Most overrated flyer and underrated flyer

[NYCFlyer]

Such an odd thread.

Personally I think MDZ IS to mid pairing Dman who plays against top lines. The reason Gudas posted better numbers without MDZ is that Gjist and MDZ went against hop lines, while Gudas dropped down to play against lesser lines.

Morin does have top 4 potential. But he will always play behind Provy IMO and if MDZ is re-signed, behind him too for awhile.

No one that I remember were ever saying trade Couts because of Laughton. We had a couple of fools trying to downplay Couts and his impact on our team. They have since disappeared fir the most part. But what we DID have in Berube, was a coach who gifted Laughton offensive 2nd line minutes as a rookie. I WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE SCREAMING FOR COUTS TO BE USED IN THAT ROLE SINCE HE WAS A FORMER JR SCORING CHAMP. I WANTED LAUGHTON GIVEN THE COUTS TREATMENT AND FOCUS ON DEFENSE. AND YES, THE FEW FOOLS SAID COUTS DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH OFFENSIVE TALENT TO BE A #2 C. BUT AS I SAID, THEY HAVE PRETTY MUCH DISAPPEARED. Helps that we fired the dumb coach too.

As for Sanheim, there is only a few that are even willing to move him. And if so, it currently seems to be for Trouba who is good himself and has upside. It's not like they want to trade him for a depth forward. I want him kept because I think he can be a star with his size, skating, and offensive upside.

I'm one of the fools that thinks you need to have just the right kind of wingers for Couts to be effective offensively. I am a huge believer that championship teams need at least an elite Dman, two really strong scoring lines and dependable Gtnding. I think Couts is an excellent player but not dynamic offensively, IMO he doesn't have NHL scorers hands or mentality but is a fine passer. With the right scoring wingers it might work but count me as one of those who strongly believes our biggest organizational need to effectively compete with the top five teams in the league over the next five years is a dynamic center.

 

[kelmitchell]

Over rated is definitely manning/ vdv

Under rated I'd easily say coots

 

[Tripod]

I'm one of the fools that thinks you need to have just the right kind of wingers for Couts to be effective offensively. I am a huge believer that championship teams need at least an elite Dman, two really strong scoring lines and dependable Gtnding. I think Couts is an excellent player but not dynamic offensively, IMO he doesn't have NHL scorers hands or mentality but is a fine passer. With the right scoring wingers it might work but count me as one of those who strongly believes our biggest organizational need to effectively compete with the top five teams in the league over the next five years is a dynamic center.

Couts scored at a 51 point pace last year and 62 point pace from Nov 28th onward. IF he produces like that, there is no issue.

Our problem is that our #3 C's the past 2 years(Laughton and Cousins) have not helped out offensively OR defensively. Couts allows our other C to play easier minutes. And our bottom C's have not taken advantage of that offensively. And they have sucked defensively which puts more pressure on Couts and Giroux.

Maybe this year, Cousins, Laughton and Weise can take advantage of cushy zone starts. And with Gordon being reliable on FO, he should help G and Couts by taking more D-Zone starts.

 

[Magua]

I'm one of the fools that thinks you need to have just the right kind of wingers for Couts to be effective offensively. I am a huge believer that championship teams need at least an elite Dman, two really strong scoring lines and dependable Gtnding. I think Couts is an excellent player but not dynamic offensively, IMO he doesn't have NHL scorers hands or mentality but is a fine passer. With the right scoring wingers it might work but count me as one of those who strongly believes our biggest organizational need to effectively compete with the top five teams in the league over the next five years is a dynamic center.

No one thinks Coots is "dynamic." He's meat and potatoes offensively, with impressive physicality below the net, and very underrated passing. But all-around, he's an unbelievable play-driver. He does need good wingers, but it's a 2-way street. His dominance all-around frees up those players to do the scoring and dynamic plays. And he's not chopped liver offensively. Not to mention, what top 6 center, doesn't have top 6 wingers to help out?

He's just more of a dirty scorer. A #2C doesn't have to be "dynamic." If they are, they're probably a #1C, or perhaps a dynamic player with a lot of defensive holes. The next 5 years aren't a worry for me. It's after those 5 years, who will replace Giroux. That's my only long term worry.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

On the current roster?

Overrated: Giroux. Pains me to say it, because he's a long time favorite of mine and still a very good player. But he's not an elite even strength player anymore, though I think much of the fanbase still views him as such.

Underrated: Gudas. I'm almost tempted to put Ghost here, but Ghost still gets a lot of hype so I'll refrain even though I'm not sure people realize the full extent of how good he is. Thus I'll go Gudas. He doesn't get much fanfare, but he's a very rare type in today's NHL is he's bruising D who can actually skate and play. Took heavy minutes against top lines often last season which isn't what he's best suited for but still filled in admirably.

Overrated prospect: Morin. I think Myers has passed him. Not that I don't think Morin will be an NHLer, I just think he's a bit overhyped by the fan base.

Underrated prospect: Friedman. I really like his ability and he seems driven.

 

[Rebels57]

On the current roster?

Overrated: Giroux. Pains me to say it, because he's a long time favorite of mine and still a very good player. But he's not an elite even strength player anymore, though I think much of the fanbase still views him as such.

Underrated: Gudas. I'm almost tempted to put Ghost here, but Ghost still gets a lot of hype so I'll refrain even though I'm not sure people realize the full extent of how good he is. Thus I'll go Gudas. He doesn't get much fanfare, but he's a very rare type in today's NHL is he's bruising D who can actually skate and play. Took heavy minutes against top lines often last season which isn't what he's best suited for but still filled in admirably.

Overrated prospect: Morin. I think Myers has passed him. Not that I don't think Morin will be an NHLer, I just think he's a bit overhyped by the fan base.

Underrated prospect: Friedman. I really like his ability and he seems driven.

Girouxs drop in ES production coincided with the team losing valuable depth and forcing Giroux into tougher matchups and zone starts. That is not a coincidence and not a sign that his time as an elite ES producer is over.

 

[Magua]

Girouxs drop in ES production coincided with the team losing valuable depth and forcing Giroux into tougher matchups and zone starts. That is not a coincidence and not a sign that his time as an elite ES producer is over.

The mildly concerning part is, it really hasn't coincided with that. If you look at relative competition stats, he has routinely seen ~3rd hardest minutes every season since he was made the 1C. Since 2010-11 actually, the season before the Carter/Richards trades. And, believe it or not, the last 3 seasons, he has taken a higher percentage of o-zone face-offs than ever. 2 seasons ago his d-zone faceoff % spiked a few %, but this past year it was back to the same % it has always been. Personally, given that 2/3 of shifts don't even start with a face-off, that part doesn't concern me too much. But his usage hasn't actually changed at all since he was putting up top numbers. It's been consistent in match-ups AND starts, despite the narrative about it.

The good news is his possession stats have also been pretty identical. They haven't dropped off, despite the scoring. Last year was tough with injuries and whatnot going on with team wide struggles, and we just have to hope he snaps out of it and a revamped d corps reawakens him. The year Hall was with the team, his usage didn't change. I'm skeptical it changes much with Gordon. But I do think it's possible they actively try to take the edge off his d-zone draws. PK work too it appears. But Gordon will not be matching up against top 6 centers. That part won't change.

 

[Rebels57]

The mildly concerning part is, it really hasn't coincided with that. If you look at relative competition stats, he has routinely seen ~3rd hardest minutes every season since he was made the 1C. Since 2010-11 actually, the season before the Carter/Richards trades. And, believe it or not, the last 3 seasons, he has taken a higher percentage of o-zone face-offs than ever. 2 seasons ago his d-zone faceoff % spiked a few %, but this past year it was back to the same % it has always been. Personally, given that 2/3 of shifts don't even start with a face-off, that part doesn't concern me too much. But his usage hasn't actually changed at all since he was putting up top numbers. It's been consistent in match-ups AND starts, despite the narrative about it.

The good news is his possession stats have also been pretty identical. They haven't dropped off, despite the scoring. Last year was tough with injuries and whatnot going on with team wide struggles, and we just have to hope he snaps out of it and a revamped d corps reawakens him. The year Hall was with the team, his usage didn't change. I'm skeptical it changes much with Gordon. But I do think it's possible they actively try to take the edge off his d-zone draws. PK work too it appears. But Gordon will not be matching up against top 6 centers. That part won't change.

Less depth generally means more difficult time for top players..but I digress. The group of dman he played with also got progressively worse starting the minute Pronger went down in 2012 until it started turning the corner in early 2015.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unfortunately, he's gonna start regressing at some point too.

 

[Rebels57]

Unfortunately, he's gonna start regressing at some point too.

I still think he has 2 elite seasons left in him followed by 2 more with 1st line calibre production

 

[Beef Invictus]

His two-way play will keep him valuable for quite a bit, as well as his PP ability.

 

[Magua]

His two-way play will keep him valuable for quite a bit, as well as his PP ability.

I know a lot of people like to pencil in Konecny, probably next year, with Coots, but it may actually be more fitting to put him with Giroux. Konecny is an elite skater with top notch creativity and skills. I forget if he scored as much or scored more than Marner and Strome this past year at ES (with a weaker support cast fwiw), but the point is, he can be a dynamic, game breaking ES player/scorer. That might give him a shot in the arm, along with the offensive beasts on the back end coming his way.

 

[Gsus]

Giroux is underrated league wise imo.

Timonen was also underrated. He wasn't a true #1 but he was a leader and a great guy.

Bellemare is a solid player, may be underrated.

Gudas is underrated league wide. They think he's just a goon, but he's really not. Great to have him.

Oh and ofc, Sean Couturier. Underrated.

 

[Lord Defect]

Over rated : Neuvirth. He's a fine goalie and I have zero issues with his play, but the people that want to sign him long term and trade Mason blows my mind.

Under rated : on the main boards, Giroux, Coots, and Mason. On our boards, I actually cannot think of anyone right now.

 

[NYCFlyer]

No one thinks Coots is "dynamic." He's meat and potatoes offensively, with impressive physicality below the net, and very underrated passing. But all-around, he's an unbelievable play-driver. He does need good wingers, but it's a 2-way street. His dominance all-around frees up those players to do the scoring and dynamic plays. And he's not chopped liver offensively. Not to mention, what top 6 center, doesn't have top 6 wingers to help out?

He's just more of a dirty scorer. A #2C doesn't have to be "dynamic." If they are, they're probably a #1C, or perhaps a dynamic player with a lot of defensive holes. The next 5 years aren't a worry for me. It's after those 5 years, who will replace Giroux. That's my only long term worry.

I don't focus on labels like 1c,2c 3c. In my opinion we need another very strong center to be championship caliber. One comment on Giroux. When fully healthy and willing to go into dirty areas Giroux is a phenomenal player but he is a little guy and has been consistently banged up and less effective over the last two years. Interesting to note it corresponds with Hartnell and Jagr leaving. Im not sure we have the right kind of center for Konecny. Maybe Rubstov.

 

[BillDineen]

Overrated: Morin's offensive potential. Laughton after his post draft season, but not anymore.

Underrated: Cousins.

 

[Flyotes]

Underrated: Nick Schultz, MDZ.

 

[Curufinwe]

Overrated: Morin's offensive potential. Laughton after his post draft season, but not anymore.

Underrated: Cousins.

I agree about Cousins. His skating and physicality seem more than fine to me now, and those were always the knocks on him.

 

[YEM]

overrated: jake & bschenn
underrated: gudas & couturier

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I agree about Cousins. His skating and physicality seem more than fine to me now, and those were always the knocks on him.

I don't think he's underrated. Everyone that I've seen pretty much agrees he's a bottom six player, don't they?

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

overrated: jake & bschenn
underrated: gudas & couturier

I was actually thinking he could be considered overrated. I love Coots. He's my favorite player, but at least a year or two ago the Coots-love was out of control.

 

[Rebels57]

I don't think he's underrated. Everyone that I've seen pretty much agrees he's a bottom six player, don't they?

A lot of people only view him as a stop-gap and not a long term solution at 3C

 

[Lord Defect]

A lot of people only view him as a stop-gap and not a long term solution at 3C

That's not wrong is it?

 

[Rebels57]

That's not wrong is it?

Well that all depends.

Some people like his potential and think he can hold down that position..

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

That's not wrong is it?

Yeah that's a pretty fair assessment, I'd say. He's a bottom six guy that is pretty interchangeable with other bottom six guys. He may be here a while, he may be a stop-gap until something better comes along.

Well that all depends.

Some people like his potential and think he can hold down that position..

That could be said about almost any player though. Cousins is pretty accurately "rated" if that's the general consensus. I mean, if people are saying he's going to be a mainstay no the third line for years to come, I'd probably say that he was overrated.