Most Overrated Player by The Hockey Media?

[The Panther]

A lot of the time rankings are of star players who had 17-20 year careers or whatever. Just looking at 40% or so of those careers and ignoring the rest does not make sense to me personally but too each his own.

I'm not saying we should "ignore" the half of a player's career (it's often less than half, btw) that isn't his prime. I'm just saying that in terms of ranking players against each other, I mainly focus on the respective players' "consistent prime."

To use an easy example, let's compare maybe the two most individually impactful players ever, Orr and Gretzky. No matter whether we do the "career value" analysis you seem to favor, or whether we average out each player's career average that you also have referred to, it's inaccurate and does a disservice to one of them.

If we focus on career value, it hugely favors Gretzky. That's because he played 11-or-whatever more seasons than Orr, with way more playoff games, etc. But how much of Gretzky's 1991-92 to 1998-99 (35-40% of his career) is as good as the majority of Orr's playing level? Almost none of it, in fact. So, this makes no sense whatsoever.

Then, if we focus on per-game averages, it hugely favors Orr because he had an all-killer, no-filler career, which disservices Gretzky who was likely better than Orr over Wayne's first 12 seasons -- a period longer than Orr's entire career. So, that makes no sense whatsoever, either.

The best way to fairly compare such players is to focus on each's prime years. In Orr's case, this might be 1968 to 1975, and In Gretzky's case, this might be 1980 to 1991.

Anyway, I think I've made my point. For me, "total career value" is a completely different thing from "best" or "greatest".

 

[frisco]

I'm not saying we should "ignore" the half of a player's career (it's often less than half, btw) that isn't his prime. I'm just saying that in terms of ranking players against each other, I mainly focus on the respective players' "consistent prime."

To use an easy example, let's compare maybe the two most individually impactful players ever, Orr and Gretzky. No matter whether we do the "career value" analysis you seem to favor, or whether we average out each player's career average that you also have referred to, it's inaccurate and does a disservice to one of them.

If we focus on career value, it hugely favors Gretzky. That's because he played 11-or-whatever more seasons than Orr, with way more playoff games, etc. But how much of Gretzky's 1991-92 to 1998-99 (35-40% of his career) is as good as the majority of Orr's playing level? Almost none of it, in fact. So, this makes no sense whatsoever.

Then, if we focus on per-game averages, it hugely favors Orr because he had an all-killer, no-filler career, which disservices Gretzky who was likely better than Orr over Wayne's first 12 seasons -- a period longer than Orr's entire career. So, that makes no sense whatsoever, either.

The best way to fairly compare such players is to focus on each's prime years. In Orr's case, this might be 1968 to 1975, and In Gretzky's case, this might be 1980 to 1991.

Anyway, I think I've made my point. For me, "total career value" is a completely different thing from "best" or "greatest".

Well, I'm not sure I'm completely following but the reason why a lot of people have Gretzky ahead of Orr is their best eight years were maybe a draw, maybe Orr a little better or maybe Gretzky with a slight edge. But Gretzky is sort of the #1 overall because he had the prime years and then tacked on another ten or so years of great quality which is the separating factor.

Ideally, true greatness is the prime AND the long time consistent excellence. That's why I wouldn't rank Forsberg or Bure as high as most because they only check one box. Orr might be on a different plane as he was lapping the field by such a margin that he's just an outlier.

Anyway, as I said before, focusing exclusively on the prime eight years or whatever does inflate a certain type of player and underrate others. You can't just dismiss everything out of that eight year period. It doesn't make sense to me at least.

My Best-Carey

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's a fair case but I watched a lot of Francis and he was much more of a tertiary player, than someone who was getting his hands on and actually making the goals happen. I feel like his contributions do get underrated at times around here, but I also don't think he's nearly as impactful as guys who could create for themselves but maybe didn't have his 100 point seasons.

IDK though, it's all a matter of taste. Francis holds up to scrutiny for his consistency if nothing else. I can't take that from him.

Hard to say the guy with more assists than anyone other than Wayne Gretzky wasn't actually making goals happen.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Well, I'm not sure I'm completely following but the reason why a lot of people have Gretzky ahead of Orr is their best eight years were maybe a draw, maybe Orr a little better or maybe Gretzky with a slight edge. But Gretzky is sort of the #1 overall because he had the prime years and then tacked on another ten or so years of great quality which is the separating factor.

Ideally, true greatness is the prime AND the long time consistent excellence. That's why I wouldn't rank Forsberg or Bure as high as most because they only check one box. Orr might be on a different plane as he was lapping the field by such a margin that he's just an outlier.

Anyway, as I said before, focusing exclusively on the prime eight years or whatever does inflate a certain type of player and underrate others. You can't just dismiss everything out of that eight year period. It doesn't make sense to me at least.

My Best-Carey

I get where you're coming from.

Forsberg was significantly better than Bure though: Better point producer, much better overall at ES, better in playoffs too.

 

[Wackster]

Kucherov, he's been labeled by many a future HOF after two great years. Yes he might do it but considering how long it took him to become a ppg player he's going to have to stay around for a while and stop choking in the playoffs to even come close to where the media puts him.

I think he did...

 

[Wackster]

MAF easily.

Media and some fans love to talk about him like a future HOF'er and act like he was as important to the Pens as Crosby or Malkin. When really he was a passenger.

Only 1 of the 3 Cups were with him as the starter.

2016, he started 1 game in the playoffs while Murray was lights out.

2017, was a split load (15 for MAF, 11 for Murray). But it was Murray who played the 2nd half of the conference finals and the entire Cup finals.

He's never been a consistently elite/top 10 goalie in his career.

Sv% top 10: 5, 6, 10
GAA top 10: 3, 8, 9
Vezina: 4, 5, 7, 8
Never an AS-1 or AS-2 (best finish is AS-4)

People point to the wins, but a trash can would've racked up wins on those Penguins teams.

He's in the same mold as Joseph and Osgood. The exception being Joseph and Osgood have better individual stats and finishes than MAF

And than he wins the Vezina and also give one of the worst goal since Steve Smith and cost the series the his team... That guy is a pure headache

 

[Albatros]

In the media? Gretzky, Orr, McDavid are above all criticism so it must be one of them.

 

[Wackster]

Niedermayer, Crosby, Getzlaf

How can a guy whoo is 7 in PPG all time be overrated. I get that you don't like him but calling him overrated is plain dumb

 

[blogofmike]

How can a guy whoo is 7 in PPG all time be overrated. I get that you don't like him but calling him overrated is plain dumb

Not really. Overrated doesn't mean terrible.

Ranking the NHL's 100 Greatest Players: Nos. 20-1

For me Crosby at #9 seems high and it's really more noticeable when someone is ranked in the top 10 by the media (as opposed to my windmill tilting against Norm Ullman being 100 spots too high at #101 on the Top 200.)

Now the Dionne pick is probably the most overrated there (some may go for Messier, Yzerman or Coffey, and that's only if you don't click outside the Top 20 to find Gartner, Lafontaine, Shanahan, etc.) but Crosby at #9 is overrated to me and not atypical of media rankings.

 

[MadLuke]

That's a fair case but I watched a lot of Francis and he was much more of a tertiary player, than someone who was getting his hands on and actually making the goals happen. I feel like his contributions do get underrated at times around here, but I also don't think he's nearly as impactful as guys who could create for themselves but maybe didn't have his 100 point seasons.

IDK though, it's all a matter of taste. Francis holds up to scrutiny for his consistency if nothing else. I can't take that from him.

That sound a bit harsh for a player that did lead is team in scoring at least 7 time: 83, 85, 87, 88, 90, 2000, 2002 (at 38)

 

[MadLuke]

How can a guy whoo is 7 in PPG all time be overrated. I get that you don't like him but calling him overrated is plain dumb

If people rate him above the person subjective perceived rightful place, it is possible for Mario Lemieux, Dionne, Bossy, Forsberg to be overrated even if they are in the top 10 ppg of all time.

Has for the long prime versus hotter but shorter one, both have value in the context to try to win a cup.

But the recent very long prime (Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby) or Sakic-Roy-Brodeur-Lidstrom before that do show that has a lot of value in the ability to create multiple cup windows, but it tend to need to be hot enough to actually convert (see Thornton-Marleau very long prime). The Sedin's for example reached the very top of the league, but for a very short time, would they have had a long prime it would have started before the hot short Naslund-Bertuzzi finished or made possible to retry in the final later on.

 

[psycat]

Well, to argue that Henrik was the "clear" best is debatable, but I'd probably be inclined to agree. He is similar to Price in putting up a very strong period of play followed by uneven play.

Price gets pumped up a bit because of his international record as well.



You're using plus/minus and PK time to try and establish that a player is mediocre defensively. I'm not on board with that.

I don't think that Crosby is some kind of defensive superstar, but I also don't give a lot of credence to the idea that PK time = good defensive player.

Under Jacques Martin, Ottawa never had a top six forward on the PK. It was part of his system. Daniel Alfredsson, who was later revealed to be the team's best PKer (playing 3 on 5 shifts), was reserved for the PP as far as special teams were concerned.

Using your argument, he's a poor defensive player. He isn't, he just wasn't put in the situation to succeed as it was his even-strength and PP value that trumped his SH value when taking into account the abilities of the other players on the squad.

Similarly, Erik Karlsson went a season without giving up a SH goal. However, he played so much at even strength, and on the PP, where his advantage over his peers was far greater, that it wasn't worth it to put him out in those situations.

Whether or not you think they are good defensive players, my argument is that using utilization to prove it is a poor argument IMO.

Darren Helm did a lot of the heavy lifting for Datsyuk on the PK at times in Detroit. Does that mean he's automatically a better defensive player? Or do other considerations arise?

Not to mention, I don't typically hear Crosby's name among the top defensive forwards in the league - I hear Bergeron, Couturier, Stone, Giroux, Barkov, Schwartz, among others.

It's not like he's in the running for the Selke, so I'm not sure how his defensive play is being overrated.



Having played almost 600 (or 66%!) more games.

Calling Mario Lemieux overrated is one of the more unusual takes I've seen on this site.

Realised how old thread is nvm!

 

[JackSlater]

Ranking the NHL's 100 Greatest Players: Nos. 20-1

Damn, I recently stumbled across the IIHF website's "all time national teams" and found them painful but thescore is really pushing things.

 

[VanIslander]

By the media?

No way Howe or Gretzky.

Orr or Crosby, maybe.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Still. This is the HOH. Do you really think Matthews is one of the most overrated in league history? For a handful of years being ranked a few spots high?

Yeah,the nerve of Matthews accepting a trophy for scoring the most goals.

 

[Sentinel]

I get where you're coming from.

Forsberg was significantly better than Bure though: Better point producer, much better overall at ES, better in playoffs too.

Forsberg also played on much better teams. Bure had one legendary playoff run, when he had a semblance of a team around him.

And let's not forget goals.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Not really. Overrated doesn't mean terrible.

Ranking the NHL's 100 Greatest Players: Nos. 20-1

For me Crosby at #9 seems high and it's really more noticeable when someone is ranked in the top 10 by the media (as opposed to my windmill tilting against Norm Ullman being 100 spots too high at #101 on the Top 200.)

Now the Dionne pick is probably the most overrated there (some may go for Messier, Yzerman or Coffey, and that's only if you don't click outside the Top 20 to find Gartner, Lafontaine, Shanahan, etc.) but Crosby at #9 is overrated to me and not atypical of media rankings.

It's a mostly defensible top 20, although with some controversial rankings for sure... but where are Beliveau, Hull and Mikita? Seems like at least two of them should be on that list, no matter what your criteria.

 

[YippieKaey]

Here we go again....

Phil Esposito could score with Orr or without him. He became the first ever 100 point scorer(126) before Orr had his offensive breakthrough...and had a Hart-Ross season in '74, when Orr was injured.

Yeah if anything he is underrated due to his unorthodox style. Amazing goalscorer and playmaker

 

[YippieKaey]

If you listen to Spittin Chicklets regularly, Scott Niedermayer has been praised numerous times. (Scott Gomez and Chris Pronger in particular. If the thread was underrated - then Niedermayer is a likely answer.

But those guys are kind of like Gretzky, everybody is the best player in the world. Chris Pronger for instance was far better than Niedermayer.

 

[The Panther]

Whoa, that top-20 was a little off. Mark Messier was way too high, Sakic and Yzerman too high, Coffey too high.

Anyway, player rankings are kind of meh to me. Not worth getting worked up over.

 

[YippieKaey]

Hard to say the guy with more assists than anyone other than Wayne Gretzky wasn't actually making goals happen.

Yeah the guy scored 119 points in the DPE. That´s very impressive

 

[scott clam]

Yeah the guy scored 119 points in the DPE. That´s very impressive

Not quite the DPE yet, but impressive nonetheless.

 

[YippieKaey]

Not quite the DPE yet, but impressive nonetheless.

Really? I thought the DPE is said to have started in 94?

 

[Czech Your Math]

Really? I thought the DPE is said to have started in 94?

'94 was kinda borderline. It's fair to say it started in '94, but then '96 would be an exception due to exceptionally high PP opportunities.

 

[scott clam]

Really? I thought the DPE is said to have started in 94?

For me 95/96 borderline DPE. A lot of players still managed to hit 100 points that year. The next season for me is the true beginning of Dead Puck.