Most Overrated Forward Of All-Time?

[dcinroc]

Yes, and we know that voters get everything right, especially 1988-89 MVP votes.

Lemieux - 85G, 199P in 76 games.
Gretzky - 54G, 168P in 78 games.

Yet Gretzky gets the MVP. To paraphrase Mario: "W T F?!"

This perfectly illustrates the "Gretzky is God and we don't dare consider anyone else" mindset of many hockey people.

Correct this travesty and suddenly we have a much-closer Hart Trophy discussion, with Gretzky's long, relatively healthy career with 5 and Lemieux and his injury-riddle career with 4.

Actually, Gretzky would still have 8 Harts. He won it every year from 1980-87.

So, it would be 8 to 4.

 

[mrzeigler]

Actually, Gretzky would still have 8 Harts. He won it every year from 1980-87.

So, it would be 8 to 4.

I stand corrected. That'll learn me to not factcheck stats in an post on here.

My point about the Gretzky bias, however, still stands. That Hart vote is why I'm inclined to side with those who say he's a bit overrated.

It's not a knock on Gretzky — yes, he's great; rather, it's a swipe at those "educated" hockey minds who felt Lemieux's 199-point season wasn't the best in the NHL that year.

If the writers — the people who most influence public opinion — overvalue Gretzky in at least one situation, isn't it possible that the public does as well?

 

[amnesiac*]

Bryan Trottier

Trailed off significantly the moment Bossy was gone, and this at just 32 year of age! Not saying he wouldve been nothing without him, but surely not a 5-time Cup winner, and surely not on a top 30 player all-time list.

 

[ZIGGY68]

dave andreychuk,dino ciccarelli and petr klima

 

[lextune]

It's not a knock on Gretzky — yes, he's great; rather, it's a swipe at those "educated" hockey minds who felt Lemieux's 199-point season wasn't the best in the NHL that year.

Who says they didn't...?

I think you can see Mario's season as the best in the league that year and still give the Hart to Wayne. The Hart isn't (supposed to be) awarded to the player with the "best season".

"The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. ".

88/89 saw the Kings have 12 more wins than the year before, and lead the league in goals just by having Wayne show up, Wayne also turned a guy who had scored 32 goals the previous year into only the 5th player ever (at the time), to score 70+.......Mario's incredible 199 points only gained the Pens four more wins than the year before.

 

[mrzeigler]

Who says they didn't...?

I think you can see Mario's season as the best in the league that year and still give the Hart to Wayne. The Hart isn't (supposed to be) awarded to the player with the "best season".

"The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. "

88/89 saw the Kings have 12 more wins than the year before, and lead the league in goals just by having Wayne show up, Wayne also turned a guy who had scored 32 goals the previous year into only the 5th player ever (at the time), to score 70+.......Mario's incredible 199 points only gained the Pens four more wins than the year before.

Yeah, the definition always gets trotted out in those rare instances when the best overall player in the league doesn't win it.

Gretzky finished 31 goals behind Lemieux that year. Thirty-one! Kovalev finished only 30 goals behind Ovechkin this year on a surprisingly good (remember Koivu's comments prior to the season?) Montreal team. Why didn't he get the Hart this year? The Kings jumped from fourth to second in the Smyth in 88-89; the Habs jumped from fourth to first in the Northeast this year, yet Kovalev got not even a sniff of the Hart trophy, which is as it should be.

Fact is, this award goes to the player to embodies the story of that particular NHL season. Look back at the list of winners and you'll see that to be the case. That's why Ovechkin — with his chase for 60-plus goals got it this year, why Sid of the transformed Penguins won it the year prior. In 1988-89, the story was would Mario top 200 and perhaps even Wayne's record.

Had Gretzky been within even 20 goals of Lemieux's total, I might be able to consider your argument; but the writers snubbed one of the most historic season-long performances to worship at the altar of Gretzky.

 

[cupcrazyman]

Cam: 50 goals in 44 games. Only Gretzky better & Lemieux (tied).

nothing beats a one season wonder.

 

[cupcrazyman]

if Orr & Lemieux played longer careers then maybe we could have a debate but they didn't & i would still put Gretzky ahead of both of them.

 

[Koivu84*]

Dany Heatley gets overrated. Sure he can score goals but he's not clutch, cannot play defense and is one dimensional.

 

[nik jr]

Yeah, the definition always gets trotted out in those rare instances when the best overall player in the league doesn't win it.

Gretzky finished 31 goals behind Lemieux that year. Thirty-one! Kovalev finished only 30 goals behind Ovechkin this year on a surprisingly good (remember Koivu's comments prior to the season?) Montreal team. Why didn't he get the Hart this year? The Kings jumped from fourth to second in the Smyth in 88-89; the Habs jumped from fourth to first in the Northeast this year, yet Kovalev got not even a sniff of the Hart trophy, which is as it should be.

Fact is, this award goes to the player to embodies the story of that particular NHL season. Look back at the list of winners and you'll see that to be the case. That's why Ovechkin — with his chase for 60-plus goals got it this year, why Sid of the transformed Penguins won it the year prior. In 1988-89, the story was would Mario top 200 and perhaps even Wayne's record.

Had Gretzky been within even 20 goals of Lemieux's total, I might be able to consider your argument; but the writers snubbed one of the most historic season-long performances to worship at the altar of Gretzky.

LAK were 4th worst in '88 (12 games below .500). they were 4th best (11 games above .500) after they acquired gretzky.

much more than just moving up a couple of spots in their division.

 

[04' hockey]

lindros

had his own edition of the Hockey news one week.....oh yeah, 1 Hart Trophy

0 Cups

0 scoring titles

what else??

 

[IdiotsPickedMyName*]

Dany Heatley gets overrated. Sure he can score goals but he's not clutch, cannot play defense and is one dimensional.

Excuse me? Have you watched Dany Heatley play hockey? He isn't John Madden, but he is by far not a problem in his own end. Near the end of the season he played quite a bit of PK time for the sens with Fisher, Kelly and Alfie out.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Dany Heatley gets overrated. Sure he can score goals but he's not clutch, cannot play defense and is one dimensional.

Heatley is about equal to Saku Koivu defensively.

and he can pass and score goals equally. Not sure how that is "One dimensional"

Not clutch? Why do you say that?
His first playoff ever, he scored 12 points in 10 games. His second, his team went to the final and he tied for team lead in points with 22 points in 20 games.

Last year was terrible, but so was the entire team. Ottawa was all downhill from halfway through the season forward, and only made it to the playoffs because of the sheer amount of points they accumulated in the first half

 

[Sadekuuro]

Had Gretzky been within even 20 goals of Lemieux's total, I might be able to consider your argument; but the writers snubbed one of the most historic season-long performances to worship at the altar of Gretzky.

Hart voting is kinda funky sometimes. Gretzky won the Art Ross in '94 and didn't garner a single Hart vote, so I don't think it indicates a persistent pro-Wayne bias.

 

[shazariahl]

Excuse me, I just don't like stating the same thing a hundred times.

He was a weakling, couldn't give out a good hit, in other words, worthless on defense, well, tripping yeah he was good at that.

Played on a stacked Oilers team, in L.A. he also had good players to work with, along with that he was well protected so he could move around a lot easier.

He played a hell lotta games, career stats get high as well.

Lemieux, guy played with cancer, still was amazing, in both goal scoring and points, Gretz was good at goal scoring when he played on the Oil, in later years he was the assists man.

Again, Lemieux could hit, he got in some fights, and again, guy had cancer his PPG was higher than Gretz, his GPG was THE highest until he came back and still it's much higher than Gretz.

Richard and Hull....legendary guys played hard hit hockey back in the day and were goal scoring machines, Hull led the league 7 years in goals, then moved to the WHA ( where he was even a bigger God ).

Yeah okay, in terms of just forwards, Gretz is 5th, sorry bout that, maybe 4th depending I rate Bossy higher because Bossy had more 50 goal seasons and more consecutive 50 goal seasons and highest GPG of all time career wise with 500+ games.

But Lemieux, Hull and Richard didn't get their numbers retired league wide.

While extremely bored today and browsing some old stuff, I came across this post. Does anyone know if 99wasnotthebest is even around anymore? Judging from many of the responses in this thread (yes, I was foolish enough to read the entire thing), he was not well liked. Some of the posters also make it sound like his entire "career" here was nothing but a Gretzky hate-fest (given his name, no surprise).

I didn't really feel like making a large response to this, especially since its rather old now. I just thought the statement so amusing (and wrong) that it was worth a momentary bump.

Maybe I'm just tired...

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Messier.
"Intangibles" may have helped this guy out in major awards more so than any other player.

 

[Dark Shadows]

While extremely bored today and browsing some old stuff, I came across this post. Does anyone know if 99wasnotthebest is even around anymore? Judging from many of the responses in this thread (yes, I was foolish enough to read the entire thing), he was not well liked. Some of the posters also make it sound like his entire "career" here was nothing but a Gretzky hate-fest (given his name, no surprise).

I didn't really feel like making a large response to this, especially since its rather old now. I just thought the statement so amusing (and wrong) that it was worth a momentary bump.

Maybe I'm just tired...

No he has not been around in a long time, and yes, his career here was a giant Gretzky hate fest, although he branched off from merely hating Gretzky to other topics after awhile(Just look at his posting History). It was plainly apparent that he was another incarnation/second account of "Chooch/HockeyGirlAlberta/Gabbgool".

I am not sure if he was trying to stir the pot by making outlandish statements, or if he really believed half the posts he made.

 

[canucks4ever]

I'll agree with the guy that said Trottier, not a bad player, but certainly overrated. Older posters will use whatever excuse they want to make sure Trottier ranks above Joe Sakic on all time lists, like Trottier's defence is better and he was more physical, therefore he's still 'better'. Hogwash, Joe Sakic surpassed him years ago in accomplishments. Durability in regular season and superior playoff resume is much more important than being 10% better defensively.

Same with Bobby Clarke and Guy Lafluer, how can anyone say with an unbiased eye that thier careers are better than Joe's. Not only does Sakic dwarf Guy in longevity and defensive play, his 2001 season is arguably better than any season lafluer ever had. Scoring 118 points and shutting down the other teams top lines, Lafluer could only dream of doing that.

 

[thefifthsedin*]

Messier.
"Intangibles" may have helped this guy out in major awards more so than any other player.

yes, him and ron francis, both premium point collectors with 1756 and 1731 regular season games played respectively. not that he wasn't a good player but he never took hartford to the sky when he was the first line center there ...

oh, but the 'intangibles' ...

 

[VMBM]

No he has not been around in a long time, and yes, his career here was a giant Gretzky hate fest, although he branched off from merely hating Gretzky to other topics after awhile(Just look at his posting History). It was plainly apparent that he was another incarnation/second account of "Chooch/HockeyGirlAlberta/Gabbgool".

Actually, when looking at some of his posts (guess who's bored now), I don't think 99wasnotthebest & Chooch (=another 'troll legend') were the same person. A big part of Chooch's posting was also to praise Lemieux, Lafleur, Dryden (i.e. "Kenny"), and give backhanded compliments to Soviet players (Kharlamov in particular).

 

[Peter9]

McPhee wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie
I agree. I think the 46 should count as a 40 goal season.

Just when I think nothing's really going to amuse me today, thanks.

______

I'm waiting for someone to disagree.

 

[Salsa Shark]

Didn't see his great early Calgary and Toronto days, but it seems to me like Lanny Mcdonald is an over rated player. Am I wrong?

 

[#66]

Wow.. I thought I would stop in here and see players that were stats only or non cup winners. Instead I see Trottier, Francis, Messier, Guy and some other all time greats.

This goes down as one of the worst threads on this site.

 

[arrbez]

Wow.. I thought I would stop in here and see players that were stats only or non cup winners. Instead I see Trottier, Francis, Messier, Guy and some other all time greats.

This goes down as one of the worst threads on this site.

A mod should make a sticky post describing exactly what the word "overrated" means. I think it would help a lot of people out, who seem to confuse it with "bad". A player can be both excellent, and overrated.

Example:

I think Maurice Richard is overrated by many. I also think he's one of the top-10 forwards to ever play. These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[member 51464]

A mod should make a sticky post describing exactly what the word "overrated" means. I think it would help a lot of people out, who seem to confuse it with "bad". A player can be both excellent, and overrated.

Example:

I think Maurice Richard is overrated by many. I also think he's one of the top-10 forwards to ever play. These things are not mutually exclusive.

What number would you rank Richard at?