Blue Jays Discussion: MLB Draft, June 9-11

[Epictetus]

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[Suntouchable13]

Yes, AA did trade lots of prospects away but it was for players that had years left on their deals. The only rental player he traded for was Price. He traded prospects away for established major league players under control for years.

 

[Paladin2799]

Honestly, the only deal people should be sour about is the dickey deal.

Every one of his other trades, in context, were fine/great.

This is the man who got us donaldson..

 

[Hotel Mario]

Honestly, the only deal people should be sour about is the dickey deal.

Every one of his other trades, in context, were fine/great.

This is the man who got us donaldson..

I'm sour about the Esmil Rogers for Yan Gomes trade AND the dickey deal.

 

[The Nemesis]

I'm sour about the Esmil Rogers for Yan Gomes trade AND the dickey deal.

I keep repeating this, but nobody should be sour about Gomes because nobody saw that coming from Gomes. And anyone who says they did is lying.

 

[Paladin2799]

I keep repeating this, but nobody should be sour about Gomes because nobody saw that coming from Gomes. And anyone who says they did is lying.

I agree on these.

Sometimes a player just puts it together and no one saw it coming.

Jbats was like that. Replacement level player, finally his swing clicked and he turned into the 50hr monster he was.

Scrub for Scrub deals happen all the time, we shouldnt be crying about them.

Dickey for Thor was one we shouldnt have done.

 

[Fantomas]

Regarding my post in the previous thread - yes, I know that Shapiro is not the GM. However we know that Atkins is not autonomous and that Shapiro has his hands in every potential deal.

What made the AA era unique is the fact that the GM had virtually complete control over every move. It was specifically Shapiro that put an end to this, which means that every move is now made through collective discussion.

So I think it makes sense to compare AA to Shapiro.

 

[metafour]

Yes, AA did trade lots of prospects away but it was for players that had years left on their deals. The only rental player he traded for was Price. He traded prospects away for established major league players under control for years.

Josh Johnson was a rental as well. That entire Miami trade was **** as the Marlins literally signed Reyes and Buehrle just a year prior to giant contracts. We didn't want to pay them on the open market, yet only a year later decided to trade a bunch of prospects to acquire their long-term contracts. The Marlins got Reyes for one season at $10 million and then we were stuck with the $10, $16, $22, and $22 mill decline seasons which went so poorly that we had to unload even more prospects just to get rid of him.

 

[metafour]

Regarding my post in the previous thread - yes, I know that Shapiro is not the GM. However we know that Atkins is not autonomous and that Shapiro has his hands in every potential deal.

What made the AA era unique is the fact that the GM had virtually complete control over every move. It was specifically Shapiro that put an end to this, which means that every move is now made through collective discussion.

So I think it makes sense to compare AA to Shapiro.

AA had people like LaCava, Tinnish, etc. under him that influenced moves as well; he wasn't doing everything by himself. Those people are all still in the organization, and they're still influential. Shapiro is not "equal" to AA; he's got about 4-5 high-ranking executives who are more than capable of handling day-to-day baseball operations without his input. He has to "OK" moves, but so did Beeston...that doesn't mean that he's running the team.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Not sure how anybody could honestly say the Marlins deal wasn't a complete loss for us. It was an awful trade. AA was great at drafting and building a farm(Or pitchers to be exact he avoided position players like the plague) but got very short sighted and made some bad moves, and now we are left with a team with a core on the wrong side of 30 zero pay roll flexibility and a bottom 10/5 farm system. AA was not the worst GM and I am not trying to say that what so ever, I liked that he wasn't afraid to make big moves, it paid off with Donaldson but in other cases it didn't. In the way that he wasn't the worst....he also isn't the god that some people seem to see him as now. I always come back to it but half way through the season last year there were people calling for his head and then 6 months later people were ready to grab there pitch forks when they had the gaul to not give him free reign on the team.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Not sure how anybody could honestly say the Marlins deal wasn't a complete loss for us. It was an awful trade. AA was great at drafting and building a farm(Or pitchers to be exact he avoided position players like the plague) but got very short sighted and made some bad moves, and now we are left with a team with a core on the wrong side of 30 zero pay roll flexibility and a bottom 10/5 farm system. AA was not the worst GM and I am not trying to say that what so ever, I liked that he wasn't afraid to make big moves, it paid off with Donaldson but in other cases it didn't. In the way that he wasn't the worst....he also isn't the god that some people seem to see him as now. I always come back to it but half way through the season last year there were people calling for his head and then 6 months later people were ready to grab there pitch forks when they had the gaul to not give him free reign on the team.

His 2014 offseason (estrada/donaldson) + 2015 deadline moves (price/tulo/lowe/revere) changed the narrative about him.

Go back about 11 months, and read the opinions about him. The majority of the fanbase wanted him fired.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Alford seems to be coming around. He's been better the last few games, 3 for 3 again today

 

[tp71]

I keep repeating this, but nobody should be sour about Gomes because nobody saw that coming from Gomes. And anyone who says they did is lying.

That and the last two years (injuries aside) he's been merely average. Batting .185 through 30+ games to kick off the 2016 season.

He could very well still be a flash in the pan as much as I like him.

 

[tp71]

Not sure how anybody could honestly say the Marlins deal wasn't a complete loss for us. It was an awful trade.

Lets break it down then:

Henderson Alvarez: Had a 6.45 era through 4 starts last season before an injury struck - granted free agency after the season, signed in Oakland, yet to pitch. His numbers may look decent this year being in a favourable park.

Anthony DeSclafani: Traded to the Reds for Mat Latos. Had a 4.05 era, with a 1.34 whip. Currently in rehab for an oblique strain.

Yunel Escobar: Does anyone care about that jackass factory - to borrow a phrase from King of the Hill - he had to go with all the baggage he had.

Adeiny Hechavarria: Batting .259 with a .635 ops through 4 seasons in Miami. His best season was a 2.1 WAR season. Hasn't had over .6 any other season. Remains to be seen if he can keep a decent pace like last season.

Jake Marisnick: Traded to Houston - batting .105 through 20 games - had 105k:18bb last season through 133 games and 339 abs.

Justin Nicolino: 4.09 era through 17 career starts over two seasons. 1.26 WHIP. FIP of 5.14 though 5 starts so far this season.

Jeff Mathis: Yea...Hasn't hit over .200 in any season with Miami in his four seasons there.
------------------------------------------------
Is there anyone here that we should be losing sleep over? Maybe Nicolino and DeSclafani?

Was it as bad as you're saying? I doubt it.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Lets break it down then:

Henderson Alvarez: Had a 6.45 era through 4 starts last season before an injury struck - granted free agency after the season, signed in Oakland, yet to pitch. His numbers may look decent this year being in a favourable park.

Anthony DeSclafani: Traded to the Reds for Mat Latos. Had a 4.05 era, with a 1.34 whip. Currently in rehab for an oblique strain.

Yunel Escobar: Does anyone care about that jackass factory - to borrow a phrase from King of the Hill - he had to go with all the baggage he had.

Adeiny Hechavarria: Batting .259 with a .635 ops through 4 seasons in Miami. His best season was a 2.1 WAR season. Hasn't had over .6 any other season. Remains to be seen if he can keep a decent pace like last season.

Jake Marisnick: Traded to Houston - batting .105 through 20 games - had 105k:18bb last season through 133 games and 339 abs.

Justin Nicolino: 4.09 era through 17 career starts over two seasons. 1.26 WHIP. FIP of 5.14 though 5 starts so far this season.

Jeff Mathis: Yea...Hasn't hit over .200 in any season with Miami in his four seasons there.
------------------------------------------------
Is there anyone here that we should be losing sleep over? Maybe Nicolino and DeSclafani?

Was it as bad as you're saying? I doubt it.

We basically traded a bunch of young, cheap and serviceable depth for expensive,old and declining play from 3 players that were over the hill. Yeah nobody on the Marlins side has turned into a star thankfully but we basically traded them for the ability to pay Reyes and Buerhle just under $40 million what that group of players could have done at a fraction of the cost. It's not all just what the players have become in a vaccum, it was terrible asset management and cost us in financial flexibility. It isn't as bad as the Dickey trade not even close, but it was a clear loss and that's all my point is. He lost that trade.

 

[tp71]

We basically traded a bunch of young, cheap and serviceable depth for expensive,old and declining play from 3 players that were over the hill. Yeah nobody on the Marlins side has turned into a star thankfully but we basically traded them for the ability to pay Reyes and Buerhle just under $40 million what that group of players could have done at a fraction of the cost. It's not all just what the players have become in a vaccum, it was terrible asset management and cost us in financial flexibility. It isn't as bad as the Dickey trade not even close, but it was a clear loss and that's all my point is. He lost that trade.

He saw an opportunity to get a guarantee that these guys were what they should be as opposed to what a bunch of players at the time *could be*. That's the key. At the time these prospects could all have been nothing.

Buerhle was very servicable for his time here and played a big role in the team for a veteran presence. I don't think that should be overlooked. Reyes ended up (with others) turning into Tulowitzki whom is/was considered one of the best SS in the game. All of these players may not have been anything last year for the Jays, some of the players we got were at least contributing to a playoff contending team. That we know.

AA saw an opportunity to go for the playoffs and took it. I respect him having the balls to roll those dice. I'd rather have a GM go for it than sit around going...we could have...but well...we're still middling because we chose the mystery box.

At the end of the day, I think it worked out alright for both teams. They got cost certainty and control, we got a team good enough to contend and a pretty damn fun playoff appearance.

 

[The Nemesis]

He saw an opportunity to get a guarantee that these guys were what they should be as opposed to what a bunch of players at the time *could be*. That's the key. At the time these prospects could all have been nothing.

Buerhle was very servicable for his time here and played a big role in the team for a veteran presence. I don't think that should be overlooked. Reyes ended up (with others) turning into Tulowitzki whom is/was considered one of the best SS in the game. All of these players may not have been anything last year for the Jays, some of the players we got were at least contributing to a playoff contending team. That we know.

AA saw an opportunity to go for the playoffs and took it. I respect him having the balls to roll those dice. I'd rather have a GM go for it than sit around going...we could have...but well...we're still middling because we chose the mystery box.

At the end of the day, I think it worked out alright for both teams. They got cost certainty and control, we got a team good enough to contend and a pretty damn fun playoff appearance.

MLB talent is MLB talent, but the mystery box could be anything! It could even be MLB talent! You know how much we've needed some of that!

It's really a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Trade the prospects for a playoff push = "wahh, you sacrificed the future." horde the prospects instead of using them to get rich quick = "all this time we've spent waiting for prospects could've been used to try and contend."

 

[p.l.f.]

back to the drawing board

 

[TheBeastCoast]

He saw an opportunity to get a guarantee that these guys were what they should be as opposed to what a bunch of players at the time *could be*. That's the key. At the time these prospects could all have been nothing.

Buerhle was very servicable for his time here and played a big role in the team for a veteran presence. I don't think that should be overlooked. Reyes ended up (with others) turning into Tulowitzki whom is/was considered one of the best SS in the game. All of these players may not have been anything last year for the Jays, some of the players we got were at least contributing to a playoff contending team. That we know.

AA saw an opportunity to go for the playoffs and took it. I respect him having the balls to roll those dice. I'd rather have a GM go for it than sit around going...we could have...but well...we're still middling because we chose the mystery box.

At the end of the day, I think it worked out alright for both teams. They got cost certainty and control, we got a team good enough to contend and a pretty damn fun playoff appearance.

I partially agree with you. AA took a shot he opened our window in the immediate future but shortened the length of it that is just the reality of it. When you trade young cost controlled talent by the truck load for older "proven" talent it is for the short term gain and long term pain and there will be pain coming it is what it is we got an awesome 4 months last year but I was hoping that AA was building a more viable and long term contending team and that just isn't the route he went.

 

[Brown Dog]

Another late inning collapse spoils another gem from the rotation.

Of course would have been moot if we could have put up more than 2 runs against a guy making his MLB debut as a starter for the worst team in baseball. When is this lineup going to start producing some runs?!

 

[Fantomas]

AA had people like LaCava, Tinnish, etc. under him that influenced moves as well; he wasn't doing everything by himself. Those people are all still in the organization, and they're still influential. Shapiro is not "equal" to AA; he's got about 4-5 high-ranking executives who are more than capable of handling day-to-day baseball operations without his input. He has to "OK" moves, but so did Beeston...that doesn't mean that he's running the team.

I don't think it is comparable at all. AA had autonomy. He left because he lost that autonomy under Shapiro.

Shapiro is the boss. He is the one that defines the fundamental values within which trades can be made. Beeston never had such a broad grasp and certainly did not micromanage.

I think Atkins is just Shapiro's tool.

 

[tp71]

I partially agree with you. AA took a shot he opened our window in the immediate future but shortened the length of it that is just the reality of it. When you trade young cost controlled talent by the truck load for older "proven" talent it is for the short term gain and long term pain and there will be pain coming it is what it is we got an awesome 4 months last year but I was hoping that AA was building a more viable and long term contending team and that just isn't the route he went.

But that's not necessarily true though.

The Jays could contend this year which would be more awesome fun time. Then into the future you have Sanchez, Stroman, Pillar, Osuna, Travis, Smoak (if you want to keep him). They have lots of controlled phenomenal young talent already here. And that's not discussing guys like Donaldson (if they can lock him up) and Tulo (if he can stay relatively healthy).

Even unloading the farm they have tons of great talent young and old. They have Tellez, SRF, Alford to name a few...they only thing really missing is the up and coming catcher imo. Depends on what you think of Pentecost/Jiminez.

That doesn't even start to begin to think of what they could get for Donaldson if they decided to move a perennial top 3B if that time should come.

It remains that they have at least one top starter in Stroman, a young starter who is starting to look like what he was advertised as in Sanchez and a phenomenal bullpen arm (could be stretched out) in Osuna. You have your young pitching core already. You have your young inflielder and a solid CF option. The long term core is still there even if the "cupboard is bare".

If the Jays season starts to slouch, they can possibly refill that cupboard if Bautista/Edwin relinquish their no trade rights. Lots of good options going forward. It isn't as bleak as some make it out to be imo.

And this is coming from a fan who really likes players with lots of control as well.

Is it perfect? No. But no team ever is.

(To be honest, it was just kinda fun to look up where all the players in that trade ended up)

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I don't think it is comparable at all. AA had autonomy. He left because he lost that autonomy under Shapiro.

Shapiro is the boss. He is the one that defines the fundamental values within which trades can be made. Beeston never had such a broad grasp and certainly did not micromanage.

I think Atkins is just Shapiro's tool.

It's like you don't realize how front office's work in baseball anymore. Is Zaidi a tool for Freidman? Is Hoyer just a tool for Epstein? Not to mention that AA left to be the number 4 in LA. The modern front office does not work with the GM making all the calls while the president sits in his office sips on his whiskey and tokes on a cigar and makes a call to the board for cash a few times a year. Our situation in the front office is no different then any other team in baseball and it is extremely normal to have the president be a baseball guy. This whole rhetoric about Shapiro is honestly hilarious. Like just do a little bit of digging into it and how front offices work in baseball.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

But that's not necessarily true though.

The Jays could contend this year which would be more awesome fun time. Then into the future you have Sanchez, Stroman, Pillar, Osuna, Travis, Smoak (if you want to keep him). They have lots of controlled phenomenal young talent already here. And that's not discussing guys like Donaldson (if they can lock him up) and Tulo (if he can stay relatively healthy).

Even unloading the farm they have tons of great talent young and old. They have Tellez, SRF, Alford to name a few...they only thing really missing is the up and coming catcher imo. Depends on what you think of Pentecost/Jiminez.

That doesn't even start to begin to think of what they could get for Donaldson if they decided to move a perennial top 3B if that time should come.

It remains that they have at least one top starter in Stroman, a young starter who is starting to look like what he was advertised as in Sanchez and a phenomenal bullpen arm (could be stretched out) in Osuna. You have your young pitching core already. You have your young inflielder and a solid CF option. The long term core is still there even if the "cupboard is bare".

If the Jays season starts to slouch, they can possibly refill that cupboard if Bautista/Edwin relinquish their no trade rights. Lots of good options going forward. It isn't as bleak as some make it out to be imo. And this is coming from a fan who really likes players with lots of control as well.

Is it perfect? No. But no team ever is.

(To be honest, it was just kinda fun to look up where all the players in that trade ended up)

The remaining core left with EE and Bautista gone is good enough for this team to middle out in my opinion. That's the problem we will be a middling team stuck with potentially two anchor contracts in Martin and Tulo. As for the prospects, some of them have been promising but none of them are good enough to truly be able to expect any long term value out of them yet, we are still a well below average farm with no real elite prospects.

As for trading Bautista and EE, I have been saying this for a while now we will not get a return for them that people are expecting even if they do waive there no trade rights, they could put conditions on it, realistically it will only be teams that are in a playoff race, then they may not want to go to one or two of them for personal reasons or some of the teams won't be in need for them. Basically there won't be a lot of suitors for them, and the ones that are interested will know that they are most likely bidding against themselves and everybody will end up disappointed in the return.

 

[frost king]

Wow, what was that loud thud, looks like we are officially in the basement. We have dropped below the Yankees, and now have 24 losses. The most losses in the division. Is it time to panic yet?