News Article: MSG gets 10 year permit

[Brooklyn Ranger]

I just don't get why this wasn't breached before Dolan did a billion dollar renovation. It's not like it was a secret that they were redoing the Garden. Couldn't they have come to an agreement before the work started?

You forget that the Dolans and Bloomberg weren't exactly friends.

 

[Miller Time NYR]

Speaking from expieriences in construction it would actually be cheaper to move the station then moving the Garden. Especially since the city would have to pay the Dolans for MSG.

Construction time on the other hand is a different story. It would take longer to route the tracks then move the garden. Tunnel construction is tedious work that takes awhile to complete verses a new areana.

That's kinda what I figured, if their planning on having it done in 2023 why not recognize how much of a legal battle it's going to be, plus the additional millions to pay the dolans and look to expand elsewhere.

Also if the reason the Dolans refused to move the garden elsewhere before the renovation was because their tax breaks wouldn't be transferred, why wouldn't the city realize they'd have to pay the Dolans eventually for them to move and just allow them to transfer the tax breaks in the first place, seems like poor planning.

 

[GAGLine]

I just don't get why this wasn't breached before Dolan did a billion dollar renovation. It's not like it was a secret that they were redoing the Garden. Couldn't they have come to an agreement before the work started?

It was, but the state/city couldn't get its act together, so the Dolans went ahead with a renovation plan.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...ion-Plans-Sticks-To-Decision-Not-To-Move.aspx

In N.Y., Brian Kates writes the decision "reflects Cablevision's apparent frustration with the state's inability to obtain sufficient funding for Moynihan Station, which is at least $1.2 short of its projected $3 cost."

As the deadline on the lease approaches, I would expect there to be more and more discussions about moving MSG, but I doubt we'll actually see it happen before 2025, and probably later than that, if at all. The next extension of the lease may be based on the proposed opening of the new MSG. Time will tell.

 

[McDonagh]

Rangers to Quebec City or Toronto #2 in 10 years (E5)

 

[trueblue9441]

the city/state govt should focus on building a new tunnel into manhattan to increase train capacity and further expanding the station into the post office.

the best option they gave there is removing the MSG theatre, building a new entrance on 8th ave and then building the gateway tunnel project and adding tracks to MSG south under 30th-31st streets.

 

[Blueblood9]

the city/state govt should focus on building a new tunnel into manhattan to increase train capacity and further expanding the station into the post office.

the best option they gave there is removing the MSG theatre, building a new entrance on 8th ave and then building the gateway tunnel project and adding tracks to MSG south under 30th-31st streets.

A reasoning might be that the city/MTA is spending a ton i mean a ton of money on the East side access tunnel which will bring the LIRR to Grand Central. This in turn will reduce the amount of commuters that will use Penn Station. Unfortunately the project is gonna blow the budget and is behind schedule by about 2-3 yrs.

Essentially the future of penn station will be for Amtrak and NJT, with LIRR passengers nearly halved

 

[trueblue9441]

A reasoning might be that the city/MTA is spending a ton i mean a ton of money on the East side access tunnel which will bring the LIRR to Grand Central. This in turn will reduce the amount of commuters that will use Penn Station. Unfortunately the project is gonna blow the budget and is behind schedule by about 2-3 yrs.

Essentially the future of penn station will be for Amtrak and NJT, with LIRR passengers nearly halved

gateway project had nothing to do with the MTA, more to do with NJ transit, state of new jersey and amtrak as they would be the ones using it.

MTA plans on bringing metro north to penn station via the empire connection on the west side of manhattan and by using amtraks hells gate bridge to get into penn station.

east side access is also behind schedule by 14 years. LOL damn mta

 

[Tawnos]

It was, but the state/city couldn't get its act together, so the Dolans went ahead with a renovation plan.

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/...ion-Plans-Sticks-To-Decision-Not-To-Move.aspx



As the deadline on the lease approaches, I would expect there to be more and more discussions about moving MSG, but I doubt we'll actually see it happen before 2025, and probably later than that, if at all. The next extension of the lease may be based on the proposed opening of the new MSG. Time will tell.

I'm sure you realize this, but it's important to know that it isn't a lease, it's an operating permit. MSG owns the land that it sits on and the building, so no lease is required. Just because the permit expires in 10 years doesn't mean that the city can then do with the land whatever they want. Hell, the permit could expire, the Rangers and Knicks could play in Hartford (gross) and the city would just have an empty building unused in Midtown.

They wouldn't be able to do anything about it unless the Dolans sold them the land or they went through an eminent domain proceeding. But, as I mentioned a few months back on the previous page, the eminent domain thing would involve the city paying market value on the land, which I think would be easy enough. The problem is that it would also involve finding an equivalent, suitable site for the Dolans, which would essentially double the price, or more, of just buying the land.

But, as you said, this probably goes until the permit is near expiration. At that point, the Rangers and Knicks will have recouped a lot of the cost of the renovations they just finished, making the ownership more amenable to trying a Garden relocation again.

 

[Islesfans1978*]

I'm sure you realize this, but it's important to know that it isn't a lease, it's an operating permit. MSG owns the land that it sits on and the building, so no lease is required. Just because the permit expires in 10 years doesn't mean that the city can then do with the land whatever they want. Hell, the permit could expire, the Rangers and Knicks could play in Hartford (gross) and the city would just have an empty building unused in Midtown.

They wouldn't be able to do anything about it unless the Dolans sold them the land or they went through an eminent domain proceeding. But, as I mentioned a few months back on the previous page, the eminent domain thing would involve the city paying market value on the land, which I think would be easy enough. The problem is that it would also involve finding an equivalent, suitable site for the Dolans, which would essentially double the price, or more, of just buying the land.

But, as you said, this probably goes until the permit is near expiration. At that point, the Rangers and Knicks will have recouped a lot of the cost of the renovations they just finished, making the ownership more amenable to trying a Garden relocation again.

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

 

[Islesfans1978*]

A reasoning might be that the city/MTA is spending a ton i mean a ton of money on the East side access tunnel which will bring the LIRR to Grand Central. This in turn will reduce the amount of commuters that will use Penn Station. Unfortunately the project is gonna blow the budget and is behind schedule by about 2-3 yrs.

Essentially the future of penn station will be for Amtrak and NJT, with LIRR passengers nearly halved

Don't forget Staten Island, the city is looking to dump a ton of money into that borough.

 

[Dalagaze]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

The Rangers could play in Puerto Rico and still make more money than most of the league.

 

[Tawnos]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

Well, not quite accurate. The Garden would lose the battle to stay where they are, but they'd win the war, because the city would be on the hook for finding them a new home, one which would end up being better for the bottom line in the long run. Would they get the same property tax break? The depends on the makeup of the city council in 10 years, which is impossible to predict right now. If I were Dolan, I would look to start backing candidates who will be on his side when the issue comes up again. Also, as far as I remember, the renovations were started before the city starting making noise about the permit.

And the Rangers have more than enough income to continue spending lavishly even if they lose the tax break. Have no fears on that front.

 

[East Coast Bias]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

I'm confused by this. Do you mean on players? This isn't the old days - there's a salary cap.

 

[trueblue9441]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

why would MSG think they wouldnt get their permit extended perpetually? every other large venue in the city has gotten theirs taken care of, so why wouldnt MSG corp believe the same?

should they get over on the taxes? absolutely not and i'm willing to bet that one of the trade offs when the 10 year permit is finished and they are negotiating a deal to stay where they are for another 20 or so years, that the garden will have to pay property taxes and help with infrastructure improvements to penn station.

also, MSG is not moving to Staten Island. the city if it tries to use eminent domain will try and find a place to build a new MSG in manhattan near mass transit options.

 

[Doctyl]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

You do know that there is a salary cap in the NHL right?

 

[Ail]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

Lol seriously? Would this move suddenly make the Rangers not an original six team with one of the biggest and most loyal fanbases in the league? Unless it did your dreams of the Rangers not being able to spend to the cap year to year are pretty much just that.

 

[Chaels Arms]

This.

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well. Moving would see them put on a level playing field with everyone else, there wouldn't be lavish spending anymore for the Rangers in the off season.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

You're aware of the salary cap, right?

 

[nevesis]

You're aware of the salary cap, right?

I would hope he is...

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

the city/state govt should focus on building a new tunnel into manhattan to increase train capacity and further expanding the station into the post office.

the best option they gave there is removing the MSG theatre, building a new entrance on 8th ave and then building the gateway tunnel project and adding tracks to MSG south under 30th-31st streets.

Talk to Gov. Christie, he cancelled that plan.

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

why would MSG think they wouldnt get their permit extended perpetually? every other large venue in the city has gotten theirs taken care of, so why wouldnt MSG corp believe the same?

should they get over on the taxes? absolutely not and i'm willing to bet that one of the trade offs when the 10 year permit is finished and they are negotiating a deal to stay where they are for another 20 or so years, that the garden will have to pay property taxes and help with infrastructure improvements to penn station.

also, MSG is not moving to Staten Island. the city if it tries to use eminent domain will try and find a place to build a new MSG in manhattan near mass transit options.

Another site being talked about is near the Javits Center (which is too small-Cuomo has talked about replacing it with a much larger one). The subway extension is about to open...

Also, I've seen in several business publications (although I don't have a link) that say the cost of the rennovation will be paid off much more quickly than originally suggested. Wherever the Garden ends up, it will be profitable and the Ranger organization will be capable of spending the maximum allowed to ice a team.

 

[dstoffa]

This would be a war of attrition and the Garden would lose, the city has wanted that land for a very long time and MSG was able to stick their butts there 40 more years, but now that is over.

The City could have bought Penn Station back in the 60's, but refused. It was one of the hopes of the protesting architects that the city or the Port Authority would buy and save Penn Station from the wrecking ball. They didn't want it.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well.

If you believe that in nine years time a new site will be cleared, a new arena built, and the current Garden demolished, I have a bridge to sell you. It will take YEARS if not DECADES for those who want a say (Community Boards, Environmentalists, etc.) to be appeased and allow the plan to move forward.

In nine years, the Garden will get another ten years.

I have no idea where the Rangers would move, but 100% they will have to move, there is no way they can stay where they are with the city essentially having the upper hand.

The City has no upper hand. It will be detente. MSG is private property. The City will need to buy the buildings from the Dolans at market value and find them a new home. The government doesn't have the money. And in all this, nobody is addressing the office tower on 7th avenue...

It will be a battle in the courts for 20 years.

The Garden isn't going anywhere..

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

The City could have bought Penn Station back in the 60's, but refused. It was one of the hopes of the protesting architects that the city or the Port Authority would buy and save Penn Station from the wrecking ball. They didn't want it.

Dolan knew about this and he did the renovations anyway, that is what isn't being said. The MSG site has garnered a ton of cash that has been the catalyst for the team being as rich as it has been, they get over on taxes as well.

If you believe that in nine years time a new site will be cleared, a new arena built, and the current Garden demolished, I have a bridge to sell you. It will take YEARS if not DECADES for those who want a say (Community Boards, Environmentalists, etc.) to be appeased and allow the plan to move forward.

In nine years, the Garden will get another ten years.



The City has no upper hand. It will be detente. MSG is private property. The City will need to buy the buildings from the Dolans at market value and find them a new home. The government doesn't have the money. And in all this, nobody is addressing the office tower on 7th avenue...

It will be a battle in the courts for 20 years.

The Garden isn't going anywhere..

Now this is real.

They will have to pay huge money AND find a place that has more upside for the Rangers and Dolans. They don't own the private land(thank god), so the Rangers stay for a much longer time.

And Islanders dude or whatever, each team has the same salary cap. But nice try.

 

[Tawnos]

The Garden isn't going anywhere..

Well, not unless the city makes it sweet enough. The eminent domain issues would be solved if they did this as part of a larger project. Similar to how the Garden would be moved already if the city would have just kept the tax exemption for it in the new location.

The city needs to recognize that the leverage is ultimately on the side of the Garden and work with them instead of trying to strong arm them. In 10 years, maybe the people who so badly wanted the West Side Stadium will no longer be in council and the conditions will be better then to get this done.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Well, not unless the city makes it sweet enough. The eminent domain issues would be solved if they did this as part of a larger project. Similar to how the Garden would be moved already if the city would have just kept the tax exemption for it in the new location.

The city needs to recognize that the leverage is ultimately on the side of the Garden and work with them instead of trying to strong arm them. In 10 years, maybe the people who so badly wanted the West Side Stadium will no longer be in council and the conditions will be better then to get this done.

Eminent domain is an empty threat because the city wouldn't have the cash to follow through.

 

[Tawnos]

Eminent domain is an empty threat because the city wouldn't have the cash to follow through.

Which is exactly the point. The threat isn't the eminent domain. The threat is not renewing the permit which allows the Garden to host large events. The Rangers/Knicks respond with threatening to not play there, forcing the city to acknowledge the only way they could do anything with the site is through eminent domain. Essentially, the Garden would be calling the city's bluff on the eminent domain front, leaving the council with the choice of an empty building or giving into the Garden's demand.

As I said, if the city just works with them and agrees to move the tax exemption with the team, there's no reason this couldn't get done.