Most misleading record holder?

[Bear of Bad News]

See your post #147.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=985297&page=6

Start with your basic idea that the object of the game is to win, not tie or lose.

Plante's goaltending allowed the Canadiens to win more often during the regular season. Evidenced in the comparisons to other goaltenders

Regulation wins by total decisions. That Patrick Roy goes over 50% by such a metric is fine, but it leaves unanswered the question what happened in the games where he was not involved in the decision. Why was he pulled,etc. Plante was there from start to finish - see Nov. 1, 1959.

Regardless it does not change the contribution that Plante made.

Nothing in your post contradicts anything in the post that you culled from the other thread, nor does it answer my points that have been presented in this thread.

By the way, the URL you provided does not work - try linking to the post number instead of the page number (since many of us have different posts per page settings).

 

[Canadiens1958]

Victory II

Nothing in your post contradicts anything in the post that you culled from the other thread, nor does it answer my points that have been presented in this thread.

By the way, the URL you provided does not work - try linking to the post number instead of the page number (since many of us have different posts per page settings).

Never claimed that there was a contradiction, Just used the post in question to explain why I looked at the situation strictly from the standpoint of wins or victory.

I agree with your points. The issue of comparing between the two goalie era and before is valid as are the other points. Regardless Plante's performance in the context mentioned catches the attention of the reader.

Thank you for the tech tip. The link worked from my end.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Regulation wins by total decisions. That Patrick Roy goes over 50% by such a metric is fine, but it leaves unanswered the question what happened in the games where he was not involved in the decision. Why was he pulled,etc. Plante was there from start to finish - see Nov. 1, 1959.

Because in addition to the games in which his backup relieved him and subsequently let in the GWG or was present for Montreal/Colorado's GWG, 26 times in his career, Patrick Roy came off the bench in relief for another goalie. These questions really aren't unanswered. It isn't unusual for goalies to get pulled these days, just like it isn't unusual for them to play less than the full regular season. It's the era we live in. If you want to share war stories about Montreal goalies' dedication to keep playing, I'm sure Patrick Roy will see Jacques Plante's broken nose and raise him one inflammatory appendix, but it's a different standard of care with coaching now, and it's simply not expected for a modern NHL goaltender to finish every game: Good, bad, and ugly.

Not all backups are created equal. Not all skating lineups are created equal. If you would like, I would be glad to post Chris Osgood's Regulation Win statistics to give you some better context, as he comes out quite well against his contemporaries. That Jacques Plante's Winning Percentage was 7% greater than his backups during the 1956-1960 dynasty is admirable, and no one challenges that he is a difference maker. That his backups' Winning Percentage was greater than that of Brodeur, Roy, and Sawchuk is evidence of significant team influence in Plante's career number, and that was TDMM's point.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Seems that Jacques Plante was a significant difference maker.

That's not the point. The point is that recent goalies have many more split games, ones in which they do not receive decisions. In Plante's prime he got a decision in essentially every game he played, because although goalies wouldn't always play every game, when they did play they'd play 60 minutes.

The fact that Jacques Plante was a better goaler than Gerry McNeil has nothing to do with the bias in the calculation versus recent players.

Start with your basic idea that the object of the game is to win, not tie or lose.

Ties have value, of course. Or at least they did until they ceased to exist. To be precise, in the regular season wins are not what matters, points are. Only in the playoffs were wins the only important thing.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Dale Hunter being second of all time in PIM. The guy wasn't even a great fighter.

Also somehow he also got 1000 points. Never really had a great season either (never had 30 goals or 80 points in the 1980's). Very very strange on both cases.

Of all the playoff series that have gone the distance, very few have gone into overtime of the deciding game.

And only one man ended two such series. And that man is Dale Hunter (1981-82; Quebec vs. Montreal, and 1987-88; Washington vs. Philadelphia).

 

[Baemon Severson*]

So Brodeur is getting punished for being durable, a quality which makes him unique?

 

[Baemon Severson*]

Brodeur will always be difficult to read.

He played some years on teams that were so good defensively playing 78 games was a cake walk. He had a playoff game shutout with 6 saves. He won 2 Vezina trophies when he wasn't in the top 10 in save percentage. His ability to handle the puck was easily the best ever, but he wasn't the best at stopping pucks. How do you weigh that?

Obviously he's considered an all-time great. But his wins, and to a certain extent, shutout records are a little misleading. They are team numbers, more so than usual because of the defesive ability of the Devils throughout Brodeur's career.

I'll say this. Anyone who thinks Brodeur is the best at stopping the puck is fooling themselves. He is elite in that regard, but not the best ever. Brodeur's value to the Devils was way higher than it could have possibly been for any other team. He is the main reason the trap was so effective. He nullified dump ins, and when players did dump it in, he delivers a crisp pass to one of his defenders. There is a reason why people always said, "he's like a third defender." Brodeur has to be one of the most unique goalies of all time, and I wish I hadnt taken his prime for granted

 

[ssh]

So Brodeur is getting punished for being durable, a quality which makes him unique?

How is he being punished for his durability? In that regard he's above everyone else in the era after the expansion. I'm sure no one will question that.
Pointing out facts that put accomplishments into perspective doesn't punish the player, what it is supposed to do is correct the wrong impressions people get from looking at raw results.

For example any goalie good enough to keep a starter's job and who plays enough games, even on poor teams, will inevitably rack up a large number of wins (that for some reason are still attributed to goalies). That's why looking at the raw win totals don't necessarily tell much about a career other than that they've probably played a large number of games.

 

[ssh]

Maybe I should know this, but what is GVT?

GVT or Goals Versus Threshold is a metric developed by Tom Awad (currently writing for Hockey Prospectus) that measures a player's contribution to his team's goal differential. A player's GVT is a sum of his offensive, defensive, shootout and goaltending contributions.

Iain Fyffe and others can probably explain it in further detail.

 

[GuineaPig]

So Brodeur is getting punished for being durable, a quality which makes him unique?

No one is punishing him for being durable.

And he's not unique in the ability to play lots of games. He's just unique in how his team utilizes him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And he's not unique in the ability to play lots of games. He's just unique in how his team utilizes him.

I always found this argument - "NJ is the only team smart enough to figure out that they can give their best goalie most of the starts" - to be bizarre.

I realize that starts given does not perfectly correlate to a goalie's durability (indeed, Brodeur himself looked awfully overworked around the middle of 2009-10), but don't you think that if every team were confident in the ability of their #1 goalie to play 75 games, they would give him that many?

 

[GuineaPig]

I always found this argument - "NJ is the only team smart enough to figure out that they can give their best goalie most of the starts" - to be bizarre.

I realize that starts given does not perfectly correlate to a goalie's durability (indeed, Brodeur himself looked awfully overworked around the middle of 2009-10), but don't you think that if every team were confident in the ability of their #1 goalie to play 75 games, they would give him that many?

That's a good question. I'm still unsure why coaches don't. Cam Ward had his best year statistically last year, even while facing the most shots in the league (a better indication of workload; and he faced 200+ more than anyone else).

Purely from a statistical standpoint, the actual difference in goals allowed in giving a (decent) back-up a couple games is not massive. Even recently (in the last 5 years or so), Brodeur's back-ups have been pretty decent, even replacing him with identical (or for Hedberg, superior) performace when he was out with injuries.

It seems to be more based on perception, than the actual goalie. Kipprusoff pulls in 70+ games nearly every season, even though his performance has degraded massively. Luongo had four straight seasons of 72+ games, ending in 2008-09, when he was injured, and then hasn't been given that workload again. Perhaps it's fear of injuries.

It would be interesting to see what a bunch of coaches think about it.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Game Realities

That's a good question. I'm still unsure why coaches don't. Cam Ward had his best year statistically last year, even while facing the most shots in the league (a better indication of workload; and he faced 200+ more than anyone else).

Purely from a statistical standpoint, the actual difference in goals allowed in giving a (decent) back-up a couple games is not massive. Even recently (in the last 5 years or so), Brodeur's back-ups have been pretty decent, even replacing him with identical (or for Hedberg, superior) performace when he was out with injuries.

It seems to be more based on perception, than the actual goalie. Kipprusoff pulls in 70+ games nearly every season, even though his performance has degraded massively. Luongo had four straight seasons of 72+ games, ending in 2008-09, when he was injured, and then hasn't been given that workload again. Perhaps it's fear of injuries.

It would be interesting to see what a bunch of coaches think about it.

The back-up has to be game ready. One goalie system saw the back-up playing in the minors a phone call away.

Agents put pressure on the team to play their players(back-up goalie) since sitting negatively impacts the future earning power.

 

[quoipourquoi]

So Brodeur is getting punished for being durable, a quality which makes him unique?

He's not being punished. No one in here is repossessing the Vezinas. I don't think it's crazy to talk about how durability - not stopping pucks - may have won a few of those Vezinas though.

Ties have value, of course. Or at least they did until they ceased to exist. To be precise, in the regular season wins are not what matters, points are. Only in the playoffs were wins the only important thing.

I don't have the updated numbers (these are from March 17, 2009), but these are adjusted to pre-1983 standards, so Overtime/Shootout Wins and Losses are just ties:


341-188-146 (.613): Osgood
434-247-146 (.613): Plante
507-283-207 (.612): Roy
470-273-228 (.601): Brodeur
348-205-154 (.601): Hasek
442-289-198 (.582): Belfour
447-330-172 (.562): Sawchuk
403-317-177 (.548): Joseph
169-210-135 (.460): Luongo


Osgood was, at the time, the highest ranked goalie of the nine I measured (as anticipated, which was why both he and Luongo were included). Some of the other goalies close the gap on Plante because while they were less likely to win outright, they were less likely to lose outright.


Losing Percentage

(.409): Luongo
(.353): Joseph
(.348): Sawchuk
(.311): Belfour
(.299): Plante
(.290): Hasek
(.284): Roy
(.281): Brodeur
(.279): Osgood

don't you think that if every team were confident in the ability of their #1 goalie to play 75 games, they would give him that many?

I don't think it's a lack of confidence for all coaches. As noted earlier in this thread, coaches have no hesitation to start their goalies in every playoff game - and if they're chasing the playoffs, every must-win game heading into the playoffs.

For some teams, it's an issue of wanting to get their backup goalie some NHL experience. Looking at Dallas' system during the Belfour era, despite having a starter who had twice led the league in Games Played, they wanted to ease their future goaltenders into the league. Dallas had Roman Turek, Manny Fernandez, and Marty Turco backing up Ed Belfour during Belfour's Stars tenure. Sure enough, all three became NHL starters themselves.

New Jersey didn't need to do that during Brodeur's prime, because Brodeur was a lifer. They didn't have to plan for their future, because Brodeur was their future. But if you're sitting on all of that potential like Dallas was, you don't waste it, because it's an asset.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He's not being punished. No one in here is repossessing the Vezinas. I don't think it's crazy to talk about how durability - not stopping pucks - may have won a few of those Vezinas though.





I don't think it's a lack of confidence for all coaches. As noted earlier in this thread, coaches have no hesitation to start their goalies in every playoff game - and if they're chasing the playoffs, every must-win game heading into the playoffs.
For some teams, it's an issue of wanting to get their backup goalie some NHL experience. Looking at Dallas' system during the Belfour era, despite having a starter who had twice led the league in Games Played, they wanted to ease their future goaltenders into the league. Dallas had Roman Turek, Manny Fernandez, and Marty Turco backing up Ed Belfour during Belfour's Stars tenure. Sure enough, all three became NHL starters themselves.

New Jersey didn't need to do that during Brodeur's prime, because Brodeur was a lifer. They didn't have to plan for their future, because Brodeur was their future. But if you're sitting on all of that potential like Dallas was, you don't waste it, because it's an asset.

Last year all I heard was how Tim Thomas was playing too much for Boston and at his age he would never be able to play his style and stay sharp for any significant playoff run.

So much for the expert opinions.

One should also note that in Brodeur's case, there were many nights where the Devil's trainer probably worked up a better sweat than Marty had to. That has to help out over the course of an 82 game season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Last year all I heard was how Tim Thomas was playing too much for Boston and at his age he would never be able to play his style and stay sharp for any significant playoff run.

So much for the expert opinions.

None of those so-called experts was in the Boston locker-room though, so they really had no idea how Thomas was feeling.

One should also note that in Brodeur's case, there were many nights where the Devil's trainer probably worked up a better sweat than Marty had to. That has to help out over the course of an 82 game season.

It's true that he had an easier job per game before the lockout than just about any other goalie, but after the lockout, he continued to play a ton of games without having nearly so easy a time.

First 3 seasons after the lockout, Brodeur finished 2nd, 1st, 2nd in total saves (and 2nd, 2nd, 4th in total shots faced).

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

None of those so-called experts was in the Boston locker-room though, so they really had no idea how Thomas was feeling.

It's true that he had an easier job per game before the lockout than just about any other goalie, but after the lockout, he continued to play a ton of games without having nearly so easy a time.

First 3 seasons after the lockout, Brodeur finished 2nd, 1st, 2nd in total saves (and 2nd, 2nd, 4th in total shots faced).

Good point.

Good point.

 

[GuineaPig]

Last year all I heard was how Tim Thomas was playing too much for Boston and at his age he would never be able to play his style and stay sharp for any significant playoff run.

So much for the expert opinions.

The only time I can remember where the clear starter was rested during the playoffs was Hasek during the Sabres '98-99 run. I think Hasek had injured his groin during the later part of the season, so when the Sabres went up by a lot in a series they gave Roloson a couple games.

Does anybody else know of any other examples? Coaches almost always try to stick with one goalie in the playoffs. Seems to discount the notion of fatigue.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Of all the playoff series that have gone the distance, very few have gone into overtime of the deciding game.

And only one man ended two such series. And that man is Dale Hunter (1981-82; Quebec vs. Montreal, and 1987-88; Washington vs. Philadelphia).

Marty Gelinas has scored 3 game 7 ot goals if I'm not mistaken.

 

[MadLuke]

Two games in two nights in playoff or very rare. A lot of starters workhorse got their break in those 2 games in 2 nights, or 3 games in 5 nights scenario.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Marty Gelinas has scored 3 game 7 ot goals if I'm not mistaken.

Gelinas has three series-ending OT goals, but only one was in a Game 7. The other two (Detroit/Calgary and Carolina/Toronto) were in Game 6.

Since 1940, here is the list of "going beyond the distance" overtimes.

2012-13 - first round - Boston 4, Toronto 3 - Patrice Bergeron
2011-12 - first round - Washington 4, Boston 3 - Joel Ward
2010-11 - first round - Boston 4, Montreal 3 - Nathan Horton
2008-09 - second round - Carolina 4, Boston 3 - Scott Walker
2007-08 - first round - Philadelphia 4, Washington 3 - Joffrey Lupul
2003-04 - first round - Calgary 4, Vancouver 3 - Martin Gelinas
2002-03 - first round - Minnesota 4, Colorado 3 - Andrew Brunette
2000-01 - second round - Pittsburgh 4, Buffalo 3 - Darius Kasparaitis (D)
1998-99 - first round - St. Louis 4, Phoenix 3 - Pierre Turgeon
1996-97 - first round - Edmonton 4, Dallas 3 - Todd Marchant
1996-97 - first round - Buffalo 4, Ottawa 3 - Derek Plante
1995-96 - second round - Detroit 4, St. Louis 3 - Steve Yzerman
1994-95 - first round - San Jose 4, Calgary 3 - Ray Whitney
1993-94 - first round - Vancouver 4, Calgary 3 - Pavel Bure
1993-94 - third round - NY Rangers 4, New Jersey 3 - Stephane Matteau
1992-93 - first round - Toronto 4, Detroit 3 - Nikolai Borschevsky
1992-93 - second round - NY Islanders 4, Pittsburgh 3 - David Volek
1991-92 - first round - Montreal 4, Hartford 3 - Russ Courtnall (2OT)
1990-91 - first round - Edmonton 4, Calgary 3 - Esa Tikkanen
1988-89 - first round - Calgary 4, Vancouver 3 - Joel Otto
1987-88 - first round - Washington 4, Philadelphia 3 - Dale Hunter
1986-87 - first round - NY Islanders 4, Washington 3 - Pat Lafontaine (4OT)
1985-86 - second round - Montreal 4, Hartford 3 - Claude Lemieux
1984-85 - second round - Quebec 4, Montreal 3 - Peter Stastny
1983-84 - second round - Minnesota 4, St. Louis 3 - Steve Payne
1984-84 - first round - NY Islanders 3, NY Rangers 2 - Ken Morrow (D)
1982-83 - second round - Boston 4, Buffalo 3 - Brad Park (D)
1981-82 - first round - NY Islanders 3, Pittsburgh 2 - John Tonelli
1981-82 - first round - Quebec 3, Montreal 2 - Dale Hunter
1980-81 - first round - St. Louis 3, Pittsburgh 2 - Mike Crombeen (2OT)
1978-79 - third round - Montreal 4, Boston 3 - Yvon Lambert
1978-79 - prelim round - Pittsburgh 2, Buffalo 1 - George Ferguson
1977-78 - second round - Toronto 4, NY Islanders 3 - Lanny McDonald
1975-76 - prelim round - Buffalo 2, St. Louis 1 - Don Luce
1974-75 - prelim round - NY Islanders 2, NY Rangers 1 - J.P. Parise
1971-72 - quarterfinals - St. Louis 4, Minnesota 3 - Kevin O'Shea
1967-68 - semifinals - St. Louis 4, Minnesota 3 - Gerry Melnyk (2OT)
1953-54 - Cup Final - Detroit 4, Montreal 3 - Tony Leswick
1949-50 - Cup Final - Detroit 4, NY Rangers 3 - Pete Babando (2OT)
1949-50 - semifinals - Detroit 4, Toronto 3 - Leo Reise

I didn't go before 1940 because the playoff system was too...weird.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The only time I can remember where the clear starter was rested during the playoffs was Hasek during the Sabres '98-99 run. I think Hasek had injured his groin during the later part of the season, so when the Sabres went up by a lot in a series they gave Roloson a couple games.

Does anybody else know of any other examples? Coaches almost always try to stick with one goalie in the playoffs. Seems to discount the notion of fatigue.

Hasek actually missed the first two games in the Maple Leafs series.


The only one that comes to mind is Montreal in 1989. They had been platooning Roy and Hayward in 1987, 1988, and 1989 (in the playoffs, it was typically play until you lose big), but in 1989, they started Hayward twice during the first two rounds even though Roy hadn't dropped a game.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Gelinas has three series-ending OT goals, but only one was in a Game 7. The other two (Detroit/Calgary and Carolina/Toronto) were in Game 6.

Since 1940, here is the list of "going beyond the distance" overtimes.

2012-13 - first round - Boston 4, Toronto 3 - Patrice Bergeron
2011-12 - first round - Washington 4, Boston 3 - Joel Ward

Does anyone mind if I bump this thread to reflect this update? There are now 40 series that have gone into OT of the last possible game, and Dale Hunter is still the only guy to score two such OT goals.

Oddly enough, there has been such a series in four of the last five years, and all four have involved Boston.

 

[blogofmike]

Does anyone mind if I bump this thread to reflect this update? There are now 40 series that have gone into OT of the last possible game, and Dale Hunter is still the only guy to score two such OT goals.

Oddly enough, there has been such a series in four of the last five years, and all four have involved Boston.

I guess Boston is the team to watch in the First Round.

Also sympathize for Flames fans. 1991, 1994, 1995. Ouch.

 

[bruins309]

Does anyone mind if I bump this thread to reflect this update? There are now 40 series that have gone into OT of the last possible game, and Dale Hunter is still the only guy to score two such OT goals.

Oddly enough, there has been such a series in four of the last five years, and all four have involved Boston.

Not only that, but all four of them have been in Boston. Seeing that list really blew my mind since I've attended those four Boston games.

Since one of Dale Hunter's goals was in game 5 for Quebec in a best of five, I guess we're still waiting for the first two-time game 7 OT scorer. Lupul or Horton could have done it last night.

p.s. Bee, the score last night was 5-4; it's on there as 4-3.