MLD 2011 Draft Thread I

[seventieslord]

I would love to see newspaper articles comparing Nicholsson to his contemporaries written by people who actually saw them.

Given that scoring levels and competition varied wildly from team to team, league to league, season to season, back then, I don't think comparing career GAAs is all that helpful. If you have time, doing "with and without" GAA study like HO did for Benedict could be helpful.

Sorry, what did HO do for Benedict, again?

Yeah, scoring levels could vary and that's a really inexact science but how much could that really skew things? Moran's career GAA was a whole 31% higher. It's really unlikely that if a detailed study that normalized everything (which would be practically impossible) was done, that it would make up for a gap like that. Nicholson's playoff GAA was also the best of that bunch, despite facing the best competition among them.

I like the quote, "At his best there are few better net guardians in the business." Kind of implies that there were, in fact, better ones, right? Perhaps the three in the HHOF?

pfft... you wouldn't flinch if the exact same thing was written about Benedict... or Vezina, or Gardiner.

 

[chaosrevolver]

I really hope you can do a thorough bio. Info on physical play and defense would be very helpful.

There is a book based off of him but I have to purchase it to read it. Gonna do some digging to see if I can get my hands on it, or at least some quotes from it. Got a brief one up for now but will look for specific characteristics.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sorry, what did HO do for Benedict, again?

He compared the GAA of Benedict's various teams the season before and the season after Benedict changed teams, as the best way to show Benedict's personal contribution to his team's GAA. I think he tried to show that the defensive personnel remained more or less the same, as well, so the different in GAA had to be attributed largely to Benedict.

pfft... you wouldn't flinch if the exact same thing was written about Benedict... or Vezina, or Gardiner.

I haven't researched Benedict in detail, but there are multiple contemporary quotes calling Vezina and Gardiner not just the best, but "the best ever," so I wouldn't need to put much stock into a quote saying "there are now few better than him."

 

[BenchBrawl]

Montreal Bad Habits select Eric Vail LW

 

[seventieslord]

He compared the GAA of Benedict's various teams the season before and the season after Benedict changed teams, as the best way to show Benedict's personal contribution to his team's GAA. I think he tried to show that the defensive personnel remained more or less the same, as well, so the different in GAA had to be attributed largely to Benedict.

Ugh.... what a nightmare. I did a quick glance and while the results look good to start with, they'd have to be compared to the league average to be valid, and that's just not something I can do this week. It also seems Nicholson joined brand new teams a few times (1904 FAHL wanderers, 1905 IHL Calumet, 1912 NHA Tecumsehs) which makes it even harder/impossible to judge those years.

A couple interesting tidbits:

1917 NHA, Nicholson is 39, and one of six goalies to play 10+ games:

Benedict 2.74 (Shore and I think George Boucher on D, plus Nighbor)
Vezina 3.94 (Corbeau, Mummery, Coutu, Laviolette)
Nicholson 4.01 (Harry Cameron and a dude who will never, ever be drafted)
never drafted 5.75
often drafted 6.49
never to be drafted 15.08

another season that is tough to judge: 1913 to 1914.

In 1913 the NHA Wanderers were 4% worse than the league average in goals against without Nicholson. With Nicholson the next year, they were 45% worse than the average. But he only played half the games with a 5.20 GAA. Three other guys combined to play the other 10, and they had the three worst GAAs in the league, averaging 7.30. One of them was a guy who went from 4.60 in 1913, to 8.00. The team's defensemen were Cleghorn and Ross, both years. How does one make sense of that? The team had the same personnel, but got significantly worse at preventing goals. The one major change was Nicholson, but he was seemingly much better than the guy he mostly replaced.

 

[Dreakmur]

Montreal Bad Habits select Eric Vail LW

excellent pick.

he's not the BPA - not even close - but if you want a good power forwad, I think he's the only one out there.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

They are all multiple cup winners; however, he faced probably the stiffest competition in his cup matches, along with Hern, yet, he has the best playoff GAA of the four.

Without doing a detailed analysis at this time, I'd say Nicholson's SC GAA is heavily skewed by the years in which he played for the Cup. Just because they're chronological contemporaries doesn't mean their stats (especially small samples like playoff stats) can be compared directly without adjustment; hockey changed quite a bit over the course of Nicholson's career, and he played for the Cup in the earlier, lower-scoring years while Hern did it later with higher scoring rates. Of the four I'd suspect Moran's SC GAA is the most impressive, since he compiled it in the later years.

Good pick, but I can't see him quite at the same level as Hern.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Benedict 2.74 (Shore and I think George Boucher on D, plus Nighbor)
Vezina 3.94 (Corbeau, Mummery, Coutu, Laviolette)
Nicholson 4.01 (Harry Cameron and a dude who will never, ever be drafted)

Boucher was on defence that year for Ottawa, but you've forgotten Ken Randall for Nicholson. Not to mention Reg Noble. Billy Coutu was a part-time player, and played LW as much as defence that year.

The team's defensemen were Cleghorn and Ross, both years. How does one make sense of that?

The Wanderers played a wide-open game, and Cleghorn is really better relatively on offence than he is on D. That, and sometimes funny things happen over 20 games.

 

[chaosrevolver]

With my second selection, the Belleville Bulls select a fast winger who could put pucks in the net. He consistent and had some jam to boot..

Meet the newest Bull...

RW - Dave Christian

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

excellent pick.

he's not the BPA - not even close - but if you want a good power forwad, I think he's the only one out there.

He has 281 career PIM in 591 career games, playing in an era when all the true power forwards racked up PIMs like nobody's business. Vail is a credible puckwinner at this level I think, but I'd call him a "power forward lite" more than a true PF.

 

[Dreakmur]

He has 281 career PIM in 591 career games, playing in an era when all the true power forwards racked up PIMs like nobody's business.

The guy was pretty much a bulldozer. Just because he doesn't take a lot of PIMs doesn't mean he's not a beast.

If you think he's soft, ask the Russians who watched him use use his stick as a battle axe....

Vail is a credible puckwinner at this level, I think, but I'd call him a "power forward lite" more than a true PF.

And that power forward lite will likely be the best power forward in this draft. He'll be compared to his peers in the MLD, not the ATD.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The guy was pretty much a bulldozer. Just because he doesn't take a lot of PIMs doesn't mean he's not a beast.

If you think he's soft, ask the Russians who watched him use use his stick as a battle axe....



And that power forward lite will likely be the best power forward in this draft. He'll be compared to his peers in the MLD, not the ATD.

Straw man arguments like the bolded really degrade the quality of the discussion here.

 

[chaosrevolver]

The guy was pretty much a bulldozer. Just because he doesn't take a lot of PIMs doesn't mean he's not a beast.

If you think he's soft, ask the Russians who watched him use use his stick as a battle axe....

So stick work makes you tough? To me, it makes you a gutless puke.

Now I am not saying he isn't tough or a bulldozer or whatever you want to call him. However, using stick work as an example is poor as far as I am concerned.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

I'll take D Phat Wilson

Hockey Hall of Fame Member
3x Thunder Bay Senior Hockey League Scoring Champion
3x Allan Cup Champion
4x Allan Cup Finalist
18G, 12A in 50 career MHL Senior League Games
19G, 15A in 37 career MTBHL Games
72G, 35A in 142 career TBSHL Games

Starting in 1919, skipping 1922 (stats unavailable), and ending in 1932, by my count he finished in overall scoring:

7, 10, 8, 24, 17, 18, 8, 8, 14, 3, 3, 1, 10

He finished first among defencemen in scoring at least nine times. Possibly another two seasons depending on what position <undrafted players> were playing that year.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=946859&page=22

Regarded as one of the top amateur players of his time, Wilson was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1962.

Wilson moved to Iroquois Falls, Ontario for a season to play in the Northern Ontario Hockey Association (NOHA) in 1921–22 before returning to Port Arthur a year later to play for the Port Arthur Bearcats. He was a top player in the NOHA, leading Port Arthur to an Allan Cup championship in 1925 as Canada's national senior champions. Wilson and the Bearcats repeated as champions the following year and won a third Allan Cup in 1929. Professional teams took note of his play; teams from Calgary, Edmonton and Toronto all offered him but he declined, preferring to remain in his hometown.

He was an outstanding offensive defenceman who won several scoring titles during his career. He retired as a player in 1932 at the age of 37 and took on the dual role of coach and manager of the Bearcats. In recognition of his career in Port Arthur, Wilson was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1962 and the Northwestern Ontario Sports Hall of Fame in its inaugural class of 1982.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phat_Wilson

A perennial image on the sports scene of Thunder Bay (Port Arthur) for over 40 years, Gordon 'Phat' Wilson enjoyed an exceptional amateur hockey career in the early days of this region’s illustrious hockey history.

Born in Port Arthur in 1895, Wilson got his first taste of hockey in the local church leagues. Not even knowing how to skate when he tried out for St. Andrew's in 1914, he mastered not only the blades, but the stick as well, moving on to the senior ranks in 1918.

Joining the lineup of the Iroquois Falls team in the N.O.H.A. League for the 1921-22 season, he competed in what would be the first of many Allan Cup play downs. Returning home to the Port Arthur Seniors the next season, he went on to become a major force in the success of his hometown in Allan Cup play. His hard work and dedication saw the Port Arthur Seniors capture the region’s first Allan Cup title in 1924-25, an accomplishment repeated in 1926 and again in 1929.

A brilliant defenseman remembered for his rink-long rushes, he won several scoring titles throughout his career, including the Thunder Bay Senior Hockey scoring title in his last three years as an active player. Not surprisingly, he was offered many professional contracts, however, he turned them all down, remaining instead in his hometown. Given the fact that he was 30 years of age when he captained the Seniors to their first Allan Cup title in 1926, his accomplishments on the ice were that much more impressive. Retiring from active competition in 1933 at the age of 37 years as a playing coach, he moved behind the bench to coach Port Arthur again in 1938 and 1940.

As well as being an outstanding hockey player, this exceptional athlete was also a stand-out baseball player and he contributed his talents to the building side of that sport. In 1952 when Little League baseball began in northwestern Ontario, he served as the first President of the Port Arthur National League going on to become the first Little League District Commissioner for the area.

Not surprisingly, Gordon 'Phat' Wilson's incredible athletic abilities did not go unnoticed on the national scene. In 1962, he was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, becoming one of very few amateur players ever to be so honoured.

http://www.nwosportshalloffame.com/inductees/inductee.aspx?id=152

There are few men who have done more for hockey in their native communities than has Gordon Allan "Phat" Wilson. A product of the Lakehead, Wilson joined the local church league hockey team at St. Andrew's in 1914 before he learned to skate. He spent his first year as a sub but came back the next year with much improved skating abilities and took his position on defence. Wilson spent the following two seasons playing in the local junior hockey circuit before joining the War Veterans Senior Hockey Club in 1918.

With two seasons of senior hockey under his belt, he tried his luck in the NOHA with Iroquois Falls in 1921-22. The team made it to the Allan Cup playdowns, eventually losing to the Toronto Granites. Wilson returned home and stayed with amateur hockey, eventually guiding Port Arthur to the Allan Cup in 1925, 1926, and 1929. His play did not go unnoticed by the pros and he was offered contracts with Edmonton, Calgary, and Toronto but turned them all down.

He was noted as an all-time great amateur player whose long rushes down ice contributed to his winning the senior scoring title as a defenceman. Although he retired from active play in 1933 at the age of 37, he stayed very active in the hockey and sports scene in Port Arthur.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Lege...dsMember.jsp?mem=p196227&page=bio&list=#photo

Two youngsters and a pair of veterans were the standouts as the Lakehead men erased the two goal lead set up by the Westerners and then set up a margin of their own. "Phat" Wilson, who has played in 3 Allan Cup teams, and xxx were the old timers who shone in the hard won victory.

By counting the goal that tied up the round in the opening period, Wilson displayed the game's prettiest individual tally. In the powerful lone rush style that has placed him - at 35 years of age - among the most feared defensemen in amateur hockey, he sifted through the Trail team and back-handed the puck over xxx's shoulder.

Less than a minute after the second session opened the Canadian champions were ahead on the round and again it was Wilson who engineered the play. Down into the corner sped "Phat" and he lashed the puck backward to xxx, going fast down the right wing. The little Finn caught the net corner with a fast snap shot.

xxx had turned aside ten dead on shots, two were from Wilson after sallies that carried him into the goalmouth.

xxx, veteran defenseman, who starred with "Phat" Wilson on the attack throughout the game...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=1530,2938476&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

Heavy framed Phat Wilson, veteran of 3 Dominion title teams, last night led a new crop of Portmen to a 2 to 1 victory over Winnipeg. To rangy Charlie Sands and xxx went the lakehead team's goals, but it was the confidence old "Phat" inspired in his young proteges that really won.

Led by the inimitable Gordon Wilson, the Port Arthur team are a smooth, fast skating machine... xxx in goal is sound, while xxx and Wilson form a stalwart rearguard. The former has developed alongside Wilson.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=6579,1950271&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

xxx and Phat Wilson were the mainstays of the Port Arthur squad...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=6782,5157063&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

"Phat" Wilson, stalwart defenseman, just started on his 3rd decade.

On but rare occasions during the entire third game were the Frenchmen able to pierce through the danger zone in front of Baker. They took check after check from xxx and "Phat" Wilson on the rearguard.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=1571,3258701&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

Just a few hours too late, the Canadian Olympic Committee heard today Gordon (Phat) Wilson, star defence player, would have been available to join the Winnipegs had he know they were being strengthened. Winnipegs are Canada's Olympic hockey team.

"Wilson would have been a strong addition to the team," said Mr. Hewitt. "and we would have given him serious consideration. The Manitoba Hockey Association, which had the choice, would probably have thought it over very seriously too, for Phat is a great player."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=6941,3000144&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

xxx was given better protection by the xxx-Wilson defense, than xxx received from his outer guard.

...and the veteran "Phat" Wilson stickhandled through the Trail defense to hang up another.

Port Arthur's brilliant front trio, xxx, xxx, and xxx dominated the play throughout, assisted in their offensive efforts by Wilson, whose rushing was one of the game's features.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=6818,2460473&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

It is no secret that every member of the Port Arthur regular team has received fine offers to play elsewhere next season. Practically every team in the east is bidding for their services... xxx can take a Toronto St. Pat or a New York uniform any time he desires. And so can "Phat" Wilson. The pair of defensive stalwarts are sought singly and as a pair by most of the eastern pro teams.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=1771,4600777&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

All scored on team plays, the Lakemen's goals were a trio of mechanically exact achievements. Only the forwards figured in the 3 tallies, indicating the rear guard duo- Wilson and xxx- devoted the bulk of their time to protecting xxx in the nets.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=5182,3482560&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

Holders of Allan Cup Take Hockey Round 5-4, "Phat" Wilson and xxx Play Stellar Game

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=6102,2373602&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

Hopes for Port Arthur fans for a third Allan Cup team in five years have swelled with the improved showing of the lake men's defense in the series opener. xxx, hard checking defensive stalwart, showed a new found attacking ability and "Phat" Wilson, veteran captain, bodied with unusual effectiveness.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=1482,2920079&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

Jovial "Phat" Wilson, best known ice star out of pro ranks, is retiring from his defense post for Port Arthur Sailors after 15 title-dotted years in the senior game...Next season, broad shoulder "Phat"...

When the "Old Fox" passed out of the stickhandling bodychecking panorama in 1929, "Phat" persevered in his struggle to yet unattained heights...So, "Phat" retired. Though he could still trade bumps with the huskiest or hurdle a hardy way through the finest foes, he said: "I don't feel the way I used to."

A young forward of the Ports' last team-who has since made good in pro company-tells of the fighting spirit "Phat" insisted in instilling in his mates, especially since he became captain 3 years ago.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=1945,4025219&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

Still other point to Gordon "Phat" Wilson as the greatest defenseman to ever ink a pro contract.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=7266,1412366&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

like his predecessor, the great Phat Wilson, seems satisfied to stay where he is. Wilson, who almost beat the Granites single handedly one night, was good enough for any hockey company.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=2046,5809121&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

But this year, there is Phat Wilson, who has already thrown out his own brand of body checks on 3 Allan Cup brigades.

For a dozen years, Wilson has been trading bumps and scoring goals in senior hockey-he had been at the game only 4 years when he entered the top level of the amateur game.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...NAAAAIBAJ&pg=2075,812066&dq=phat+wilson&hl=en

 

[seventieslord]

I'm really liking this, guys, we are viewing all these greats with really critical eyes right now.

Without doing a detailed analysis at this time, I'd say Nicholson's SC GAA is heavily skewed by the years in which he played for the Cup. Just because they're chronological contemporaries doesn't mean their stats (especially small samples like playoff stats) can be compared directly without adjustment; hockey changed quite a bit over the course of Nicholson's career, and he played for the Cup in the earlier, lower-scoring years while Hern did it later with higher scoring rates. Of the four I'd suspect Moran's SC GAA is the most impressive, since he compiled it in the later years.

- You are right that the timing affects the GAA greatly.

- I think competition level affects it even more. There were two types of stanley cup matches back in the challenge era: the ones that featured two great teams, and the ones that featured one great team. Nicholson's is the only playoff record among these four, that featured only the former.

- To properly account for scoring levels can be done, but then we'd be completely ignoring something even more important (competition) so there's really no point. I know we are smart enough to understand that not everything can be compared as though they are all apples. But does the "hockey establishment" that looks at simple numbers like GAA to determine who was great? So yeah, I do still find it somewhat of a curiosity that these three made it in but Nicholson didn't. As for Hern, I really liked what I found when I had him as an ATD12 backup. There's something to like about all of them and also a downside; for Hern, it is the very short career.

Boucher was on defence that year for Ottawa, but you've forgotten Ken Randall for Nicholson. Not to mention Reg Noble. Billy Coutu was a part-time player, and played LW as much as defence that year.

- I didn't forget Reg Noble, he just played 2 games, not worth mentioning as a reason for high or low GAA.

- Based on Randall's stats I think he was a forward or at least a swingman, correct me if I'm wrong.

- I knew something was up with Montreal, I thought it was Laviolette. I didn't realize Coutu was ever a forward.

 

[Velociraptor]

Jim Riley, LW

Riley played seven seasons with the Metropolitans between 1916 and 1924, a run that included four all-star team selections (one 1st and 3 2nds) for him and two championships for his team. He also finished second in the league goal scoring race twice, lighting the lamp 23 times in 1920-21 and 16 times in 1921-22.

He also scored a key OT goal in the sold-out home opener in the new building in Seattle in the 1916-17 season, spurring a season-long fan base and allowing the team to edge Vancouver by one game and avoid a playoff against a healthy Cyclone Taylor, the Mets going on that year to compete for the Stanley Cup against the Habs.

 

[jkrx]

Detroit Red Wings are proud to select:

Alexey Morozov, RW

 

[seventieslord]

- Good to see Riley fall down here to the 1000s from the 800s.

The two times he was 2nd in PCHA goals are just a bit deceiving because:

-they happened when the PCHA started to weaken in the 1920s,
-one of the times he was tied for 2nd with just 62% as many goals as the leader, Jack Adams, and just 3 ahead of the guy in 7th,
-based on assist totals, he was a poor playmaker.

Riley's best seasons as a percentage of the PCHA leader's point total: 69, 53, 53, 44.

Based on overall offense, I think he's about the 17th-most dominant PCHA forward ever, behind Taylor, Morris, MacKay, Fredrickson, Foyston, Dunderdale, Oatman, Harris, Kerr, Adams, Walker, Stanley, Roberts, Rowe (as a forward), and two undrafteds. Also, there are guys like Skinner and Cully Wilson who were not quite as offensively dominant in the PCHA but had other very good seasons either in the WCHL or the NHA/NHL, or both. Throw in the exclusively Eastern guys, of whom there are at least this many, and he's pretty far down the pecking order for his generation.

If we knew something about his non-offense skills there would be hope for him in the ATD. But as-is, he belongs firmly in the 1000s here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'll take D Phat Wilson

I'm off to orientation in Boston until Friday, and I have lists so I should be able to survive then with connection on my phone. I'll try to update the OP as much as I can. I'll still be here, but not as much.

Such an intriguing player. The only pure amateur to be inducted to the HHOF from an era when all the other great players had become pros. So how the hell do we know he great he was? He was definitely some level of great to lead his league in scoring as a defenseman, even if it was a totally crappy league. A full bio would be excellent, though I'm not sure what you could dig up to really put his accomplishments in perspective?

I'm really liking this, guys, we are viewing all these greats with really critical eyes right now.

....

- I knew something was up with Montreal, I thought it was Laviolette. I didn't realize Coutu was ever a forward.

Me too. Speaking of which, considering Coutu is drafted in the main draft based entirely on his stats, this has to drop his stock even more.

Detroit Red Wings are proud to select:

Alexey Morozov, RW

I really thought him being drafted in MLD2010 was a one-time thing.

 

[vecens24]

Detroit Red Wings are proud to select:

Alexey Morozov, RW

Being a Penguins fan I'll be very interested to hear the rationale behind this. I'm gonna need some major convincing he belong anywhere before pick 100 here at the earliest, even with the small amount of RWs.

Honestly I'm not sure he even has a place here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Being a Penguins fan I'll be very interested to hear the rationale behind this. I'm gonna need some major convincing he belong anywhere before pick 100 here at the earliest, even with the small amount of RWs.

Honestly I'm not sure he even has a place here.

He's obviously drafted for what he's doing in the KHL. His NHL career wouldn't even make him AA-draft worthy, unless the opposing goalie is Martin Brodeur (for some reason Morosov always seemed to own Brodeur).

The question they need to answer then is: Why should we care what he did / is doing in the KHL?

 

[seventieslord]

Speaking of which, considering Coutu is drafted in the main draft based entirely on his stats, this has to drop his stock even more.

...and a poor use of stats, at that.

i.e., "Coutu was top-10 in points by a defenseman 5 times" or whatever... yeah, 7th-10th, when the NHL was one of two or even three leagues, and never with close to half as many points as the leader. There have also been assumptions made, I think, with regards to his defensive ability because of his toughness. I'd draft him, at some point, but only for toughness.

 

[seventieslord]

He's obviously drafted for what he's doing in the KHL. His NHL career wouldn't even make him AA-draft worthy, unless the opposing goalie is Martin Brodeur (for some reason Morosov always seemed to own Brodeur).

The question they need to answer then is: Why should we care what he did / is doing in the KHL?

I think his KHL exploits prove that he is an NHL-caliber player, and couple that with his last two NHL seasons and I think he may have peaked at 70 points, and scored 55-60 consistently for a few other years. So yeah, not ATD worthy IMO. I'd consider him in the AAA but would ultimately pass too, I think. In the AA, he would start to look like a decent option when you look at who else gets taken there.

 

[BenchBrawl]

What's your opinions on Eric Vail people?

 

[seventieslord]

What's your opinions on Eric Vail people?

He was low on my list.