Most overrated flyer and underrated flyer

[briererocks]

Some of the posts on these boards I find baffling and the consensus is one I strongly disagree with.

MDZ. Reading these boards you would think he is a legitimate top 2 defenseman or good top 4 dman. I am not convinced. Gudas had very good corsi stats and MDZ seemed to be more of a beneficiary of playing with gudas than the other way around. I would be very wary of giving MDZ big money or term. If he plays well this year I would be open to signing him for under 4 m for 4 years or trading him for a good asset. By next year, the flyers should have at least two young lhd ready to play in the nhl - provorov, sanheim, morin, hagg etc... I am sceptical of the logic of giving significant money to a lhd who may block morin hagg or someone else from getting called up or prevent them cap wise from trying to pry a top 6 forward onto the team from another team.

Morin. We accuse Toronto of homerism but morin is the king of homerism. Other fan bases think he is at best a third line dman but some on here think his ceiling is higher than provorov or sanheim. This idea is ********. He had a decent ahl season but is still not ready to play in the nhl and never has shown elite hockey sense in the d zone or ozone. Nonetheless, some have compared him to pronger, chara, Myers or whomever. I am not saying he won't be a nhl dman but the amount of hype he gets is insane. I cant imagine any other gm trading a good asset for morin as the centerpiece unless around the expansion draft on a player they would lose in the expansion.

Laughton. I remember reading posts last year suggesting we trade couturier because Laughton is better offensively. He has shown nothing at the nhl level. He has put up decent offensive numbers but has been horrible defensively and has suffered a lot of injuries. He is a big question mark and no where near as valuable as couturier who will probably break out offensively this year.

Sanheim. Want trouba let's trade sanheim ++. Want rakell. Let's trade sanheim. Want xxx let's trade sanheim. His junior offensive numbers are almost unprecedented. His skating is better than ghost. He has insane hockey iq in the o zone. He is huge and going to be a monster physically. provorov is not as good a skater as sanheim. Sanheim is a better stick handler than provorov. If sanheim can improve his d game in the ahl we have a gem. If he reaches his ceiling, he will be scary good and the type of player who never reaches free agency. But let's trade him for trouba or rakell. If it was Lindholm who has shown he can be a number 1 dman and is young then fine- trade sanheim. But sanheim is criminally underrated on these boards and does not get enough hype because if all the love showered on provorov.

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[Striiker]

Some of the posts on these boards I find baffling and the consensus is one I strongly disagree with.

MDZ. Reading these boards you would think he is a legitimate top 2 defenseman or good top 4 dman. I am not convinced. Gudas had very good corsi stats and MDZ seemed to be more of a beneficiary of playing with gudas than the other way around. I would be very wary of giving MDZ big money or term. If he plays well this year I would be open to signing him for under 4 m for 4 years or trading him for a good asset. By next year, the flyers should have at least two young lhd ready to play in the nhl - provorov, sanheim, morin, hagg etc... I am sceptical of the logic of giving significant money to a lhd who may block morin hagg or someone else from getting called up or prevent them cap wise from trying to pry a top 6 forward onto the team from another team.

Morin. We accuse Toronto of homerism but morin is the king of homerism. Other fan bases think he is at best a third line dman but some on here think his ceiling is higher than provorov or sanheim. This idea is ********. He had a decent ahl season but is still not ready to play in the nhl and never has shown elite hockey sense in the d zone or ozone. Nonetheless, some have compared him to pronger, chara, Myers or whomever. I am not saying he won't be a nhl dman but the amount of hype he gets is insane. I cant imagine any other gm trading a good asset for morin as the centerpiece unless around the expansion draft on a player they would lose in the expansion.

Laughton. I remember reading posts last year suggesting we trade couturier because Laughton is better offensively. He has shown nothing at the nhl level. He has put up decent offensive numbers but has been horrible defensively and has suffered a lot of injuries. He is a big question mark and no where near as valuable as couturier who will probably break out offensively this year.

Sanheim. Want trouba let's trade sanheim ++. Want rakell. Let's trade sanheim. Want xxx let's trade sanheim. His junior offensive numbers are almost unprecedented. His skating is better than ghost. He has insane hockey iq in the o zone. He is huge and going to be a monster physically. provorov is not as good a skater as sanheim. Sanheim is a better stick handler than provorov. If sanheim can improve his d game in the ahl we have a gem. If he reaches his ceiling, he will be scary good and the type of player who never reaches free agency. But let's trade him for trouba or rakell. If it was Lindholm who has shown he can be a number 1 dman and is young then fine- trade sanheim. But sanheim is criminally underrated on these boards and does not get enough hype because if all the love showered on provorov.

Yes, MDZ is a top 4 defensemen. He's playing at a level higher than a bottom pairing defensemen, that means he's a top 4. Doesn't mean he's going in the HoF, chill.

Yes, Morin has a higher ceiling. I think what you don't get is what the word "ceiling" means. It means the absolute best he could possibly become if everything went 100% perfect, not what he's likely become.

I'd love to see any of these posts you're talking about. I don't remember anyone saying anything about trading Couts last year, damn sure not because of Laughton.

No, Sanheim isn't underrated just because a few people put him in proposals. Maybe he is by some people, but that doesn't mean he is in general.

I think your biggest source of confusion here is not knowing the difference between being overrated/underrated on this board in general and being overrated/underrated by a tiny group of people. You say you disagree with the consensus and then mention 3 examples (Morin, Laughton, and Sanheim) that are far from being the consensus.

 

[briererocks]

Yes, MDZ is a top 4 defensemen. He's playing at a level higher than a bottom pairing defensemen, that means he's a top 4. Doesn't mean he's going in the HoF, chill.

Yes, Morin has a higher ceiling. I think what you don't get is what the word "ceiling" means. It means the absolute best he could possibly become if everything went 100% perfect, not what he's likely become.

I'd love to see any of these posts you're talking about. I don't remember anyone saying anything about trading Couts last year, damn sure not because of Laughton.

No, Sanheim isn't underrated just because a few people put him in proposals. Maybe he is by some people, but that doesn't mean he is in general.

I think your biggest source of confusion here is not knowing the difference between being overrated/underrated on this board in general and being overrated/underrated by a tiny group of people. You say you disagree with the consensus and then mention 3 examples (Morin, Laughton, arnd Sanheim) that are far from being the consensus.

Consensus is MDZ is a top 4dman but he he was booted by the rangers and predators and gudas had better corsi numbers away from mdz. I am not convinced he is a top 4dman.

Consensus is morin is a future top 4 dman. Maybe but he has not done enough to justify that consensus. He is physically overwhelming but has not shown elite hockey iq.

Consensus is sanheim is legitimate trade bait. Don't see why. He put up unprecedented offensive junior numbers and is going to be a monster physically.

Consensus for Laughton was a top 6 player. That has finally changed to a bottom 6 player. But the hype around him last year was crazy ( morin esque).

 

[CodyTheHuman]

Consensus is MDZ is a top 4dman but he he was booted by the rangers and predators and gudas had better corsi numbers away from mdz. I am not convinced he is a top 4dman.

Consensus is morin is a future top 4 dman. Maybe but he has not done enough to justify that consensus. He is physically overwhelming but has not shown elite hockey iq.

Consensus is sanheim is legitimate trade bait. Don't see why. He put up unprecedented offensive junior numbers and is going to be a monster physically.

Consensus for Laughton was a top 6 player. That has finally changed to a bottom 6 player. But the hype around him last year was crazy ( morin esque).

I believe the consensus for him all along was a middle six projected player.

 

[Stizzle]

Sanheim. Want trouba let's trade sanheim ++. Want rakell. Let's trade sanheim. Want xxx let's trade sanheim. His junior offensive numbers are almost unprecedented. His skating is better than ghost. He has insane hockey iq in the o zone. He is huge and going to be a monster physically. provorov is not as good a skater as sanheim. Sanheim is a better stick handler than provorov. If sanheim can improve his d game in the ahl we have a gem. If he reaches his ceiling, he will be scary good and the type of player who never reaches free agency. But let's trade him for trouba or rakell. If it was Lindholm who has shown he can be a number 1 dman and is young then fine- trade sanheim. But sanheim is criminally underrated on these boards and does not get enough hype because if all the love showered on provorov.

That's some impressive rambling and ranting on Travis Sanheim right there.

 

[Striiker]

Consensus is MDZ is a top 4dman but he he was booted by the rangers and predators and gudas had better corsi numbers away from mdz. I am not convinced he is a top 4dman.

Consensus is morin is a future top 4 dman. Maybe but he has not done enough to justify that consensus. He is physically overwhelming but has not shown elite hockey iq.

Consensus is sanheim is legitimate trade bait. Don't see why. He put up unprecedented offensive junior numbers and is going to be a monster physically.

Consensus for Laughton was a top 6 player. That has finally changed to a bottom 6 player. But the hype around him last year was crazy ( morin esque).

So like I said, you don't seem know what "consensus" means...

Consensus is the majority opinion... three of the four things you mentioned are minority opinions... the exact opposite of "consensus".

The real consensus is that MDZ is a top 4 defenseman now. He's not the same player he was in NY or Nashville. As for being top 2, he pretty much is on this team, but not in general, which is more of a comment on our current defense than on MDZ.

The real consensus is that Morin has the potential to be a top 4 defensemen. Nobody is saying that he's a lock to be one.

The real consensus sure as hell isn't that Sanheim is trade bait. Far more people think he's untouchable (or at least close to it) than think that he should be traded, and it's not close either.

The real consensus is that Laughton has the potential to be a middle 6 player, but he's going to need to continue improving if he wants that to be the case because he's certainly not there yet.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I would say Sanheim is quite a bit more highly thought of here than most of the other usual Flyers discussion sites. Correctly, I might add.

Sanheim was the only other guy I remember people even trying to argue for over Provorov in the offseason poll and won the #2 vote by a landslide.

 

[briererocks]

So like I said, you don't seem know what "consensus" means...

Consensus is the majority opinion... three of the four things you mentioned are minority opinions... the exact opposite of "consensus".

The real consensus is that MDZ is a top 4 defenseman now. He's not the same player he was in NY or Nashville. As for being top 2, he pretty much is on this team, but not in general, which is more of a comment on our current defense than on MDZ.

The real consensus is that Morin has the potential to be a top 4 defensemen. Nobody is saying that he's a lock to be one.

The real consensus sure as hell isn't that Sanheim is trade bait. Far more people think he's untouchable (or at least close to it) than think that he should be traded, and it's not close either.

The real consensus is that Laughton has the potential to be a middle 6 player, but he's going to need to continue improving if he wants that to be the case because he's certainly not there yet.

MDZ is not clearly a.top 4 dman. He benefited from playing with gudas who played very well lasy year and put up better numbers without mdz. With morin sanheim provorov and others knocking on the door as future lhd, I don't see why many are anxious to resign. Mdz.

Morin is considered a blue chip prospect. Other than his draft position. Why? He is big but when has shown patience holding the puck on the blue line. Is he good at the breakout. Often his errant passes result in icings. I watch him play and repeatedly cough up the puck or ice it and then read on these boards how he played wellband his incredible potential. I don't get it.

On these boards you will often find people suggesting we trade sanheim. Provorov is almost never in any trade proposals. I appreciate that provorov might be better today but to suggest that people regard sanheim as untouchable is belied by the fact that sanheim is offered up in trades while provorov is not.

 

[Magua]

Is someone cooking hot takes or is the house on fire?

 

[Striiker]

MDZ is not clearly a.top 4 dman. He benefited from playing with gudas who played very well lasy year and put up better numbers without mdz. With morin sanheim provorov and others knocking on the door as future lhd, I don't see why many are anxious to resign. Mdz.

Morin is considered a blue chip prospect. Other than his draft position. Why? He is big but when has shown patience holding the puck on the blue line. Is he good at the breakout. Often his errant passes result in icings. I watch him play and repeatedly cough up the puck or ice it and then read on these boards how he played wellband his incredible potential. I don't get it.

On these boards you will often find people suggesting we trade sanheim. Provorov is almost never in any trade proposals. I appreciate that provorov might be better today but to suggest that people regard sanheim as untouchable is belied by the fact that sanheim is offered up in trades while provorov is not.

So last year was all Gudas? Interesting. What about the year before? Was Gudas helping him from Tampa or after the trade from the pressbox while injured?

If you can't see why Morin is a good prospect or see that he's taken huge strides in his development then that's on you. You're right, you don't get it, but that doesn't mean others don't. He still has things he needs to work on and be more consistent at, but anyone saying he doesn't have a ton of potential is insane.

No, you definitely don't "often" see people suggesting we trade Sanheim. You rarely see people suggesting trading him (and then they get jumped on by the many people who don't want him traded) or you sometimes see people saying things along the lines of "I'd like to get x-player but they would be asking for Sanheim". Far from the consensus being that he's just a trade chip.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Overrated: Carcillo

Underrated: Betts

 

[usahockey22flyers]

Overrated: Carcillo

Underrated: Betts

Respect

 

[Rebels57]

MDZ is very clearly a top 4 dman. Hes not a top 2 on a contender though.

Sanheim is underrated.

Morin is rated appropriately. We are talking about potential impact. His combination of size, quickness and agility is extremely rare. Morin reaching his full potential is less likely than Provorov though because Morin doesnt think the game at an elite level yet..and he might not ever...its unpredictable.

Laughton..meh. Hated the pick then. Still dislike it now.

Bellemare I find underrated around here.

 

[Tripod]

Such an odd thread.

Personally I think MDZ IS to mid pairing Dman who plays against top lines. The reason Gudas posted better numbers without MDZ is that Gjist and MDZ went against hop lines, while Gudas dropped down to play against lesser lines.

Morin does have top 4 potential. But he will always play behind Provy IMO and if MDZ is re-signed, behind him too for awhile.

No one that I remember were ever saying trade Couts because of Laughton. We had a couple of fools trying to downplay Couts and his impact on our team. They have since disappeared fir the most part. But what we DID have in Berube, was a coach who gifted Laughton offensive 2nd line minutes as a rookie. I was one of the people SCREAMING for Couts to be used in that role since he was a former Jr scoring champ. I wanted Laughton given the Couts treatment and focus on defense. And yes, the few fools said Couts did not have enough offensive talent to be a #2 C. But as I said, they have pretty much disappeared. Helps that we fired the dumb coach too.

As for Sanheim, there is only a few that are even willing to move him. And if so, it currently seems to be for Trouba who is good himself and has upside. It's not like they want to trade him for a depth forward. I want him kept because I think he can be a star with his size, skating, and offensive upside.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bellemare I find underrated around here.

Not from me. Not sure he's an ideal 4C, but he's definitely a solid 4th liner. He's done decently centering anchors. Unsure how long he'll last before declining though.

 

[Striiker]

I think Raffl and Laughton are underrated sometimes. Schenn definitely used to be.

Manning is overrated.

Also Cousins.

 

[Rebels57]

Not from me. Not sure he's an ideal 4C, but he's definitely a solid 4th liner. He's done decently centering anchors. Unsure how long he'll last before declining though.

Yeah there are a select few that think hes worthless and question whether hes a lock to make the team.

Hes a 100% lock

He PK wells, can be trusted defensively, is versatile position-wise and will chip in with a goal or assist every so often.

He should be a perfect 4RW this season.

 

[Vikke]

Underrated is Giroux.

 

[briererocks]

So last year was all Gudas? Interesting. What about the year before? Was Gudas helping him from Tampa or after the trade from the pressbox while injured?

If you can't see why Morin is a good prospect or see that he's taken huge strides in his development then that's on you. You're right, you don't get it, but that doesn't mean others don't. He still has things he needs to work on and be more consistent at, but anyone saying he doesn't have a ton of potential is insane.

No, you definitely don't "often" see people suggesting we trade Sanheim. You rarely see people suggesting trading him (and then they get jumped on by the many people who don't want him traded) or you sometimes see people saying things along the lines of "I'd like to get x-player but they would be asking for Sanheim". Far from the consensus being that he's just a trade chip.

Two years ago we did not make the playoffs even though giroux voracek and streit had great years. If mdz played as well as you say we should have been in the playoffs. I am not saying mdz isn't a top 4 dman. I just think it is far from a certainty that he is and it is problematic to resign him with all of our lhd prospects who are almost ready and the cap space we need to go after a top 6 forward.

Morin has potential. But he has ALOT of holes in his game. He is not good at the breakout. He is.not good in the ozone. Despite these big flaws he is regarded as a blue chip prospect primarily due to his physical gifts and draft position. As such he is overrated.

With respect to sanheim it isnt true. He is offered up by flyer fans though others respond by saying they would not trade him. There is a large segment that view provorov as untouchable while sanheim as expendable.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Underrated is Giroux.

Last I checked, Mason was being underrated too.


And also Timonen.

 

[kudymen]

Last I checked, Mason was being underrated too.


And also Timonen.

Timonen will always be underrated. Its impossible to appreciate all aspects of him creating the universe, Chuck Norris and sliced bread on the same day

 

[Beef Invictus]

Two years ago we did not make the playoffs even though giroux voracek and streit had great years. If mdz played as well as you say we should have been in the playoffs. I am not saying mdz isn't a top 4 dman. I just think it is far from a certainty that he is and it is problematic to resign him with all of our lhd prospects who are almost ready and the cap space we need to go after a top 6 forward.

Morin has potential. But he has ALOT of holes in his game. He is not good at the breakout. He is.not good in the ozone. Despite these big flaws he is regarded as a blue chip prospect primarily due to his physical gifts and draft position. As such he is overrated.

With respect to sanheim it isnt true. He is offered up by flyer fans though others respond by saying they would not trade him. There is a large segment that view provorov as untouchable while sanheim as expendable.

Hold on, what? We made the 2014 playoffs. We didn't have MDZ at the time.

Do you mean 2015?

And how are you blaming MDZ for a truly ABYSMAL coaching performance that year? The team had a failure of a system run by a man whose personnel choices minimized chances of winning.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Brandon Manning is underrated as an HFBoards poster.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Current Flyer overrated: probably no one, but I'll say Ghost because he's the golden boy. Other than him I think there isn't any other player on such a pedestal.

Current Flyer underrated: AMac. He's not as bad as folks make him out to be.

Prospect overrated: Myers. You all know how I feel.

Prospect underrated: Hagg. Seems to be forgotten about.

Recently overrated no longer here: Gus. A top four defender that couldn't stick on a team with no discernible talent on defense and now is in the KHL.

Recently underrated no longer here: Luke Schenn. Same as AMac. Not as bad as folks said.

 

[Striiker]

Two years ago we did not make the playoffs even though giroux voracek and streit had great years. If mdz played as well as you say we should have been in the playoffs. I am not saying mdz isn't a top 4 dman. I just think it is far from a certainty that he is and it is problematic to resign him with all of our lhd prospects who are almost ready and the cap space we need to go after a top 6 forward.

Morin has potential. But he has ALOT of holes in his game. He is not good at the breakout. He is.not good in the ozone. Despite these big flaws he is regarded as a blue chip prospect primarily due to his physical gifts and draft position. As such he is overrated.

With respect to sanheim it isnt true. He is offered up by flyer fans though others respond by saying they would not trade him. There is a large segment that view provorov as untouchable while sanheim as expendable.

I'm not going through all this again...

Just go back and read my previous posts until it sinks in.