News Article: MSG gets 10 year permit

[Crease]

I don't necessarily mind the conversation but we're getting very close to a political debate, which is against forum rules.

 

[rkhum]

So as I understand it, the Dolans were willing to build a new MSG at the Farley Post Office building but that was very complicated and required
A. Farley Post Office to be destroyed
B. A new train station (Monayahan) to be built under the new MSG to supplement or replace Penn Station?

True?


Then:

2) The economy dove, making the Monayahan Station project put on life support, the Dolans rightfully could not wait on a likely dead project so they went ahead and renovated?

Is this basically it?

3) Now, having renovated, this vote just means the lease will be up for renewal in 10 years...it does not mean they will be forced to move and hence this is overreaction?

 

[Brooklyn Ranger]

The new MSG building was supposed to be built in back of the Post Office. There was never any discussion about destroying the building.

 

[Tawnos]

So as I understand it, the Dolans were willing to build a new MSG at the Farley Post Office building but that was very complicated and required
A. Farley Post Office to be destroyed
B. A new train station (Monayahan) to be built under the new MSG to supplement or replace Penn Station?

True?


Then:

2) The economy dove, making the Monayahan Station project put on life support, the Dolans rightfully could not wait on a likely dead project so they went ahead and renovated?

Is this basically it?

3) Now, having renovated, this vote just means the lease will be up for renewal in 10 years...it does not mean they will be forced to move and hence this is overreaction?

A few things.

MSG backed out of the Post Office project because the city wasn't willing to transfer their tax breaks to the new location.

I don't think the Post Office building was going to be destroyed.

And finally, Dolan owns MSG. There is no lease to be negotiated. What we're talking about is a permit that allows them to run the venue at that location.

Not granting a new permit wouldn't be the end of the process. It's private property. There's all sorts of eminent domain/Bill of Rights issues that would have to be sorted out, likely involving the city paying Dolan fair market value for the property and doing the legwork in finding a spot for relocation of the Garden. What do you guys think fair market will be on that property in 10 years? $5B? $10B? And beyond all that, getting rid of MSG doesn't do a whole lot to fix the Penn Station issue.

 

[dstoffa]

So as I understand it, the Dolans were willing to build a new MSG at the Farley Post Office building but that was very complicated and required
A. Farley Post Office to be destroyed
B. A new train station (Monayahan) to be built under the new MSG to supplement or replace Penn Station?

True?


Then:

2) The economy dove, making the Monayahan Station project put on life support, the Dolans rightfully could not wait on a likely dead project so they went ahead and renovated?

Is this basically it?

3) Now, having renovated, this vote just means the lease will be up for renewal in 10 years...it does not mean they will be forced to move and hence this is overreaction?

Garden V was to be located west of the existing Farley building, which is landmarked. The intention was to put Amtrak ops into Farley, and reconfigure the existing Penn spaces for NJT and LIRR. THey'd need to build new platforms and access in Farley to make this happen. Commuters would use existing Penn. Long distance travelers (Amtrak) would use Farley.

The PRR sold the air rights and everything about street level to MSG Corporation in the late 50's. Everything you see on the street bound by 7th Av, 31st St, 8th Av, and 33rd St is private property. There is no lease to re-new.

See below for 10-year permit issues.

The new MSG building was supposed to be built in back of the Post Office. There was never any discussion about destroying the building.

Yes.

A few things.

MSG backed out of the Post Office project because the city wasn't willing to transfer their tax breaks to the new location.

The deal between the City and Gulf-Western / Paramount back in 1982 was that the city would subsidize the Garden's Con Ed bill and reduce their property taxes as long as the Knicks and Rangers played their home games in the current Garden.

When I first read about MSG V, I said to myself, "They'll never move. The breaks they get from the city will never be made up by new / additional *suite* revenue.

I don't think the Post Office building was going to be destroyed.

Correct. It was going to be remodeled to be a train station. The USPS no longer uses the majority of the building.

And finally, Dolan owns MSG. There is no lease to be negotiated. What we're talking about is a permit that allows them to run the venue at that location.

Not granting a new permit wouldn't be the end of the process. It's private property. There's all sorts of eminent domain/Bill of Rights issues that would have to be sorted out, likely involving the city paying Dolan fair market value for the property and doing the legwork in finding a spot for relocation of the Garden. What do you guys think fair market will be on that property in 10 years? $5B? $10B? And beyond all that, getting rid of MSG doesn't do a whole lot to fix the Penn Station issue.

Yes. Not renewing the permit would be the beginning of many many lawsuits.

Forget about the value of the Garden property... Just think about what the City is going to have to pay to relocate the Garden in a comparable area! Two whole city blocks. Near a train station. Near subways. Not only do they need to buy those blocks, they'll need to prepare the site for a new Garden.

And as the poster I am quoting has written, it solves NOTHING with regards to Penn Station's capacity. I've written before it will get pretty ugly if / when they decide to expand Penn by adding tracks, platforms, and tunnels under the rivers in order to move more people.

Cheers!
-Doug

 

[trueblue9441]

basically, the platforms/tracks issue was one they should have tackled when they built this MSG back in the 60's

 

[DekeR]

basically, the platforms/tracks issue was one they should have tackled when they built this MSG back in the 60's

Thats a tough call, pick any decade and you will always find money being tight. I doubt that the ridership in the 60's is comparable to the ridership of today. But no government is willing to predict what is required 50 yrs from now and build accordingly. Technology alone can make what is being done now obsolete in 50 yrs.

 

[GordonGecko]

Thats a tough call, pick any decade and you will always find money being tight. I doubt that the ridership in the 60's is comparable to the ridership of today. But no government is willing to predict what is required 50 yrs from now and build accordingly. Technology alone can make what is being done now obsolete in 50 yrs.

In the 60's everyone assumed the train was going to go the way of the horse buggy. Gee, cars can't move the 10 million people living outside NYC easily in and out? You don't say!!

 

[dstoffa]

basically, the platforms/tracks issue was one they should have tackled when they built this MSG back in the 60's

Not the city's call. The station, the tracks, and the tunnels under the river were owned (at that time) by the Pennsylvania Railroad. (They are now owned by Amtrak.) They were privately financed and built in the 1900's. After the WW2, breakthroughs in air travel began siphoning off long distance passenger traffic from all railroads. The federal highway act began siphoning off medium distance traffic.

Greyhound buses could operate at a far less cost, because they used government built roads. Railroads needed to maintain their rights of way, not to mention pay taxes on them. Airlines paid fees to municipalities to land and take off at airports. Every limb was being cut off the railroads. By the middle of the 50's, the most profitable thing railroads could do was move freight long distances. Penn Station NY didn't have a role.

If you see photos of old Penn Station towards the end of its life, you will see that it was not maintained. It was dirty, filled with soot, just like Grand Central before they cleaned it up. It looked like a dark, grey, soot filled tomb. People wanted new. And new meant jet travel and auto travel. People stopped using trains for long distance travel.

In the 60's everyone assumed the train was going to go the way of the horse buggy. Gee, cars can't move the 10 million people living outside NYC easily in and out? You don't say!!

Actually the LIRR was filling the coffers and was one of the most profitable arms of the Pennsy. The success of the LIRR turned Penn Station into a commuter RR depot; it was no longer the long distance depot it was designed to be. PRR no longer needed all the red-caps, all the ticketing offices, all the baggage handling areas. They were losing money hand over fist on Penn Station, and were very eager to get rid of it. (They were losing $1 million or more a year in operations on the station back in the 50's. The PRR did to Penn Station what the City of New York did to the old Miller Highway on the West Side - as little as possible to keep it standing.) When the Garden came calling looking for a new home, the Pennsy was more than happy to divest itself of the structure above the street. They got their smaller station, suited for the operating conditions of the time.

Remember, no tracks or platforms were removed during the 60's. The amount of walking space (square footage) found in Penn Station for passenger movements now is comparable to that in 1955. The only difference is when you look up. In 1955, you looked up and either saw an iron and glass train shed or a huge waiting room with murals of world maps. Now, you look up and see fluorescent lighting fixtures. The concourses were ALWAYS below street level. The Main Waiting Room was below street level. Even the taxi-ways were below street level in the original Penn. The only thing at grade was the arcade of shops on the 7th avenue end, which is now the atrium area around the office tower and the entrance from 7th avenue to the Garden.

 

[db2011]

Yes yes yes. I've been all over Europe. Nowhere have I seen subways as dirty and as ugly as in NY.

Anyway, why didn't they bring this up before renovations started? So dumb.

I don't see the problems with the subways, I have a high opinion of them. Subways in Europe are cleaner but they service a lot fewer people. Best thing about NYC subways is they're on a 24-hour schedule.

 

[GordonGecko]

The Times seems to think that the Garden is being evicted in 10 years:

"the New York City Council has told Madison Square Garden that it has 10 years to vacate and find a new home"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/opinion/fixing-penn-station-without-rebuilding-it.html

 

[Krams]

Doubt that ever comes to fruition, but if MSG were evicted and Dolan moved the team to White Plains, I think I'd become a STH. Would not be able to control happiness.

 

[Crease]

"the New York City Council has told Madison Square Garden that it has 10 years to vacate and find a new home"

Empty threat is empty.

 

[Levitate]

I think that's just a misinterpretation of the 10 year lease, not that they were specifically told "find a new home", since the city would have to be heavily involved in that

 

[Baby Punisher]

The Times seems to think that the Garden is being evicted in 10 years:

"the New York City Council has told Madison Square Garden that it has 10 years to vacate and find a new home"

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/opinion/fixing-penn-station-without-rebuilding-it.html

The article is an op-ed & is an opinion not based on any real facts. If MSG is too move in ten years they need to start the relocation process NOW. To my knowledge that has not happened & most likely won't anytime soon.

I could see MSG moving in 15-20 years, not ten. What ever the Dolans decide to do the bottom line will be they're bottom line.

 

[Fanned On It]

I don't see the problems with the subways, I have a high opinion of them. Subways in Europe are cleaner but they service a lot fewer people. Best thing about NYC subways is they're on a 24-hour schedule.

I don't mind any of the dirtiness of Manhattan. In some ways it makes me feel like I'm there and experiencing it. Granted, I've never LIVED in Manhattan for more than a week at a time so it may be different dealing with it daily for an extended period of time.

 

[GordonGecko]

Moving the Garden Would Pave the Way for a New Penn Station

October 23, 2014
by Hana R. Alberts


Visuals by KPF/Marvel

Last May, after an epic battle to limit Madison Square Garden's special permit to operate to 10 years, four fantastical sets of renderings depicting what Penn Station could look like without the arena on its top were unveiled, courtesy of a big "what if" exercise spearheaded by the Municipal Art Society and the Regional Plan Association. At MAS's summit this morning, a group of architects and city planners unveiled the next phase of research (and, of course, shiny new visualizations) in a 42-page report that details their quest to drastically improve the city's grossest transit, massively overcrowded hub by 2023. Their conclusion? That, in an ideal world, the Garden would relocate to the Morgan postal facility between 28th and 31st streets and Ninth and Tenth avenues.


http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/...would_pave_the_way_for_a_new_penn_station.php

 

[NYRFAN218]

So basically they came up with all of these ideas and still reached the same end point...how is this all being paid for?

 

[Doctyl]

After the $billion renovation...

 

[PlamsUnlimited]

Isn't Manhattan in debt? Who's paying? Dolans are gonna want a lot of money to move.

 

[Miller Time NYR]

Why doesn't the city just expand the LIRR and subway service into the site that's proposed for a new MSG? Obviously it would be an absolutely massive undertaking to make new tunnels and route trains there but it seams like the more viable option since the Dolans are not going to just roll over after investing so much money in the new renovation.

 

[ltrangerfan]

Isn't Manhattan in debt? Who's paying? Dolans are gonna want a lot of money to move.

The city has a big interest in the space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudson_Yards_Redevelopment_Project

 

[Roo Returns]

Without getting political and just from a hockey standpoint, I'm all for it..if only so the Rangers don't have such crappy ice. Penn Station has been a detriment to this team since this MSG opened.

That being said, there's so much that has to go into this especially with taxpayers or fans getting the shaft so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Blueblood9]

Why doesn't the city just expand the LIRR and subway service into the site that's proposed for a new MSG? Obviously it would be an absolutely massive undertaking to make new tunnels and route trains there but it seams like the more viable option since the Dolans are not going to just roll over after investing so much money in the new renovation.

Speaking from expieriences in construction it would actually be cheaper to move the station then moving the Garden. Especially since the city would have to pay the Dolans for MSG.

Construction time on the other hand is a different story. It would take longer to route the tracks then move the garden. Tunnel construction is tedious work that takes awhile to complete verses a new areana.

 

[Zil]

I just don't get why this wasn't breached before Dolan did a billion dollar renovation. It's not like it was a secret that they were redoing the Garden. Couldn't they have come to an agreement before the work started?