OT: MLB Thread Part IX: I want my #BaeRod royalties

[RangerBlues]

Mariano Rivera is in top five most dominate players of his generation.
Let haters hate.

 

[BlueshirtBlitz]

I actually wouldn't vote for Rivera on the HOF Ballot. I wouldn't ever vote for any reliever though. Pretty much by definition a reliever if a pitcher who wasn't good enough to be a starter or they would be a starter as the value a starter can generate is much much higher than the value any RP can. So many pitchers (Rivera included) were bad SP who then turned into good/great RP (Betances/Miller/Perkins/Joba/Matusz/Britton/Parnell/Clippard/Davis/Duke/T. Wood/Delgado/Benoit) just to name some that are active. And the number of guys who went in reverse (Bad RP to good SP are so few..looks CJ Wilson/Colby Lewis? Chris Sale doesn't really count given his draft status and such and that he was rushed to try to help immediately).

To me voting for a reliever would be like voting for someone like Dominic Moore for the NHL HOF. I can't think of a great example but someone whose the best at an inferior role. Like maybe Dominic Moore is the BEST 4th line center. But so what? Just means he wasn't good enough to be the best 3rd line center or 2nd line center or 1st line center. It's rewarding success to players who aren't good enough/capable (and not having endurance/multiple pitches counts here) of performing in a more important role.

This doesn't work until starters can go 9 innings every 5 days, or until they can concoct a rotation that somehow splits starts between everyone in a bullpen or something. If it was so cut and dry than every failed starting pitcher would become a good reliever.

I think as long as the concept of the "relief pitcher" exists, the most elite relievers should be in the HOF.

 

[sbjnyc]

To me voting for a reliever would be like voting for someone like Dominic Moore for the NHL HOF.

Um this makes no sense to me.

 

[RangerBlues]

People who deny that Rivera does not have first ballot HOF credentials make no sense to me.

 

[SA16]

This doesn't work until starters can go 9 innings every 5 days, or until they can concoct a rotation that somehow splits starts between everyone in a bullpen or something. If it was so cut and dry than every failed starting pitcher would become a good reliever.

I think as long as the concept of the "relief pitcher" exists, the most elite relievers should be in the HOF.

No. Why would you say "Every"? There are so many guys who were awful SP that became good or great RP and very few the other way around. Rivera is obviously the best of them. I'm certainly not arguing that he isn't. The best RP is essentially someone who wasn't good enough to be a starter and then was the best at a less important/easier role. I don't think you deserve to be rewarded for being the best at a role like that.

Should the guy who is the best pinch hitter of all time make the HOF? The best special teams player in the NFL? The best 4th line center/3rd pairing defenseman? The best backup goalie? The best utility/platoon player in MLB? The best 6th man in the NBA? I'm on the fence about DH's but would lead more to yes than no as they do have a huge contribution offensively and play almost every inning of every game. Not playing the field does hurt them but then again..if say David Ortiz did play the field I think that should actually hurt his HOF chances relative to DH since he's so bad there it'd make him even less valuable a player if he were playing the field.

 

[sbjnyc]

People who deny that Rivera does not have first ballot HOF credentials make no sense to me.

Is that a triple negative?

There are 6 closers in the HoF. It is hard to argue that Rivera wasn't the best of all time let alone the best of his generation. And I am not a yankee fan.

 

[Machinehead]

Relievers used to be guys who weren't good enough to be starters. It's since become very much a position for which guys are groomed.

 

[sbjnyc]

Everyone has a hit tonight except cespedes.

Edit: Even crazier - mets have more extra base hits in 3 innings than the 8 last night.

Correction: everyone has a hit.

 

[nyr2k2]

When was the last time a pitcher allowed 9 or more XBH in one start?

This thing they do in Colorado...it isn't baseball.

 

[nyr2k2]

Also, Rusin's game score is - 11. Lol.

 

[sbjnyc]

Mets might score more than the giants tonight.

 

[darko]

I understand not voting for the closers but there's 5 in HOF already and Rivera's numbers blow them all out of the water.

Hoyt Wilhelm is widely considered the 2nd greatest closer of all time. His ERA+ is 147
Rivera's 205. Anyone not voting for Rivera is nuts.

 

[SA16]

Coors Field is a joke

I mean this is just lol

 

[surf]

Whats up with Gary Cohen these days and his HR calls? I have never heard a worse butchered call than Cespedes grand slam the other night and he has many others lately too.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Relievers used to be guys who weren't good enough to be starters. It's since become very much a position for which guys are groomed.

That's really not all that accurate, Machine. You have guys go in the minors as long as they can before converting them to relief. Some guys aren't cut out for starting at all, but I would hardly consider that "grooming" them. The value of a starter is exponentially more than that of a reliever. It's not even close.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Whats up with Gary Cohen these days and his HR calls? I have never heard a worse butchered call than Cespedes grand slam the other night and he has many others lately too.

Did you really watch the HR, though? I lost sight of the ball myself. I don't blame him. No one on AA really knew what was up, either, at the time.

His call last night on Tejada's grab and toss was OUTSTANDING.

 

[sbjnyc]

That's really not all that accurate, Machine. You have guys go in the minors as long as they can before converting them to relief. Some guys aren't cut out for starting at all, but I would hardly consider that "grooming" them. The value of a starter is exponentially more than that of a reliever. It's not even close.

I'd rather have a good bullpen than just 1 good starter But I'd rather have 3 good starters than a good bullpen. Or something along those lines.

 

[nyrleetch]

Tino Martinez is the greatest Yankee of the 90's-00's he's criminally underrated.

 

[Hire Sather]

No reason to remove Verrett from this game. Just get closer to using Familia by starting the pitching changes.

 

[nyr2k2]

What a huge start by Verrett. The bullpen really needed a rest. He probably would have been able to go for the CG had Terry not inexplicably pulled him. Regardless, he really gave the team a great performance. I'm thrilled that we got the kid back.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Verrett should replace Colon. He's a better pitcher.

 

[surf]

Props to one of you guys who have been calling for Verette he came in and dominated. Nice call

 

[rktaker]

wright comes back tomorrow and i am nervous he's my favorite player but who knows if he's 100%

 

[Machinehead]

That's really not all that accurate, Machine. You have guys go in the minors as long as they can before converting them to relief. Some guys aren't cut out for starting at all, but I would hardly consider that "grooming" them. The value of a starter is exponentially more than that of a reliever. It's not even close.

As a whole I'd rather have a good rotation over a good bullpen yes, but I'd rather have one elite closer who's pitching between 50 and 70 games, almost all of them close games, than one elite starter who plays once a week.

In other words I'd take the 2015 Mets staff over the 2009 Yankees staff, but I'd take Mariano over Bumgarner.

 

[SA16]

As a whole I'd rather have a good rotation over a good bullpen yes, but I'd rather have one elite closer who's pitching between 50 and 70 games, almost all of them close games, than one elite starter who plays once a week.

In other words I'd take the 2015 Mets staff over the 2009 Yankees staff, but I'd take Mariano over Bumgarner.

I mean there's really nothing to say other than this is incorrect and it's even more incorrect in playoff baseball when starters throw a higher percent of a teams total innings than a starter would in the regular season.