD doesn't get back on track after giving him a contract. Plus that contract was finalized before the season ended with didn't make sense to me at least wsit and see what DD can do in the playoffs. I don't like therrien more than anyone else but I think hes getting the blame for something he was told to do. Don't forget that Bergevin is Therrien boss.

I feel bad for Eller he might of had a decent season.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Sure, he ''may'' not be ready. He may also be ready. Alas, we won't know.
Our leading center has 36pts, under him we have another one at 34, and then one at 21. We are so set at center, there is no point in trying the guy we drafted to be our franchise center, who's already shown to be the more creative player in the top 9.

The way our team has been managed is just weird. Very little decisions have made sense this year. Heck, they didn't even give him a try at center during freaking training camp!

And now it's looking more and more like Eller will be traded or just given up on, with Gally becoming the 3rd line center next year. Which would be just a terrible scenario.

Lol, don't get me wrong here. I have no problems trying out Galch as a C. I'm just saying I don't think he's ready to be the defacto, #1, franchise C right NOW in the toughest hockey city in the world.
And yes, I agree, the usage of our players are just weird. I really hope a new coach is in the works or we are going to continue to go...well, no where.
As for Eller...if the return is right, I have no problems trading him...on the other hand, I can't see how any return for the current Eller to be good enough that a trade would make the Habs better. As such, I sure hope they aren't dumb enough to trade Eller. And yes, this means I do think Eller, regardless of what I think of DD, is our future, long term 3rd line C (while DD is a short term #1 C and long term...trade bait or whatever).

 

[pepperMonkey]

Why isn't Plekanec the top offensive center by default?

He should as he is our best offensive C currently...unfortunately he seems to be also used as our top defensive C as he is clearly the best by a long shot in that department. As such, as he can't play both the tough minutes and the easy minutes, well, the powers above decided to let DD take the easy minutes. If Eller was able to take over the defensive minutes, that would leave Pleks to be our top offensive C. That hasn't happened yet and it's not looking too good for that to happen any time soon if ever.

 

[Goldthorpe]

Why isn't Plekanec the top offensive center by default?

Because he can't do everything. If you give all the easy minutes to Plekanec, then who's gonna play the hard minutes? Desharnais? He would suck at it.

Plekanec is already our most used center. How many more minutes should he play? Do you think he's a 25 minutes center in the NHL? I don't.

 

[Kriss E]

Lol, don't get me wrong here. I have no problems trying out Galch as a C. I'm just saying I don't think he's ready to be the defacto, #1, franchise C right NOW in the toughest hockey city in the world.
And yes, I agree, the usage of our players are just weird. I really hope a new coach is in the works or we are going to continue to go...well, no where.
As for Eller...if the return is right, I have no problems trading him...on the other hand, I can't see how any return for the current Eller to be good enough that a trade would make the Habs better. As such, I sure hope they aren't dumb enough to trade Eller. And yes, this means I do think Eller, regardless of what I think of DD, is our future, long term 3rd line C (while DD is a short term #1 C and long term...trade bait or whatever).

I don't think Galchenyuk is ready to be our franchise center yet either. He's not even ahead of Plekanec. But I would still have him center his own line.

 

[habitue*]

I don't think Galchenyuk is ready to be our franchise center yet either. He's not even ahead of Plekanec. But I would still have him center his own line.

I think Galchenyuk is not necessarely a center. The guy is so good, he can do well on either of the three forwards positions.

Was he not playing RW with Sarault at center and Reid Boucher as LW last year (2012) during the NHL lockout ?

 

[Sorinth]

He should as he is our best offensive C currently...unfortunately he seems to be also used as our top defensive C as he is clearly the best by a long shot in that department. As such, as he can't play both the tough minutes and the easy minutes, well, the powers above decided to let DD take the easy minutes. If Eller was able to take over the defensive minutes, that would leave Pleks to be our top offensive C. That hasn't happened yet and it's not looking too good for that to happen any time soon if ever.

Because he can't do everything. If you give all the easy minutes to Plekanec, then who's gonna play the hard minutes? Desharnais? He would suck at it.

Plekanec is already our most used center. How many more minutes should he play? Do you think he's a 25 minutes center in the NHL? I don't.

Being the top offensive and defensive center is not an either or situation. Right now Desharnais is on the 1st PP wave and Plekanec on the 2nd. Why not balance that out so they get equal 1st/2nd wave time? That would give Plekanec better offensive opportunities without changing the distribution of hard/easy minutes or even total TOI.

And if we treated Plekanec like our #1 offensive guy and gave him Pacioretty (Our best possession player) then that line would turn some of Plekanec's defensive shutdown minutes into offensive minutes because instead of trying to shutdown the opposing team's top line, that top line would be in their own zone trying to stop us.

 

[Goldthorpe]

Being the top offensive and defensive center is not an either or situation. Right now Desharnais is on the 1st PP wave and Plekanec on the 2nd. Why not balance that out so they get equal 1st/2nd wave time? That would give Plekanec better offensive opportunities without changing the distribution of hard/easy minutes or even total TOI.

Well, if you make him play more minutes, then yes, it's going to change his TOI. Unless someone else take some of these minutes elsewhere.

And if we treated Plekanec like our #1 offensive guy and gave him Pacioretty (Our best possession player) then that line would turn some of Plekanec's defensive shutdown minutes into offensive minutes because instead of trying to shutdown the opposing team's top line, that top line would be in their own zone trying to stop us.

Plekanec is already producing offensively. Could he produce more if given the best wingers? Certainly. But then you're left with an offensive specialist (Desharnais) that you can't really benefit from because we no longer have wingers for him - and for a pure playmaker, that's kind of important. So how does this benefit the team? Or do you think Desharnais could manage to score points like he does right now but with the kind of wingers Plekanec has? Somehow I doubt it.

It's not like we have so much offense that we can just discard one of our best offensive player in order for Plekanec or Eller to shine. The habs aren't in the business of making players look good. They are in the business of winning games.

 

[Sorinth]

Well, if you make him play more minutes, then yes, it's going to change his TOI. Unless someone else take some of these minutes elsewhere.

How does Plekanec playing the 1st minute of a PP instead of the 2nd minute of a PP change his TOI?

Plekanec is already producing offensively. Could he produce more if given the best wingers? Certainly. But then you're left with an offensive specialist (Desharnais) that you can't really benefit from because we no longer have wingers for him - and for a pure playmaker, that's kind of important. So how does this benefit the team? Or do you think Desharnais could manage to score points like he does right now but with the kind of wingers Plekanec has? Somehow I doubt it.

It's not like we have so much offense that we can just discard one of our best offensive player in order for Plekanec or Eller to shine. The habs aren't in the business of making players look good. They are in the business of winning games.

So essentially your argument comes down to DD is the top line center because he'd suck if he wasn't?

Didn't Deharnais produce decently with Darche and Pouliot in a 3rd line role during his rookie season? Why can't he go back to that role? Last season when the offensive chances were shared more evenly we were one of the best offensive teams in the league. Now that we use DD for all the offensive chances and we are one of the worst. You really want me to believe that it's all just a coincidence.

 

[Hoople]

Although I have already told him a number of times, it seems it hasn't sunk in yet. Your analogy is good but let me modify it to make it more related to what I was trying to explain...
so taking your description, with my edits in bold...

Imagine that you are 23 (or pick any age over 20) and have met two females. One is your ideal image of what your wife will be like and you can imagine the future with her. However, she is just 16 yrs old. Too young, needs some maturing. A few years before you can date her assuming she grows up to fill in to her potential.

The other is someone that you cannot imagine spending the rest of your life with but she is free to do anything you want whenever you want at any time of the day or night and she's not so bad that you have to hide her from your friends.

One is Galchenyuk. One is DD.

Edit.........Eller is the girl who you call when none of your friends are available to go down to the local pub and grab a beer.

That should do it. If that explanation isn't enough...I have no idea what would.

. Great addition to my comments.

 

[habitue*]

How does Plekanec playing the 1st minute of a PP instead of the 2nd minute of a PP change his TOI?



So essentially your argument comes down to DD is the top line center because he'd suck if he wasn't?

Didn't Deharnais produce decently with Darche and Pouliot in a 3rd line role during his rookie season? Why can't he go back to that role? Last season when the offensive chances were shared more evenly we were one of the best offensive teams in the league. Now that we use DD for all the offensive chances and we are one of the worst. You really want me to believe that it's all just a coincidence.

Bring back Darche and Pouliot and just do it....

 

[Goldthorpe]

How does Plekanec playing the 1st minute of a PP instead of the 2nd minute of a PP change his TOI?

Generally, the 1st PP line spends more minutes on the PP than the second, but I understand what you mean. I guess MT doesn't want to split his lines just for the PP?

So essentially your argument comes down to DD is the top line center because he'd suck if he wasn't?

He's not the "top line" center, Plekanec is.

And yes, Desharnais would suck if he was asked to play in a situation that doesn't fit his talents. I don't see how this is especially surprising. Do you have a problem with Murray mainly playing bottom minutes and on the PK because he would suck if he wasn't?

 

[Sorinth]

Generally, the 1st PP line spends more minutes on the PP than the second, but I understand what you mean. I guess MT doesn't want to split his lines just for the PP?

He wouldn't have to split his lines, but at the end of the day splitting your line is not a big deal. PK and Markov are on different pairings for instance.

He's not the "top line" center, Plekanec is.

And yes, Desharnais would suck if he was asked to play in a situation that doesn't fit his talents. I don't see how this is especially surprising. Do you have a problem with Murray mainly playing bottom minutes and on the PK because he would suck if he wasn't?

I meant top offensive center, that should have been obvious given the context. Murray doesn't compare because bottom line minutes aren't prime opportunities. The better example is Bourque, everyone agrees he's not a good player. But if you play him like Calgary did, which means top PP time and as one of your top offensive players then he can put up respectable numbers. Should we play Bourque ahead of Pacioretty because Bourque is useless when not in that prime offensive role and Pacioretty would still be ok?

 

[Goldthorpe]

I meant top offensive center, that should have been obvious given the context. Murray doesn't compare because bottom line minutes aren't prime opportunities. The better example is Bourque, everyone agrees he's not a good player. But if you play him like Calgary did, which means top PP time and as one of your top offensive players then he can put up respectable numbers. Should we play Bourque ahead of Pacioretty because Bourque is useless when not in that prime offensive role and Pacioretty would still be ok?

Bourque isn't a specialist. He's not a player who is only here because of one thing, in which he is better than most others on the team, like Desharnais is. At this point he's a filler, someone you put on the ice so that your better players can rest a bit.

If we traded Bourque for an offensive specialist winger, then I would be very willing to give this new player to Desharnais and move Pacioretty on another line - although I don't especially like the two way play of the later (he's certainly not at the level of Plekanec).

 

[Sorinth]

Bourque isn't a specialist. He's not a player who is only here because of one thing, in which he is better than most others on the team, like Desharnais is. At this point he's a filler, someone you put on the ice so that your better players can rest a bit.

If we traded Bourque for an offensive specialist winger, then I would be very willing to give this new player to Desharnais and move Pacioretty on another line - although I don't especially like the two way play of the later (he's certainly not at the level of Plekanec).

What is Bourque better at than most others on the team? Bourque is exactly like Desharnais, play him like your best player with tons of PP time and the best linemates and he can put up good numbers. Don't build your team around him and he struggles to do anything useful.

If Desharnais is a "specialist" and we have guys like Plekanec who are not just better overall, but better at that particular specialty then it makes no sense to play the worse player over the better player. If we had a defenceman who had a good shot but sucked at everything else. Would we play him over Subban on the PP?

 

[Goldthorpe]

What is Bourque better at than most others on the team? Bourque is exactly like Desharnais, play him like your best player with tons of PP time and the best linemates and he can put up good numbers. Don't build your team around him and he struggles to do anything useful.

I said the opposite. Bourque ISN'T a specialist, especially not an offensive specialist. He's NOT one of our best offensive player, Desharnais is.

If Desharnais is a "specialist" and we have guys like Plekanec who are not just better overall, but better at that particular specialty then it makes no sense to play the worse player over the better player. If we had a defenceman who had a good shot but sucked at everything else. Would we play him over Subban on the PP?

I disagree that Plekanec is a better offensive center than Desharnais - or at least, it's pretty close.

If Subban was the only guy available to play on the PK and I could only play a guy on one of the special teams, then I would seriously consider not playing him on the PP, especially if the other option is instead to play someone who suck defensively. Also, Subban is one of the best offensive defenseman in the league - Plekanec isn't one of the best offensive center in the league, I'm not even sure if he's the best offensive center with the habs.

If Plekanec plays the easy minutes against the opponent 3rd and 4rd players, and most of the offensive zone starts... then who's going to play the thought minutes? Plekanec can't play them all. We need him way more as a two-way player capable of facing the league top players than as an exploitation forward, something Desharnais can do.