Mitch Marner vs Phil Kessel

[leafsfan1234]

Marner is already better than Kessel has ever been... Hilarious that Kessel is getting any votes when Marner is clearly better than Tavares (who used to destroy Kessel in polls).

 

[BHD]

Marner for sure.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Mitch Marner is on pace for 109 points this year. Obviously only 30 games in - but he's fairly consistent so far, and 30 games isn't 10, so we'll see where he ends up - i'm guessing at ppg at the least. It took Phil 6 years to reach a PPG pace. This is Marner's 3rd year. In 13 career seasons, Phil only has 4 ppg seasons (including current season 28 games in). His last season at 92 points is his best one - after that his best hit 82, 80 points.

He did have 2 really strong playoffs no question - but that's hardly all-time great ones that another star player on a great team couldn't match. Not sure those alone make him some playoff hero you can't pass up.

I get that development isn't linear, and who knows what heights Marner reach and what consistency he ends up having too. But I think based on where he is today, surpassing Kessel as a player is not only well within his reach, but also very likely. So I picked him.

To be fair, PPG isn't what it used to be. Scoring's been up the last couple of years.

 

[Spirit of 67]

This is Marner and it's not particularly close either.

 

[Mac2Rants]

Marner by an inch

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

I pick Marner,

Kessel is a good player but Marner isnt even in his prime yet and he's good.

Kessel was scoring over 30 goals before his prime.

 

[pettersson]

Kessel was scoring over 30 goals before his prime.

Marner isn't a goal-scorer.. he is on pace for ppg

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Marner isn't a goal-scorer.. he is on pace for ppg

I'd expect the playmaker to put up huge points on a top 3 offense in the NHL. Outside of 08-09 with Savard, Kessel spent his prime making his own chances until he finally landed in Pittsburgh.

How would Marner be doing if he were a one man offense? Well, I'm sure, but not nearly as many points for the stats test.

 

[Thenameless]

Marner's starting to look really good, and with a few more years like this he might surpass Kessel. But for now, I'll take the hot dog eater who was drafted last in an all-star game and basically deserved a Conn Smythe.

 

[member 157595]

I'd expect the playmaker to put up huge points on a top 3 offense in the NHL. Outside of 08-09 with Savard, Kessel spent his prime making his own chances until he finally landed in Pittsburgh.

How would Marner be doing if he were a one man offense? Well, I'm sure, but not nearly as many points for the stats test.

To be fair, Marner is the play driver on his line, not Tavares. Marner's hockey IQ is some of the best I've seen in a Leaf uniform ever.

Kessel did a lot here with a revolving cast of bullcrap teammates. It's not his fault that Burke made a horrible trade, but to so many (myself included at times) it was impossible to separate his play from the fact that he was traded for picks that became Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton. He did dog it at times in Toronto, and he needed to be traded, but he's still a lethal player with the puck on his stick...less cerebral and creative than Marner but with a much better shot.

 

[nickdawg95]

I don’t get it.

Phil Kessel had back to back Conn Smythe worthy runs, and then scored 93 points in the following season.

Mitchell Marner’s career high is 69 points.

it's the potential of marner

 

[tony d]

Give me Phil "The Thrill" Kessel.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Marner would be absolutely thrilled if he hit 93 points, and it’s unlikely he hits 40 goals ever in his career.

Numbers also aren’t everything, Kessel had less opportunities in his prime due to an inferior supporting cast.

Also have to factor in the value of goals, which Kessel provided in spades.

Gotta go with Kessel, he’s already done what Marner hopes to do.

 

[BAM]

Marner would be absolutely thrilled if he hit 93 points, and it’s unlikely he hits 40 goals ever in his career.

Numbers also aren’t everything, Kessel had less opportunities in his prime due to an inferior supporting cast.

Also have to factor in the value of goals, which Kessel provided in spades.

Gotta go with Kessel, he’s already done what Marner hopes to do.

Marner also blows Kessel out of the water defensively. Both are great talents, I wouldn't call Kessel a player that could be your best player on a SC contender but I can see it with Marner.

 

[TheProspector]

Marner.... probably. They're actually very similar players. Kessel is faster, and has a better shot. Kessel is also a helluva passer (but he hasn't ever played with a Tavares-level trigger-man). They're both elite in transition - both breaking out of their zone, and skating into the offensive zone with possession. Marner is probably better defensively.

The two together would have been pretty f***in magical.

And with Kessel, we're talking about a guy who hasn't missed a game since 2009.

They're probably of similar value right now, but Marner is obviously still developing, and Kessel is in the middle of what is probably a very long prime.

So, you go Marner, unless your need for a trigger-man outweighs the age advantage Marner brings.

 

[Icebreakers]

Marner.... probably. They're actually very similar players. Kessel is faster, and has a better shot. Kessel is also a helluva passer (but he hasn't ever played with a Tavares-level trigger-man). They're both elite in transition - both breaking out of their zone, and skating into the offensive zone with possession. Marner is probably better defensively.

The two together would have been pretty ****in magical.

And with Kessel, we're talking about a guy who hasn't missed a game since 2009.

They're probably of similar value right now, but Marner is obviously still developing, and Kessel is in the middle of what is probably a very long prime.

So, you go Marner, unless your need for a trigger-man outweighs the age advantage Marner brings.

It says in their prime. So age is irrelevant.

 

[Apotheosis]

Marner now and in the future.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

I'd expect the playmaker to put up huge points on a top 3 offense in the NHL. Outside of 08-09 with Savard, Kessel spent his prime making his own chances until he finally landed in Pittsburgh.

How would Marner be doing if he were a one man offense? Well, I'm sure, but not nearly as many points for the stats test.

Phil is in his 4th season in Pittsburgh and other than last year, where he put up a whopping 40 plus powerplay points, he has not seen an increase playing on a stacked team vs. playing on a **** leafs team. I really question the value of playing on a stacked team when it comes to tacking on points, Kessel benefited from being the go-to guy in every possible opportunity, Marner played last season on our 2nd/3rd line, obviously teammates make a difference but there is an argument to be made that they influence offensive opportunities in both directions.

The season is young but if Marner keeps this up he is indisputably better than Phil ever was, his all around game is definitely better, if Marner drops off to ppg for the rest of the season, which I think is a very reasonable expectation, he will have matched Phil's best ever season in year 3. The smart money here is definitely on Marner.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Phil is in his 4th season in Pittsburgh and other than last year, where he put up a whopping 40 plus powerplay points, he has not seen an increase playing on a stacked team vs. playing on a **** leafs team. I really question the value of playing on a stacked team when it comes to tacking on points, Kessel benefited from being the go-to guy in every possible opportunity, Marner played last season on our 2nd/3rd line, obviously teammates make a difference but there is an argument to be made that they influence offensive opportunities in both directions.

The season is young but if Marner keeps this up he is indisputably better than Phil ever was, his all around game is definitely better, if Marner drops off to ppg for the rest of the season, which I think is a very reasonable expectation, he will have matched Phil's best ever season in year 3. The smart money here is definitely on Marner.

PPG in 2018-2019 is not the same as 82 points in 2011-2012, >PPG in 2013, or 92 points in 2017-2018.

There are 35 players on pace to score 82 points this year, there were 6 82 point scorers in 2011-2012.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

PPG in 2018-2019 is not the same as 82 points in 2011-2012, >PPG in 2013, or 92 points in 2017-2018.

There are 35 players on pace to score 82 points this year, there were 6 82 point scorers in 2011-2012.

Eh, I don't think scoring will look that different than last season by the end of the year, scoring was already up decently last year. Point granted on earlier seasons but again in this scenario we are talking about Marner outscoring those years by 10 points, while playing a more complete game, and again this is his third season. We aren't talking about ppg, we are talking about Marner dropping from his current pace of well above it to close out the season matching Phil's all time best year. It is a very conservative estimation and its worth noting that 100 points is also a realistic estimation.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Eh, I don't think scoring will look that different than last season by the end of the year, scoring was already up decently last year. Point granted on earlier seasons but again in this scenario we are talking about Marner outscoring those years by 10 points, while playing a more complete game, and again this is his third season. We aren't talking about ppg, we are talking about Marner dropping from his current pace of well above it to close out the season matching Phil's all time best year. It is a very conservative estimation and its worth noting that 100 points is also a realistic estimation.

Marner is currently 6th in points which Kessel has done twice over the course of a full season. He’ll have to maintain this just to match Kessel’s best seasons and that doesn’t even take into account that Marner is playing with Tavares while Kessel’s best seasons came with Bozak.

 

[Ryan Michaels]

Marner is currently 6th in points which Kessel has done twice over the course of a full season. He’ll have to maintain this just to match Kessel’s best seasons and that doesn’t even take into account that Marner is playing with Tavares while Kessel’s best seasons came with Bozak.

That's far from a fool proof way to measure success, Jamie Benn has as many art ross's as Ovie. I already addressed this quality of teammate business above. You really think that if Marner hits 100 points but doesn't maintain 6th or higher in the scoring that its not better than Phil's 82 point season? Also by the logic you are subscribing to I am interested to know if you think McDavid has ever topped Patrick Kane's peak? Seeing as Kane had greater distance between his peers and scoring was lower I am guessing not.

Edit: anyhow, just realized your first post in this thread was with the "career high 69 points" garbage, really not to interested in taking this any further. Anyway I think the answer here is Marner, so do most Leaf fans and whadda we know anyway? We only have like the last decade of our viewership for evaluation.

 

[Fatty McLardy]

I doubt Marner will consistently put up the point totals that Kessel did.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Kessel was scoring over 30 goals before his prime.

...and allowing 30 too.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I doubt Marner will consistently put up the point totals that Kessel did.

He'll out assist him and out defend him.