MLD 2011 Draft Thread I

[jarek]

So the minute leader on a terrible team has poor defensive stats? Go figure..... How many defensive stats does the NHL actually keep? +/- and what?


Honestly, I don't know exactly how Defensive Point Shares are calculated, but Jokinen ranks well in that statsistic during his time in Florida. He was also a team leader in short-handed scoring during his peak.

There are many defensive stats available. behindthenet.ca

 

[Dreakmur]

Wasn't expecting to be up tonight, so I have no idea who I'm picking. If the next GM is around, he can go ahead and pick. I'll pick in a little bit.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

There are many defensive stats available. behindthenet.ca

Yes. Goals against per 60 and quality of competition are the main ones. True, they aren't perfect, but when one player (like Jokinen) ranks terribly in both season after season, and the public perception of such a player is "lazy defensively," then I'd say it's a pretty good indicator.

Jokinen was near the top of our list for players we wanted to draft when Dreakmur got him, but it wasn't for his play away from the puck.

Honestly, I don't know exactly how Defensive Point Shares are calculated, but Jokinen ranks well in that statsistic during his time in Florida. He was also a team leader in short-handed scoring during his peak.

It's a joke statistic and an embarrassment to hockey-reference that they even publish it.

Here's a thread discussing why, in case you missed it: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=889335

 

[DaveG]

Good pick. He's actually not too far off from a lot of the recent offensive centers taken. Plus he has some value on the penalty kill.

Very, very consistent. I was comparing his six best percentage seasons with a group of about 8 other centers, and I was amazed to find that he had the worst "best season" of the group, but the best "6th-best season".

Yeah he's definitely a personal favorite of mine. I had him in the last AAA draft and felt he was among the best centers in that entire draft. Offensively I had him as one of the best playmakers still on the board and less injury prone then a couple notable ones, and defensively he's no slouch by any means. A bit disappointed that I couldn't get him and Sanderson to go with Mellanby but I honestly like the look of a Skvortsov-Cassels-Mellanby #2 line right now.

 

[jarek]

Baseball is easy to tabulate stats and use them religiously because offense and defense in baseball are so defined. There is no possible way to create a defensive situation out of an offensive one, and vice versa.

In hockey, it is very easy to do the exact opposite. You can create a defensive situation by having your 4th line out there, hemming the opponents in their own end which kills time. In general, having the puck in the opponent's end for prolonged periods of time has to count somewhat for defense, if only for the fact that the puck is not in your own end.

Ultimately, I feel like trying to find a statistic that brings all that together is impossible. There are too many factors involved both offensively and defensively in a play, and in many cases, a little bit of both. +/- is as much a defensive stat as it is an offensive one, for example.

A player that is -30 can be said to be bad defensively, but can also be said to be on a line that is counted on to check the opponents' best lines (and you can never truly stop star players 100% of the time), but never scoring.. and if your line isn't scoring, racking up the minuses is inevitable.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Heh, I just suggested Cassels to vecens as a potential guy for us to draft. Jokinen is definitely a better offensive player than Cassels, but I like Cassels' fairly well-rounded game.

 

[Dreakmur]

There are many defensive stats available. behindthenet.ca

For players who have played, or more importantly peaked, since 2008, that's great. For almost every player in this draft, that doesn't help.

 

[Dreakmur]

Yes. Goals against per 60 and quality of competition are the main ones. True, they aren't perfect, but when one player (like Jokinen) ranks terribly in both season after season, and the public perception of such a player is "lazy defensively," then I'd say it's a pretty good indicator.

Are those stats available before 2008? If not, you aren't seeing him at his best.

Jokinen was near the top of our list for players we wanted to draft when Dreakmur got him, but it wasn't for his play away from the puck.

I didn't draft him for his defense either.... nor did I ever say he was good. I said he was sometimes good, which is very true.

It's a joke statistic and an embarrassment to hockey-reference that they even publish it.

Here's a thread discussing why, in case you missed it: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=889335

Fair enough.

 

[Dreakmur]

Another lazy pick for me.....

I'll take rugged HHOF winger Shorty Green

 

[jarek]

Jokinen was sometimes good in his own zone just like Wayne Gretzky was sometimes good. Sometimes good doesn't mean all that much, unfortunately.

 

[Dreakmur]

Jokinen was sometimes good in his own zone just like Wayne Gretzky was sometimes good. Sometimes good doesn't mean all that much, unfortunately.

I didn't mean it to be that much.

TDMM just took one part of a large post and it grew into something more than it should have been.

 

[Dreakmur]

I think Bert Marshall will be my team captain. He seems to stand out in the leadership department.

That's enough bio-making for one night. I'm off to bed...

 

[Dwight]

If Dreak just picked, I believe that means it's our turn.

Awesome Express selects Don Saleski, RW

 

[DaveG]

debating who to choose as my captain. I'm leaning towards Mellanby with Konowalchuk getting one of the As. Kono's also an option for captain but IIRC the only time he was a captain was when those Caps teams were in tank mode. That doesn't make him a poor leader by any means, but it does kindof point out that the team was getting rid of a lot of its vets.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

im tire . im tire of 18 something people taing all of their 4 hour clock like they're real busy like they ow a company , just be on time ( INSERT A REALLL BAD WORD )

Can't speak for anyone else, but I do own a company and am fully self-employed. Surely you knew about the 4 hour clock before we started the draft?

 

[seventieslord]

im tire . im tire of 18 something people taing all of their 4 hour clock like they're real busy like they ow a company , just be on time ( INSERT A REALLL BAD WORD )

you know who you are , not taking this stuff sriously like it's less important than your dates with girl you wont ever sleep with because you ar just bad with gwomen.


DAMN

i like yall but sometimesa man needs some tough love

follow the draft , thuis important, this is history , this something nobody has ever done before , this is something we are part of which will ultimately be recognized as proof of hockeyhistory knowledge in 10years.this is not fantas drat , ukers

LOL. The bolded is just enough to keep this post from getting deleted along with the rest of your drunken crap. Just barely.

Another lazy pick for me.....

I'll take rugged HHOF winger Shorty Green

Alright, now that he's picked, let's talk. Red Green or Shorty Green? And why? We'll need to talk about their whole careers here, and not just the NHL.

I'll start: the way I see it, Red's got the better NHL career. Both have two seasons worth talking about. For Red, it's his 1925, when he had 74% of the leader, and 1924, when he had 54%. For Shorty, it's the same two years, but 59% and 54%. So their 2nd best seasons wash out but Red's got the edge in his best season. both had a gritty, combative nature, apparently. Both wingers so neither can suffer from positional scarcity/commonness. I know nothing of their defense and haven't researched their non-NHL careers.

debating who to choose as my captain. I'm leaning towards Mellanby with Konowalchuk getting one of the As. Kono's also an option for captain but IIRC the only time he was a captain was when those Caps teams were in tank mode. That doesn't make him a poor leader by any means, but it does kindof point out that the team was getting rid of a lot of its vets.

Mellanby, no question.

----------------

someone can start the new thread anytime now.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Alright, now that he's picked, let's talk. Red Green or Shorty Green? And why? We'll need to talk about their whole careers here, and not just the NHL.

I'll start: the way I see it, Red's got the better NHL career. Both have two seasons worth talking about. For Red, it's his 1925, when he had 74% of the leader, and 1924, when he had 54%. For Shorty, it's the same two years, but 59% and 54%. So their 2nd best seasons wash out but Red's got the edge in his best season. both had a gritty, combative nature, apparently. Both wingers so neither can suffer from positional scarcity/commonness. I know nothing of their defense and haven't researched their non-NHL careers.

Red, no question.

In their pre-NHL careers, they played four seasons together in Sudbury at the senior level.

Red was 75-27-102 in 29 games.
Wilf was 33-13-46 in 26 games.

Even if Wilf were the better defensive player, he would need to be massively better to make up the difference in offence. And Wilf's totals above rely on a single big season; without it he's barely over a point per game. Take out the same season for Red and he's still over 3 points per game.

 

[Dreakmur]

Alright, now that he's picked, let's talk. Red Green or Shorty Green? And why? We'll need to talk about their whole careers here, and not just the NHL.

I'll start: the way I see it, Red's got the better NHL career. Both have two seasons worth talking about. For Red, it's his 1925, when he had 74% of the leader, and 1924, when he had 54%. For Shorty, it's the same two years, but 59% and 54%. So their 2nd best seasons wash out but Red's got the edge in his best season. both had a gritty, combative nature, apparently. Both wingers so neither can suffer from positional scarcity/commonness. I know nothing of their defense and haven't researched their non-NHL careers.

Without doing further research, it looks like Red Green was better than Shorty. Shorty was a big part of an Allen Cup after being injured in WW1. Hopefully, there is some good information out there.

If you asked me why Shorty is in the Hall of Fame, I would probably say it's because he played with eplilepsy. He would often have seizured during games. Also, he was forced out of the game due to serious kidney problems (actually, I read that this was caused by an injury during a game). His WW1 service might have helped, and also the whole "Shorty Green" fountains in Hamilton.....

Edit:
I found that his career was in fact ended by an injury. He suffered a "dislocated kidney". It was so serious that his last rites were given in hospital.

He apparently got up, and finsihed the period, but collapsed in the dressing room.

 

[DaveG]

working on a new thread right now

 

[seventieslord]

Without doing further research, it looks like Red Green was better than Shorty. Shorty was a big part of an Allen Cup after being injured in WW1. Hopefully, there is some good information out there.

If you asked me why Shorty is in the Hall of Fame, I would probably say it's because he played with eplilepsy. He would often have seizured during games. Also, he was forced out of the game due to serious kidney problems (actually, I read that this was caused by an injury during a game). His WW1 service might have helped, and also the whole "Shorty Green" fountains in Hamilton.....

Edit:
I found that his career was in fact ended by an injury. He suffered a "dislocated kidney". It was so serious that his last rites were given in hospital.

He apparently got up, and finsihed the period, but collapsed in the dressing room.

Good research. I did not know that.