Montreal worst NHL city to play in?

Dominator13

Registered User
Feb 20, 2003
19,484
1,057
hockey city
Dominator13
I don't think the author has all the facts. Canadian resident players get taxed at the canadian/provincial rates only for games played in Canada, which is significant for Canadian team members but nevertheless 3/4 of the league is US based.

Huh? I'm not sure that's how it works.

Usually by Canadian tax laws, 1) where you live 6 months + 1 day is where you get taxed. That's why there's a lot of high class workers that live on tax free islands and countries and come back to Québec to sign contracts, then leave again.

2) Business trips are a part of any worker's mandatory duties, you don't pay taxes from every place you get sent off too.
 

Barriwhite

Don’t be shocked by the tone of my voice
Nov 8, 2005
1,952
343
Montreal
It appears you are interpreting this as meaning if you stay 183 days a year in the US you don't pay Canadian taxes, which is absolutely incorrect. All income earned in Canada is taxed in Canada. The Article cited deals with artists and athletes which are paid from tournament earnings etc. , 3(a) simply states that team athletes are employees and not subject to this article.

Read it again; it is absolutely correct.

XVI-1 says an artist/athlete resident of a contracting state (US or CAN) (183 days a year) can be taxed in the other contracting state.

XVI-3 (a) says XVI-1 does not apply to athletes in respect of their activities as an employee of a team which participates in a league with regularly scheduled games in both Contracting States

Now interpret these using the case of a player of any nationality, having a place of residence in the US for 183 days a year, and playing for Montreal.

They spend a good chunk of the season on the road in the US, stay there during the holidays, etc. which makes it easy for any player having a house in the US in a tax-friendly state to mitigate the taxation disadvantage of playing in Montreal.
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
Los Angeles has become a **** hole city in America. California has onerous taxation (ask PGA Phil Mickelson about this) and the highest cost of living in the US.

Not going to get political. It is what it is. The Kings are loaded with talent and once again will be contending for another Cup.

Winning hockey games and championships and ensuring you have the personnel to do that is all on management and the coaching staff. Blaming a country, a province, a state, a city or governmental policy is a lame excuse.
 

Agnostic

11 Stanley Cups
Jun 24, 2007
8,409
2
Huh? I'm not sure that's how it works.

Usually by Canadian tax laws, 1) where you live 6 months + 1 day is where you get taxed. That's why there's a lot of high class workers that live on tax free islands and countries and come back to Québec to sign contracts, then leave again.

2) Business trips are a part of any worker's mandatory duties, you don't pay taxes from every place you get sent off too.

Read it again; it is absolutely correct.

XVI-1 says an artist/athlete resident of a contracting state (US or CAN) (183 days a year) can be taxed in the other contracting state.

XVI-3 (a) says XVI-1 does not apply to athletes in respect of their activities as an employee of a team which participates in a league with regularly scheduled games in both Contracting States

Now interpret these using the case of a player of any nationality, having a place of residence in the US for 183 days a year, and playing for Montreal.

They spend a good chunk of the season on the road in the US, stay there during the holidays, etc. which makes it easy for any player having a house in the US in a tax-friendly state to mitigate the taxation disadvantage of playing in Montreal.

I think it works like this in Canada:

Non resident players playing for US teams and who reside in the US (live > 183days) pay taxes in the US and do not pay Canadian taxes. (Patrick Kane)

Non resident players playing for Canadian teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country. (Max Pacioretty)

Canadian residents playing for Canadian teams pay Canadian taxes. (Pk Subban)

Canadian resident players playing for US teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country. (????? Who would do this?)
 

Barriwhite

Don’t be shocked by the tone of my voice
Nov 8, 2005
1,952
343
Montreal
I think it works like this in Canada:

Non resident players playing for US teams and who reside in the US (live > 183days) pay taxes in the US and do not pay Canadian taxes.

Non resident players playing for Canadian teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country.

Canadian residents playing for Canadian teams pay Canadian taxes.

Canadian resident players playing for US teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country.

Pro-rata is how this specific situation used to work, but the cited treaty introduces full taxation in the country of residence regardless of the proportion of games played in the country, but only for the specified exceptions, including professional athletes working in a league playing regularly in both countries.
 

WhiskeySeven*

Expect the expected
Jun 17, 2007
25,154
770
Canadian resident players playing for US teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country. (????? Who would do this?)
I don't think that's how it works.

When I and other family and friends worked abroad, we had to pay Canadian taxes + the taxes of the nation we lived in (though, luckily, I was working in a tax-free nation) unless we could prove we weren't residents of Canada (and it's not like a 1 year thing, you had to prove you did not intend on returning for at least the duration of your contract). I'm sure it's similar for athletes.

The Canadian tax-man isn't easy to fool, but we shouldn't be blaming high taxes and instead blaming government waste and political corruption. The amount of taxes we pay should be ushering in a utopia :laugh:
 
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Agnostic

11 Stanley Cups
Jun 24, 2007
8,409
2
Pro-rata is how this specific situation used to work, but the cited treaty introduces full taxation in the country of residence regardless of the proportion of games played in the country, but only for the specified exceptions, including professional athletes working in a league playing regularly in both countries.

How recent is this development, because everything I have ever read on the subject talks about "duty days" or some such term to denote that taxation is split and occurs in both countries.
 

Dominator13

Registered User
Feb 20, 2003
19,484
1,057
hockey city
Dominator13
I think it works like this in Canada:

Non resident players playing for US teams and who reside in the US (live > 183days) pay taxes in the US and do not pay Canadian taxes. (Patrick Kane)

Non resident players playing for Canadian teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country. (Max Pacioretty)

Canadian residents playing for Canadian teams pay Canadian taxes. (Pk Subban)

Canadian resident players playing for US teams pay taxes in the USA and Canada based on the percentage of games played in each country. (????? Who would do this?)

There's not a chance in hell this is true. I had a job in NC 6 years ago, I could collect the taxes I payed but I had to repay them as if I was residing in Canada. Either you're a Canadian resident, or you're not.
 

WhiskeySeven*

Expect the expected
Jun 17, 2007
25,154
770
There's not a chance in hell this is true. I had a job in NC 6 years ago, I could collect the taxes I payed but I had to repay them as if I was residing in Canada. Either you're a Canadian resident, or you're not.

And if you're not a Canadian resident, you have to god damn prove it!
 

Agnostic

11 Stanley Cups
Jun 24, 2007
8,409
2
There's not a chance in hell this is true. I had a job in NC 6 years ago, I could collect the taxes I payed but I had to repay them as if I was residing in Canada. Either you're a Canadian resident, or you're not.

Canadians are taxes on their worldwide income, the point you highlighted deals with an American player working in Canada. Or am I missing your point?
 

Agnostic

11 Stanley Cups
Jun 24, 2007
8,409
2
I don't think that's how it works.

When I and other family and friends worked abroad, we had to pay Canadian taxes + the taxes of the nation we lived in (though, luckily, I was working in a tax-free nation) unless we could prove we weren't residents of Canada (and it's not like a 1 year thing, you had to prove you did not intend on returning for at least the duration of your contract). I'm sure it's similar for athletes.

The Canadian tax-man isn't easy to fool, but we shouldn't be blaming high taxes and instead blaming government waste and political corruption. The amount of taxes we pay should be ushering in a utopia :laugh:

Well, like Jackiechan said, maybe the pro-rata part of the treaty was changed.
 

psychonaut

Registered User
Sep 4, 2003
1,443
132
Come on this is a joke.
In Ontario that tax rate is over $220,000 49.53%
While is the massively over tax province of Quebec its over $136,270 49.97%
Now the biggest difference is the lower levels.
first $41,495 28.53% Quebec
first $40,120 20.05% Ontario
 

Shadow Journal

Non, je ne regrette rien
Jun 20, 2003
7,643
34
It's called Socialism, you are paying for corruption and for people to not work. You are paying for students to protest on the street, you are paying for people to work seasonally but collect unemployment. I'm shocked that people are bringing this up, I thought everyone already knew this.

Haha.
 

quidam1981

Registered User
Oct 31, 2008
50
6
Usually by Canadian tax laws, 1) where you live 6 months + 1 day is where you get taxed. That's why there's a lot of high class workers that live on tax free islands and countries and come back to Québec to sign contracts, then leave again.

I worked at the International Tax Services Office of CRA for several years. I know how residency works (for tax purposes) and how to read tax treaties.

Residency: it has really NOTHING to to with the 6-month rule. Basically, you are a resident of the country where you have the most significant "residential ties" : where you live, where you work, where your bank accounts are, your driver's license, health insurance, etc. It's all based on individual facts, but it is safe to say that most Habs players are resident of Canada for tax purposes, with some exceptions. Let's say a player is only renting a place here, and his wife and kids stay in the U.S., he could easily argue that he is a resident of the U.S. Nothing to do with a specific number of days.

Tax treaty: you have to replace "contracting state" and "other contracting state" with actual names of countries for it to make any sense.

So, XVI(1) says that ", income derived by a resident of a Contracting State (Canada) as an entertainer, such as a theatre, motion picture, radio or television artiste, or a musician, or as an athlete, from his personal activities as such exercised in the other Contracting State (U.S.), may be taxed in that other State (U.S), except where the amount of the gross receipts derived by such entertainer or athlete, including expenses reimbursed to him or borne on his behalf, from such activities do not exceed fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000) in the currency of that other State for the calendar year concerned."

What it means is that income from a Canadian resident earned in the U.S. for these specific activities can be taxed in the U.S, but only if it exceeds $15,000. If it's under $15,000, U.S. can't tax it. In all cases, it does not prevent Canada from taxing it; if it is over $15,000, U.S. will tax it, and Canada will also tax it, but will give a credit for the tax paid in the U.S. Said differently, you don't get taxed twice, but you have to pay to the difference between US and Canada taxes to Canada.

However, XVI(3) says that XVI(1) does not apply to "an athlete in respect of his activities as an employee of a team which participates in a league with regularly scheduled games in both Contracting States". So it XVI(1) does not apply to hockey players.

You are then left with the regular article on employment income, which is article XV. Article XV basically says that income from a resident of Canada earned in the US is taxable in the US, unless it is under $10,000.

Note that it doesn't say "taxable only in the other Contracting State". So the wording does not prevent Canada to tax it; we simply have to give credit for the taxes paid in the US.

Bottom line:

Canadian residents pay tax on every penny earned, but get credits for taxes paid to the US for games played on the US soil.
Residents of another country only pay taxes on games played in Canada.
 

quidam1981

Registered User
Oct 31, 2008
50
6
So does that mean that Paccioretty got double-****ed ?

No, you don't get "double-taxed": if the treaty allows the other country to tax you, you'll get a credit for that tax on your "resident country" tax return.

So, let's say Pacioretty is a US resident for tax purposes. He pays taxes to Canada on all games played on Canadian soil. Let's say that's around 65% of the games (estimate, for the purposes of calculation), so he makes roughly 2.9 million in Canada. He pays around 1.45 million in taxes to Canada (assuming a 50% rate; it is slightly lower than that, because of the first tax brackets).

He still has to report his full income to the US, as a US resident. Let's say (for illustration purposes) that the tax rate where he resides is 35%. His overall tax bill in the US is around 1.575 millions. However, he was taxed in Canada on 65% of that, roughly 1 million. So, he will get a credit of 1 million dollar of taxes for the part of his income that was subject to tax in Canada.

He'll end up having paid:
1.5 million to Canada
0.575 million to US
Total 2.075 million, for a combined taxation rate of 46%.


If he was a resident of Canada, it would be the other way around.

His tax bill in the US would be 0.575 million. His tax bill in Canada would be 2.25 million. The part of that tax related to income earned in the US would be close to 0.8 million. So that would be reduced by the 0.575 million paid to the US.

He would end up paying:
1.675 million to Canada (2.25-0.575)
0.575 million to US
For total of 2.25 million.


Bottom line: if the tax where you work are higher than the taxes where you reside, it reduces your taxes where you reside to 0; if the taxes where you work are lower than where you reside, you end up having to pay the difference to your country of residence.

(Not sure if everyone is interested in that stuff, but whatever..!)
 

Chacal667

Registered User
Jul 14, 2012
2,482
6
Montreal
No, you don't get "double-taxed": if the treaty allows the other country to tax you, you'll get a credit for that tax on your "resident country" tax return.

So, let's say Pacioretty is a US resident for tax purposes. He pays taxes to Canada on all games played on Canadian soil. Let's say that's around 65% of the games (estimate, for the purposes of calculation), so he makes roughly 2.9 million in Canada. He pays around 1.45 million in taxes to Canada (assuming a 50% rate; it is slightly lower than that, because of the first tax brackets).

He still has to report his full income to the US, as a US resident. Let's say (for illustration purposes) that the tax rate where he resides is 35%. His overall tax bill in the US is around 1.575 millions. However, he was taxed in Canada on 65% of that, roughly 1 million. So, he will get a credit of 1 million dollar of taxes for the part of his income that was subject to tax in Canada.

He'll end up having paid:
1.5 million to Canada
0.575 million to US
Total 2.075 million, for a combined taxation rate of 46%.


If he was a resident of Canada, it would be the other way around.

His tax bill in the US would be 0.575 million. His tax bill in Canada would be 2.25 million. The part of that tax related to income earned in the US would be close to 0.8 million. So that would be reduced by the 0.575 million paid to the US.

He would end up paying:
1.675 million to Canada (2.25-0.575)
0.575 million to US
For total of 2.25 million.


Bottom line: if the tax where you work are higher than the taxes where you reside, it reduces your taxes where you reside to 0; if the taxes where you work are lower than where you reside, you end up having to pay the difference to your country of residence.

(Not sure if everyone is interested in that stuff, but whatever..!)

I meant double-****ed because of he's contract, he should make more money if we compare him to the other similar players in the league
 

Dominator13

Registered User
Feb 20, 2003
19,484
1,057
hockey city
Dominator13
I worked at the International Tax Services Office of CRA for several years. I know how residency works (for tax purposes) and how to read tax treaties.

Residency: it has really NOTHING to to with the 6-month rule. Basically, you are a resident of the country where you have the most significant "residential ties" : where you live, where you work, where your bank accounts are, your driver's license, health insurance, etc. It's all based on individual facts, but it is safe to say that most Habs players are resident of Canada for tax purposes, with some exceptions. Let's say a player is only renting a place here, and his wife and kids stay in the U.S., he could easily argue that he is a resident of the U.S. Nothing to do with a specific number of days.

Tax treaty: you have to replace "contracting state" and "other contracting state" with actual names of countries for it to make any sense.

So, XVI(1) says that ", income derived by a resident of a Contracting State (Canada) as an entertainer, such as a theatre, motion picture, radio or television artiste, or a musician, or as an athlete, from his personal activities as such exercised in the other Contracting State (U.S.), may be taxed in that other State (U.S), except where the amount of the gross receipts derived by such entertainer or athlete, including expenses reimbursed to him or borne on his behalf, from such activities do not exceed fifteen thousand dollars ($15,000) in the currency of that other State for the calendar year concerned."

What it means is that income from a Canadian resident earned in the U.S. for these specific activities can be taxed in the U.S, but only if it exceeds $15,000. If it's under $15,000, U.S. can't tax it. In all cases, it does not prevent Canada from taxing it; if it is over $15,000, U.S. will tax it, and Canada will also tax it, but will give a credit for the tax paid in the U.S. Said differently, you don't get taxed twice, but you have to pay to the difference between US and Canada taxes to Canada.

However, XVI(3) says that XVI(1) does not apply to "an athlete in respect of his activities as an employee of a team which participates in a league with regularly scheduled games in both Contracting States". So it XVI(1) does not apply to hockey players.

You are then left with the regular article on employment income, which is article XV. Article XV basically says that income from a resident of Canada earned in the US is taxable in the US, unless it is under $10,000.

Note that it doesn't say "taxable only in the other Contracting State". So the wording does not prevent Canada to tax it; we simply have to give credit for the taxes paid in the US.

Bottom line:

Canadian residents pay tax on every penny earned, but get credits for taxes paid to the US for games played on the US soil.
Residents of another country only pay taxes on games played in Canada.

The part mentioned is proof the CRA wants to determine where a resident lives and participates the most in society. But with the 2 classes on taxes that I had doing my major in Finances, I know the 6 month rule is true, it's the 15000$ exception that I wasn't aware of, so you pretty much answered the original question.
 

Price My Man Crush

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
4,828
0
Montréal
Want to live in one of the safest, cleanest, most cultural cities in the world? A city that loves hockey and loves life?

Pay up.

You anti-taxers forget that.

Edit: I've lived in a tax-less city, it sucked. I've also been living in NYC, not as high taxes but expensive as hell, also has many flaws.

Montreal is a special, special city.

J'taime man. You said everything.

/thread
 

quidam1981

Registered User
Oct 31, 2008
50
6
But with the 2 classes on taxes that I had doing my major in Finances, I know the 6 month rule is true

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/cmmn/rsdncy-eng.html

I was actually processing request of people wanting to determine their residency status, and I can confirm you that the CRA does not consider that 6-month rule at all.

It only applies for people coming in the country without establishing residential ties (what they call "sojourners"); somebody that spends more than 6 months here in a year without establishing ties will be deemed to be a resident.

But you can spend less than 6 months a year in Canada and still be considered a resident of Canada for tax purposes, as long as your life is mostly organized here. It's a common misconception, and I'm surprised that it would be disseminated in Finance courses, but I'm positive: whether you spend more or less than 183 days a year in Canada is not the issue; where your residential ties are is the determining factor. For a good idea of what these ties can be, take a look at the form for asking CRA to determine your status when you leave the country: http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pbg/tf/nr73/README.html.

(OK, sorry for the long-winded explanations, guys)
 

Barriwhite

Don’t be shocked by the tone of my voice
Nov 8, 2005
1,952
343
Montreal
Well, like Jackiechan said, maybe the pro-rata part of the treaty was changed.

It has indeed changed, but only for residents of the US or CAN who fit certain criteria, such as professional athletes working in leagues that play regularly in both countries (such as the NHL), as I quoted from the treaty.

Which is why comments like "hey, I took this class and I've been told that (...)" or "I lived in the US and here's how taxation works" can be misleading; we're talking about an exception here, and not about how the average canadian working in the US is being taxed, or vice versa.
 

habfaninvictoria

Registered User
Nov 1, 2007
2,082
0
Victoria BC
OK... the taxes are high, so what.

-Properties cost less.
-Most services are free or lower user fee
-If your child breaks his leg it doesn't cost his arm to pay for it
-Less crime
-rockstar vs plumber
-if you're only in it for the paycheck we don't want you anyway...
-I wonder how much fun BobbyLou is having playing for 4 adults, 8 kids, a dog and a squirrel.
 

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