Most useless or inaccurate stat in hockey?
- Thread starter Superpest
- Start date
W for Goalies is useless.
Its a team stat. The goalie can't score for his team. Just like Wins for a pitcher in baseball.
Overrated!
Its a team stat. The goalie can't score for his team. Just like Wins for a pitcher in baseball.
Overrated!
PoutineSp00nZ
Electricity is really just organized lightning.
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
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How does a stat proclaim itself to be "super"?
Corsi does exactly what it claims to do. What are you expecting it to do beyond that?
Hollywood Burrows
Registered User
Now this is a hell of a post. You just stroll into the analytics forum and decry analytics without even bothering to present any arguments/claims whatsoever. Thanks so much for your contribution.
As others have mentioned, the NHL's hit stats are wildly inconsistent and essentially useless.
When it comes to -- accurancy -- I wonder if saving percentage isn't the most dangerous stat.
I just think the team infront of a goalie has much bigger impact -- without exception -- than most realize.
It for example seem like every year a goalie is mentioned as one of the top 3 goalies in the game/world, due to a stat that I just don't think has that meaning or impact. A stat is a stat, and will always be just that. But I don't think people reacts to other stats to the same extent.
But every year there is a goalie or two who comes into Vezina discussions, and even wins it, because playing behind a thight team, playing a ton of low scoring thight games etc.
I just think the team infront of a goalie has much bigger impact -- without exception -- than most realize.
It for example seem like every year a goalie is mentioned as one of the top 3 goalies in the game/world, due to a stat that I just don't think has that meaning or impact. A stat is a stat, and will always be just that. But I don't think people reacts to other stats to the same extent.
But every year there is a goalie or two who comes into Vezina discussions, and even wins it, because playing behind a thight team, playing a ton of low scoring thight games etc.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I agree with this sentiment. There are stats like corsi (or plus minus for that matter.) That some people will apply beyond the scope of what they are. But when they are looked at for what they are they are accurate and have uses.
But hits, because there is no unifying standard are useless and inaccurate.
It's valid to say that Corsi/Fenwick are overused by some and used without context, but to call them the most useless or inaccurate stats in hockey is ridiculous.
MonsterSurge
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- Nov 14, 2011
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Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Points.
Winning games is about scoring more goals that the opponent, not about scoring as many goals as possible with no regard to how many the opponent scores. It don't matter whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning.
Winning games is about scoring more goals that the opponent, not about scoring as many goals as possible with no regard to how many the opponent scores. It don't matter whether you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning.
Fuzzy Bunny
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- Mar 5, 2007
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+/- and hits.
There are others that are not an accurate description of the individual due to it being dependent on teamwork, but those two I have never cared for.
There are others that are not an accurate description of the individual due to it being dependent on teamwork, but those two I have never cared for.
ColdSteel2
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Hits is a good one, also shooting percentage. It doesn't let you see how the goals were scored and at the end of the day, you just want the goals.
The best stats I have seen :
1) games played - gives us a straight up fundamental look at how much the guy played on the team and his durability over his career
2) goals , assists point . The goal of the game is to score goals. How much does the guy contribute?
3) TOI . This stat tell us how much the coaching staff values the player and what role they play on the team. We can see year by year how much his game as improved or devolved due to injury or whatnot by his TOI
These stats tell us 90% of what we need to know about any given player. But they are not the final word. This is the foundation. We need to fill in the details.
4) Penalty minutes. We can then tell what kind of temperament a player has while on the ice. Is the guy a fighter? Agitator? If not, why the lazy penalties? Do the PIM serve a purpose or are they destructive by putting his team shorthanded.
5) Plus minus. - this stat is misleading but can be useful if its put into context of where the player plays. If he plays on the first line, being a minus is generally regarded as not working hard enough in his own zone. Floating. Being a minus on the second line often means you are not doing your job Being a minus on the third line is often acceptable as the checking line. Being a plus as a hard match checking line carries prestige.
Generally speaking, the plus minus is often a team stat. Teams that win have most of their players as a plus .
6) Shooting percentage. This stat is too misleading for my taste. Alex Ovechkin has a shooting percentage of about 13% but that does not include the 400 shots he takes that go wide. If you take the total attempts at the net , then it drops down to 4% .
Shooting percentage is far more accurate for guys who should rarely shoot at all, thus you can see how accurate their shot is.
Anyways. These are the stats that are useful to me, but do not include goaltender stats.
For me the best stat for a goalie is save percentage but even that gets skewed by teams boxing opponents out and thus the goalie gets a ton of shots from the side or far away to pad his totals.
1) games played - gives us a straight up fundamental look at how much the guy played on the team and his durability over his career
2) goals , assists point . The goal of the game is to score goals. How much does the guy contribute?
3) TOI . This stat tell us how much the coaching staff values the player and what role they play on the team. We can see year by year how much his game as improved or devolved due to injury or whatnot by his TOI
These stats tell us 90% of what we need to know about any given player. But they are not the final word. This is the foundation. We need to fill in the details.
4) Penalty minutes. We can then tell what kind of temperament a player has while on the ice. Is the guy a fighter? Agitator? If not, why the lazy penalties? Do the PIM serve a purpose or are they destructive by putting his team shorthanded.
5) Plus minus. - this stat is misleading but can be useful if its put into context of where the player plays. If he plays on the first line, being a minus is generally regarded as not working hard enough in his own zone. Floating. Being a minus on the second line often means you are not doing your job Being a minus on the third line is often acceptable as the checking line. Being a plus as a hard match checking line carries prestige.
Generally speaking, the plus minus is often a team stat. Teams that win have most of their players as a plus .
6) Shooting percentage. This stat is too misleading for my taste. Alex Ovechkin has a shooting percentage of about 13% but that does not include the 400 shots he takes that go wide. If you take the total attempts at the net , then it drops down to 4% .
Shooting percentage is far more accurate for guys who should rarely shoot at all, thus you can see how accurate their shot is.
Anyways. These are the stats that are useful to me, but do not include goaltender stats.
For me the best stat for a goalie is save percentage but even that gets skewed by teams boxing opponents out and thus the goalie gets a ton of shots from the side or far away to pad his totals.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Winning games is about scoring more goals than the opponent, so the stat that shows how many goals-for a player personally contributed to is the most useless stat in hockey?
PensBandwagonerNo272*
Forgot About Sid
- Sep 10, 2012
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The only potential use I see with +/- is comparing players on the same team.
Comparing players from different teams is useless.
Comparing players from different teams is useless.
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates Of Arda
^^^^^ Pretty much this. +/- is a team dependant stat if their ever was one.
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates Of Arda
Yeah, and I am not saying that you can suck and sport a .940 sv% in the NHL.
But like, just by looking at how each goalie play you can carve out groups of 1-2/5/10/20/30 goalies in the league more or less. From year to year, some guys moves up and down in these groups. Some make big jumps and really keeps it together for a full year.
But at the end of the season when the goalies are evaluated for the Vezina, every year a diffrence of like +/- of 0.015 in sv% makes a world of diffrence. Any of the top 3 goalies -- from my subjective opinion -- are looks if they ice 0.940 but might not be top 3 if they get 0.925. Boborosky won it at .932, would he have been considered with .925?
So Sv% is a great stat that definitely tells you something. But to let a 0.07 diffrence make all the diffrence in the world when evaluating a goalie? Then I think its the one stat in the game that is misread teh most.
There are no bad stats, just bad analysts.
Actually SV%. is probably the most misleading and dangerous stat, only because people use it with such certitude that they ignore all it's faults.
Actually SV%. is probably the most misleading and dangerous stat, only because people use it with such certitude that they ignore all it's faults.
All goalie stats used in general hockey conversations
GAA
SV%
Wins/Win%
Come on now these all are 100% team based and yet used to determine a single player performances.... Only time these should be used to compare tendy's is when they are on the same team over large sample sized (and even that is a stretch)
GAA
SV%
Wins/Win%
Come on now these all are 100% team based and yet used to determine a single player performances.... Only time these should be used to compare tendy's is when they are on the same team over large sample sized (and even that is a stretch)
Bear of Bad News
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They're all influenced by the team (to varying degrees), but none of them are 100% team based.
hatterson
Registered User
First, If something is 100% team based then it literally wouldn't matter what goalie you put behind a team. If that were true, I (with a grand total of 0 minutes of ice hockey goalie experience) could suit up and pull the same stats as Lundqvist. I think we can both agree how absurd that is.
Second, if you can't use SV%, GAA and Wins to compare goalies, which metrics do you suppose should be used?
