Jumptheshark
Rebooting myself
Is cups won before the year you were born a stat?
Flames fans tend to disagree
a few fan bases put the same emphasis on cups won when the Pony express was still running to cup won in the last 20 years
Is cups won before the year you were born a stat?
Flames fans tend to disagree
See these posts from this thread
The article that calls shootouts a crapshoot is from 2010. Since then we've had 3 more seasons of sample size.
I think luck is a big component of the shootout, but I just find it incredibly hard to believe that it's the only component as is claimed by a "crapshoot." In general, I'm highly skeptical when someone makes the claim that a result is based off nothing but "luck."
One of the reason the "shootout is a crapshoot" argument is so predominant is that even if you take all the shootouts for a team or player over a season, you're only coming up with 20 or so max attempts for a shooter, and triple that for a goalie. That's a tiny sample, and you're obviously going to see wild variation within it. And given that TV broadcasts typically present the stats only for that season, that's the impression that's going to be made on a fan.
Hell, even if you take all the shootout attempts Lundqvist has faced in 8 seasons, you've only got a sample of 287 shots. Shootouts might not be a complete crapshoot, but the sample sizes they operate on make it very difficult to separate luck and skill, to the extent that one is almost justified in disregarding them.
Yes, perhaps I should have worded it differently when I introduced those two articles. There is not a large enough sample size to differentiate luck vs skill.
Yes, perhaps I should have worded it differently when I introduced those two articles. There is not a large enough sample size to differentiate luck vs skill.
I'd say that there isn't for a lot of players. But I think it's fairly well-proven that a guy like Lundqvist or Nielsen are better than their peers.
It is important to note that sample size issues are ameliorated a fair amount because of how specific a situation the shootout is. 3000 shots is usually the minimum sample stats guys like to use for evaluating a goalie; but when all the shots are (if not the same type) the same situation, the requirements loosen considerably.
Speaking of which, do you know how shootout save percentage is calculated? Does it have to be a shot on goal? Because that still would hurt goalies who like to poke check in the shootout or intimidate shooters into missing the net. If it's calculated simply as % of opponent's attempts on which they fail to score, it (unlike in-game save %) would be a perfect measure of a goalie's effectiveness... over a large enough sample size, of course.
Oh yeah, definitely true on a single season basis, especially for skaters. I do think that after 8 years, we've managed to get a pretty decent sample though, at least for goalies.
This is what confuses me. The second article uses 7 years worth of data and is still not able to detect that skill differences among goalies. So I can't really conclude anything other than either i) there is no skill difference among goalies in the shootout. Or ii), we do not have enough data to detect the skill difference. Personally, I think the second explanation is more likely but for that it definitely, based on the data in the articles, seems that the sample size is not large enough yet.
Now for goalies, they are facing a few more attempts. But remember that even a season's worth of goalie data (SV%) is not very accurate in predicating future outcomes. And a goalie will face way more shots in one season then they will in shootouts over their entire career. There just is not a large enough sample size to differentiate skill from luck in the shootout
Think of it this way. For shooters at least, they are only getting at max like 10 shootout attempts per year. Multiply by 8, and you have 80 attempts. Could you determine a player's true SH% after 80 shots. Hell no. Same thing with shootout attempts.
Now for goalies, they are facing a few more attempts. But remember that even a season's worth of goalie data (SV%) is not very accurate in predicating future outcomes. And a goalie will face way more shots in one season then they will in shootouts over their entire career. There just is not a large enough sample size to differentiate skill from luck in the shootout
The NHL (correctly in my opinion) tracks this as the percentage of shooter attempts where they do not convert. It's inconsistent with "true" save percentage in this regard, of course.
My vote goes for Attendance stats.
It gets ranked on how high your yearly attendance average is, when it should be a percentage based stat. A team like Winnipeg who has a smaller arena will always be in the bottom half even if they sell out. Which makes no sense to me.
Or the Canucks who have been selling out their arena since 2003 is 10th in the league. Makes zero sense.
I hate this interpretation. Being unable to predict future results does not mean that past results are caused by "luck."
No, I get that. What confused me was the statement that there is enough data to detect skill differences.
GAA for goalies totally useless, but it could be used to evaluate team defense.
If anything, it seems to me like goalies should be rewarded, not punished, for maintaining the same save percentage over a larger sample size.
Yep, completely agree. If anything, it seems to me like goalies should be rewarded, not punished, for maintaining the same save percentage over a larger sample size.
Although I agree with your thesis, how are goaltenders currently punished for maintaining the same save percentage over a larger sample size?
I'd say the most useless stats are the ones that are so wildly inconsistent in the way they're tracked. Hits and give/takeaways come to mind for me, they're just so insanely different from building to building. It's not that those stats are entirely useless on their own, but it's pretty tough to use them effectively with how inconsistently they're tracked.