OT: MLB Thread Part IX: I want my #BaeRod royalties

[Machinehead]

I mean there's really nothing to say other than this is incorrect and it's even more incorrect in playoff baseball when starters throw a higher percent of a teams total innings than a starter would in the regular season.

It's true that in the playoffs you can hide weaknesses in the rotation and even your bullpen by having 3-4 good starters throw more. You can't hide a closer. If you don't have a closer, you're not winning the World Series.

 

[Cassano]

As a whole I'd rather have a good rotation over a good bullpen yes, but I'd rather have one elite closer who's pitching between 50 and 70 games, almost all of them close games, than one elite starter who plays once a week.

In other words I'd take the 2015 Mets staff over the 2009 Yankees staff, but I'd take Mariano over Bumgarner.

But you could also play Bumgarner out of the pen to close out a game. See Game 7 of the World Series last year.

The transition from starter to reliever is much easier IMO and the starter can even go for a long outing from the pen.

 

[Machinehead]

Didn't Bumgarner start game 7 and go all the way or am I loony?

No you're right he did get the save. He went 5 innings, that's why I was confused. Forgot all about Affeldt.

 

[sbjnyc]

I mean there's really nothing to say other than this is incorrect and it's even more incorrect in playoff baseball when starters throw a higher percent of a teams total innings than a starter would in the regular season.

You really didn't address the issue. You have to get to the playoffs before you worry about playoff baseball. What is more likely to get you to the playoffs, 1 good starter and a good pen or 3 good starters and a mediocre pen? What good is a quality start if your pen can't hold a lead?

 

[Machinehead]

You really didn't address the issue. You have to get to the playoffs before you worry about playoff baseball. What is more likely to get you to the playoffs, 1 good starter and a good pen or 3 good starters and a mediocre pen? What good is a quality start if your pen can't hold a lead?

I think they're both important, I just think bullpens -especially dominant closers- are severely underrated.

Even the Mets this year, who have the most overwhelming rotation you can imagine, are losing games because of their bullpen.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

Starters are no doubt more valuable than closers, and you take an elite starter over an elite relief pitcher every day. Hell, you probably take a good starter over an elite relief pitcher every day too.

but relief pitchers play a position with its own unique counting stats (just stating a fact, not talking about the value of holds or saves ). If they are going to have their own roles, then you should recognize the elite players who filled that role throughout the history of the game.

 

[Cassano]

I think 2 decent comparable teams for this topic can be the 2015 Mets pitching vs. the 2014 Royals pitching. I'd take the Mets without any hesitation. Royals had one of the best pens in a long time that season.

 

[Machinehead]

Maybe I'm biased from my own experiences but what I know is I saw the Yankees win 5 titles, and we didn't always have overwhelming power or a great rotation. We had one constant: the game was over if we had a lead after 8.

Except that one time in 2001, but that series only goes 7 games because Arizona's closer couldn't stop a leaky faucet.

 

[sbjnyc]

Maybe I'm biased from my own experiences but what I know is I saw the Yankees win 5 titles, and we didn't always have overwhelming power or a great rotation. We had one constant: the game was over if we had a lead after 8.

Except that one time in 2001, but that series only goes 7 games because Arizona's closer couldn't stop a leaky faucet.

Yeah that's the point. If you have several good starters you don't rely on your bullpen as much butif they don't pitch well you'll still lose. Mets don't have a complete game all year so they've relied on their bullpen in every game this season. However the Mets have the most starts of 7+ innings in the majors so they probably rely on their bullpen the least. Would the yankees even be in a wildcard spot without their bullpen?

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah that's the point. If you have several good starters you don't rely on your bullpen as much butif they don't pitch well you'll still lose. Mets don't have a complete game all year so they've relied on their bullpen in every game this season. However the Mets have the most starts of 7+ innings in the majors so they probably rely on their bullpen the least. Would the yankees even be in a wildcard spot without their bullpen?

The Yankees would be a total afterthought without Betances and Miller at the top of that bullpen. We have a mediocre rotation and a boom or bust lineup.

 

[darko]

As a whole I'd rather have a good rotation over a good bullpen yes, but I'd rather have one elite closer who's pitching between 50 and 70 games, almost all of them close games, than one elite starter who plays once a week.

In other words I'd take the 2015 Mets staff over the 2009 Yankees staff, but I'd take Mariano over Bumgarner.

Bumgarner pitches 200+ innings a season. Rivera pitches around 80-90.

 

[Machinehead]

Bumgarner pitches 200+ innings a season. Rivera pitches around 80-90.

Of course, but my argument is that a closer affects more games and almost always in a position where the game could go either way.

 

[darko]

Of course, but my argument is that a closer affects more games and almost always in a position where the game could go either way.

More games but a much smaller impact overall.

 

[sbjnyc]

The problem with assessing relievers is that saves are not a useful stat.

 

[darko]

The problem with assessing relievers is that saves are not a useful stat.

Yup it's a pretty silly stat. Saving the game in the 7th inning is just as important as saving in the 9th.

 

[sbjnyc]

Yup it's a pretty silly stat. Saving the game in the 7th inning is just as important as saving in the 9th.

Yeah I always thought that coaches should think about bringing in closers in big situations in the 7th inning but usually they'll bring in a mediocre middle reliever. I think there was a game not too long ago when a pitcher was in for the final 3 innings of a 16 run blowout and got a save out of it.

 

[SA16]

You really didn't address the issue. You have to get to the playoffs before you worry about playoff baseball. What is more likely to get you to the playoffs, 1 good starter and a good pen or 3 good starters and a mediocre pen? What good is a quality start if your pen can't hold a lead?

Second option and it's not really all that close.

 

[sbjnyc]

Second option and it's not really all that close.

Do you think the Yankees would be in a playoff position now if they had a mediocre bullpen?

 

[SA16]

Most likely, yes.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Starters are no doubt more valuable than closers, and you take an elite starter over an elite relief pitcher every day. Hell, you probably take a good starter over an elite relief pitcher every day too.

but relief pitchers play a position with its own unique counting stats (just stating a fact, not talking about the value of holds or saves ). If they are going to have their own roles, then you should recognize the elite players who filled that role throughout the history of the game.

I would easily take a good starter over an elite reliever. Absolutely.

That's why all of these guys (almost all) start out as starters. They are just exponentially more valuable.

 

[Zil]

Maybe I'm biased from my own experiences but what I know is I saw the Yankees win 5 titles, and we didn't always have overwhelming power or a great rotation. We had one constant: the game was over if we had a lead after 8.

Except that one time in 2001, but that series only goes 7 games because Arizona's closer couldn't stop a leaky faucet.

I seem to remember something happening in 2004 too.

 

[nyr2k2]

The Mets should try Verrett in the seventh. He's not overpowering, but he's smart, has good command, and in short spurts can dial it up to 95.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

The Mets should try Verrett in the seventh. He's not overpowering, but he's smart, has good command, and in short spurts can dial it up to 95.

That's exactly what I said before the last time they sent him down.

To be honest, I think Goeddel has more overpowering stuff than him. Whoever is doing better I would slot as the 7th inning guy. Verrett absolutely shouldn't be exposed to any type of waivers or rule 40 status again. He is versatile and good. Not overpowering. But he can have a long and steady career doing exactly what he's been doing for the mets.

 

[nyr2k2]

The roster expansion will help the Mets pen. They can work Montero and Goeddel back into the mix and maybe take another look at Vic Black. I know Black has been trash in Vegas, but that place does strange things to pitchers.

Gilmartin should also be tried in some higher-leverage situations.

 

[BarbaraAlphanse]

The roster expansion will help the Mets pen. They can work Montero and Goeddel back into the mix and maybe take another look at Vic Black. I know Black has been trash in Vegas, but that place does strange things to pitchers.

Gilmartin should also be tried in some higher-leverage situations.

Montero is done for the year. Black has been dominant for about the last month. Alvarez and Black will be back up. I anticipate Gee and Bowman, too.